[Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse

Harsha Bhat harsha9519 at gmail.com
Mon Jul 6 08:14:52 CDT 2015


Namaste,

                           Your explanation is wonderful ....But When I
read that....I got a confusion...

                          Here is my Question to your explanation......

First you said,For explanation of first verse

prapanco yadi vidyeta nevarteta nashamshhayaH |

1)
The answer - at the level of vaacyaartha - is: "if the world were seen,
that is if it really existed, it would have dissolved". By the force of
"if" (यदि, yadi), the taatparya (purport) is: "but that is not true; in
reality, the world does not exist". This begets a question: "then what is
that we see around us?" The reply is: "Oh! that is an illusion.
maayaamaatram idam dvaitam. In Reality, there is no second to Brahman.
advaitam paramaarthataH "

2)
Second, amongst the other uses of " if ", it (the word *if*)  is used to
express an hypothetical situation. Example: "*If* I were to be the Prime
Minister of India, I would do ...".

3)
The word "if" denotes that in fact it does not exist, but for the purpose
of vyavahaara, if we take it to be existing, then our contention is that it
would disappear.

Meaning the presence of word yadi Vidyeta tells that this world doesnot
exist ...as there is the presence of word yadi....

Similarly

For the statement...
"vikalpo vinivarteta kalpitao yadi kenacit"

You said....
VikalpaH is manifoldnessvinivarteta means "it would return or
disappear"kalpitaH is imagined or conceivedyadi = ifkenacit = by something
or somebody. Here we take it as "by some reason", i.e. for some purpose.

There the presence of the word Yadi  in yadi kenachit.....

Will say that this world is not imagined by some body(athma)....the
presence of yadi here tells so no...If we take the same logic you have
given above...where you said yadi vidhyeta as na vidheya......so yadi kena
chit has to be na kenachit....right???

Here is the Another problem...

If this vikalpa in the form of kalpita...(or kalpana)...exista or not?...if
it exists . .advaitha..fails as there are two things brahma and kalpana...
Because kalpana should exist for it to be removed...
If not..exist...
..
Without kalpana...what is the purpose of it to be removed through vedas
..to get moksha....that means we are already in moksha......which is self
contradictory as we have to get moksha through removal of avidhya.....

Please tell me weather this avidhya exists or not??

Here the problem you said for world dissolves..for first verse...

prapanco yadi vidyeta nevarteta nashamshhayaH |

Also exists for the last verse...where avidhya dissolves  Right???

"vikalpo vinivarteta kalpitao yadi kenacit"







On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:51 AM, Durga Janaswamy via Advaita-l <
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:

