[Advaita-l] Creation & Creator
Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l
advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Tue Jun 17 16:41:22 CDT 2014
Yes, at the vyavahAra level, self-realization takes place at specific times to specific people. Yes, the avidyA that is destroyed with the rise of jnAna is with respect to that jIva, not other beings.
Yet, the issue with all these lines of discussion is this. They stay at the level of vyavahAra, at the level of the individual jIva, presuming the very multiplicity that advaita transcends. If all that is thought to be real, then there can be really no moksha in the advaita sense. When we think that in the macro sense, avidyA continues, is therefore ananta, and that creation is eternal, we also need to ask, whose is that avidyA? One or more jIvas that are not yet liberated? If so, then we have just presumed that there are multiple real jIvas, distinct from one another. It will follow that the difference between jIvas is also eternal. That would then not be advaita, but only dvaita, and we might as well affirm the reality and eternality of jIva-jIva bheda, jIva-ISvara bheda etc.
We need to make the leap from the vyavahAra to the paramArtha. That leap is enabled by Sankara bhagavatpAda, as he is very careful to say, "Adir na vidyate." He does not say, "Adir eva nAsti" and indeed goes out of his way to point out that the word anAdI in the gItA verse quoted below should not be split as "na AdI anAdI."
Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2014 20:52:24 +0530
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator
From: hschandramouli at gmail.com
To: svidyasankar at hotmail.com; advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
Sri Vidyashankarji wrote
<< Please note that avidyA is also constantly said to
be anAdi in vedAnta discourse. Obviously, this is never meant in the same sense
as saying that brahman is anAdi.>>.
What exactly is the difference as far as “
anaditva “ is concerned. Please clarify. The only difference is that avidya is
subject to sa-vikara, sa-avayava, sa-anta
( in parts ) etc. Otherwise in so far as anaditva is concerned, I thought there
was no difference from the “ anaditva” of Brahman . Though avidya is considered to be
sa-anta , because it is destroyed on the rising of jnana, still it is only in
respect of the particular jiva only. In the macro sense, it continues and is
ananta also from that perspective. When it is remembered that it is the Shakti
of Brahman, it automatically means it also is anadi and anata just as Brahman ,
but again with modification etc.
<< This is actually a false construction, because
self-realization is really not an experience, nor an event in time for anybody
anywhere, although it appears to happen at specific instances of time to
specific people. That is the whole point of all advaita vedAnta teaching.>> .
This really needs
elaboration. We are dealing with the situation as obtains in the vyavaharika
plane. At this level surely selfrealization does indeed take place at specific
times to specific people. How can it be held to be otherwise ? I am not clear. Please clarify.
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Vidyasankar Sundaresan via Advaita-l <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org> wrote:
I presume you are referring to the verse
प्रकृतिं पुरुषं चैव विद्ध्यनादी उभावपि ।विकारांश्च गुणांश्चैव विद्धि प्रकृतिसंभवान् ॥
You have to clarify what you mean by the word eternal, in your question. Please note that avidyA is also constantly said to be anAdi in vedAnta discourse. Obviously, this is never meant in the same sense as saying that brahman is anAdi.
What fuels creation despite self-realization by an individual human being? If you take the verse above in the entire context of the 13th chapter, the answer is obvious. It is ISvara, the जगदुत्पत्तिस्थितिप्रलयहेतुः. "When all beings have self-realization eventually" is a hypothetical situation that views self-realization(s) as multiple events of a particular experience, that happens within the arrow of time. This is actually a false construction, because self-realization is really not an experience, nor an event in time for anybody anywhere, although it appears to happen at specific instances of