> Hari Om,
> Pranams.
>
> You wrote:
> "In the case of a Jnaanin, the differences in the phenomenal world are not
> perceived."
> "The moment this Truth is internalized, differences vanish."
>
> Question: Will a Jnaanin see difference between cooked food and cow dung?
>
> Thanks and regards
> -- durga prasad
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2015 10:34:42 +0000
> > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> > From: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> >
> > Namaste
> > Here are explanations, to the best of my ability, to the two questions
> asked.
> > "vikalpo vinivarteta kalpitao yadi kenacit"
> > If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has been
> conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has been
> fulfilled.
> > VikalpaH is manifoldnessvinivarteta means "it would return or
> disappear"kalpitaH is imagined or conceivedyadi = ifkenacit = by something
> or somebody. Here we take it as "by some reason", i.e. for some purpose.
> > 'thereby causing the phenomenal world to disappear'
> >
> > The settled view - siddhaanta - is that the phenomenal world is not
> eternal, and hence not Real. The manifoldness that is apparent will be
> understood to be not Real when one knows the Real nature, tattva, of
> Brahman. So, it is said that in the case of a Jnaanin, the differences in
> the phenomenal world are not perceived. How did these differences - so real
> for people like me - disappear? By the jnaana that Brahman in the One
> without the second, that everything is Brahman. The moment this Truth is
> internalized, differences vanish, scriptures say.
> > RegardsN. Siva Senani
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> > To: Sivasenani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, 5 July 2015 8:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >
> > Please tell the vakhyartha of  vikalpo vinivarteta kalpito yadi kenacit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 5, 2015 at 2:45 AM, Durga Janaswamy via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >
> > Please elaborate this statement
> >
> > 'thereby causing the phenomenal world to disappear'
> >
> > thanks and regards
> > -- durga
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2015 04:52:30 +0000
> >> To: harsha9519 at gmail.com; advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >> From: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> >>
> >> Namaste
> >> Let me explain the line in question to the best of my abilities. Before
> that, if a few preliminaries about usage of certain terms are clarified,
> then effective communication might happen.
> >> A phenomenon is what is seen; it is opposed to a noumenon, which is the
> Reality. So the term "phenomenal world" means the world that which is being
> seen. Second, amongst the other uses of " if ", it (the word if)  is used
> to express an hypothetical situation. Example: "If I were to be the Prime
> Minister of India, I would do ...". Finally, in a dialectical style of
> expounding philosophy, to understand a given sentence properly, its place
> in the dialogue needs to be ascertained. For instance, I inserted the
> present sentence in a made-up dialogue to give its sense :
> >> 1. P: You say that understanding the reality of Advaita is through the
> dissolution of the world2. Q: Yes3. P: Then, we have a problem. Tell me
> this: For something to dissolve, it must first exist, right? Like we have a
> lump of salt, which initially exists. Then, we throw it in water and it
> dissolves.4. Q: For things like salt and sugar, it is, indeed so.5. P: So
> the world must exist in reality for it to dissolve. What I don't understand
> is how you can deny something that you see, feel and live! If it
> disappears, who causes it to disappear?6. Q: It is not necessary for
> something to exist in reality, for it to be seen, felt, lived and then for
> it to disappear; nor is an extraneous agent required for the disappearance.
> Think of somebody who sees a rope in the night and mistakes it to be
> snake.7. P: Ok.8. Q: Once somebody brings a lamp, it becomes clear that
> snake did not exist.9. P: Yes.10. Q: So, for this person, initially the
> snake did exist; consequently he was afraid, there was perspiration on his
> face and his throat went dry. And, then with light he got proper cognition
> and the snake dissolved itself. So if the phenomenal reality of snake is
> taken as existing, then, of course, it would have disappeared. Similarly,
> "If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have
> disappeared."
> >> In the above sentence, we are talking about the phenomenal world - the
> world as it is perceived, that is a world of duality. The word "if" denotes
> that in fact it does not exist, but for the purpose of vyavahaara, if we
> take it to be existing, then our contention is that it would disappear.
> How? The noumenal reality is Brahman alone. Avidyaa is the reason for the
> phenomenal world. So the agent which removes avidyaa - samyag jnaana -
> would remove the cause of this phenomenal world thereby causing the
> phenomenal world to disappear. That is how something which is unreal can
> exist and also disappear.
> >> RegardsN. Siva Senani
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> >> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>; sivasenani at yahoo.com
> >> Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015 6:39 PM
> >> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >>
> >> Namaste...                             First of all,Thank you for your
> wonderful explanation...
> >>                           My question is about this line.....of your
> explanation
> >> "If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would have
> disappeared."..
> >> I din't get the meaning of this sentence....If the world is really
> existed ,then it will never disappear no???......
> >> How Upanishad says if this world really existed THEN IT WILL DISAPPEAR
> ????
> >> Real things will never disappear...it will always exists...So, how they
> say o??
> >> Regards,Harsha Bhat
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 4:28 PM, Subu S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> ///You are already that Brahman, therefore, there is no question of
> reaching Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman alone.  W////
> >>
> >> namO namaha
> >> aruNachalA .. aruNachalA .. aruNachalA !
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Subu
> >>
> >> mail_to_subu at yahoo.com
> >>       From: RAMESH RAMANAN <rameshramanan at yahoo.co.uk>
> >>  To: Subu S <mail_to_subu at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for Advaita
> Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >>  Sent: Friday, 3 July 2015, 7:35
> >>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >>
> >> Dear Sri Subuji,
> >> Pranams,
> >>
> >> You are already that Brahman, therefore, there is no question of
> reaching Brahman. There is nothing but Brahman alone.  We mistake the word
> to be real as it is and apart from Brahman and hence, our mistaken notions
> of being apart from Brahman and our need to reach and merge into Brahman. A
> devotee once asked Sri Ramana how can I  reach, grow, expand and stabilize
> in Brahman (Something to this effect, not necessarily in the same words).
> Sri Ramana told him: "You are already that Brahman, there is no question of
> reaching, expanding or stabilizing. Brahman alone is real. You need to only
> get rid of your ignorance that you are different or separate from Brahman.
> Nothing else is required.
> >>
> >> Pranams, Ramesh Ramanan.
> >>
> >>
> >>      On Friday, 3 July 2015, 0:02, Subu S via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>  For a seeker like me who stumbled into _this_mini_universe_ i.e. this
> Advaita list, the knowledge of members is like an ocean
> >>
> >> The scholarly posts are so deep, they are exhilarating and need deep
> understanding
> >>
> >> ///18. If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has
> been conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has
> been fulfilled. When, as a result of the teaching, Self-knowledge has been
> maintained, the manifold will cease to exist./////
> >>
> >> May we all reach that stage where everything dissolves into that
> Brahman !
> >>
> >> Namo Namaha
> >>  --
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Subu
> >>
> >> mail_to_subu at yahoo.com
> >>       From: Siva Senani Nori via Advaita-l <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >>  To: Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>; A discussion group for
> Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >>  Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2015, 23:13
> >>  Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >>
> >> Namaste
> >>
> >> GauDapaada wrote Kaarikas on the Maa. Up. divided into four prakaraNas.
> This is the tradition in Advaita. Others take some or all of these Kaarikas
> as Upanishads.
> >>
> >> Given below is the translation of Swami Lokeswarananda of the Kaarikas
> you quoted from Aagama-prakaraNa, under Mantra 7:
> >>
> >> 17. If the phenomenal world really existed, then, of course, it would
> have disappeared. But it does not exist. It is only an illusion. The fact
> of the matter is that Brahman alone is real.
> >>
> >> 18. If the manifold - such as teacher, disciple and teaching - has been
> conceived of only for some purpose, it will end when that purpose has been
> fulfilled. When, as a result of the teaching, Self-knowledge has been
> maintained, the manifold will cease to exist.
> >>
> >> These are accurate vaakyaarthas. The key to understanding lies in the
> unsaid questions of the opponent:
> >>
> >> First he asks: "If you say that understanding the reality of Advaita is
> through the dissolution of the world, we have a problem. Either the world
> exists in reality or it does not. It cannot be the first because if it were
> so, then the Reality would be that the world exists. It cannot be the
> second because something needs to exist for it to dissolve."
> >>
> >> The answer - at the level of vaacyaartha - is: "if the world were seen,
> that is if it really existed, it would have dissolved". By the force of
> "if" (यदि, yadi), the taatparya (purport) is: "but that is not true; in
> reality, the world does not exist". This begets a question: "then what is
> that we see around us?" The reply is: "Oh! that is an illusion.
> maayaamaatram idam dvaitam. In Reality, there is no second to Brahman.
> advaitam paramaarthataH "
> >>
> >> This is further clarified in the poorvaardha of verse 18. "If for some
> reason [1], the vikalpaH - manifoldness - has been conceived, then that
> will dissolve"
> >>
> >> I hope the meaning is clear.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>
> >> N. Siva Senani
> >>
> >> [1] Here "kenacit" has to be taken "kenacit kaaraNena", and not
> "kenacit purusheNa" or "kenacit aNgena" (like buddhi), because illlusion is
> due to avidyaa, not any particular person or an organ in him. Further the
> word "upadeSAt" in the uttaraardha of the Kaarikaa suggests that UpadeSa is
> the reason for splitting the One Brahman into teacher, student and subject.
> >>
> >>>________________________________
> >>> From: Harsha Bhat via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >>>To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta <
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> >>>Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2015 7:05 PM
> >>>Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Please tell the meaning of this Verse
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Please Can any learned scholars Tell the meaning of Above Verse...
> >>>
> >>>I here mainly required is Vakhyartha in advaitha point of view...
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>Harsha Bhat
> >>>
> >>>On Sat, Jun 27, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Harsha Bhat <harsha9519 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Sir,
> >>>>
> >>>>              Can any one tell the meaning (Mainly Vakhyartha) of this
> >>>> verse from Madukhya Upanishad......in advaitha point of view....
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> “prapanco yadi vidyeta nevarteta nashamshhayaH |
> >>>> Maayaamaatram idam Dwaitam
> >>>> Advaitam paramaarthataH || ”
> >>>> “ vikalpo vinivarteta kalpito yadi kenacit |
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Some this is the verse from Madukhya Upanishad...and some say it is
> from
> >>>> Goudapada's Madukhya Karika.......Why this uncertainty...
> >>>>
> >>>> What is the exact difference between Madukhya karika and Mandukhya
> >>>> upanishad.....
> >>>>
> >>>> Please answer...
> >>>>
> >>>> Harsha Bhat
> >>>>
> >>>_______________________________________________
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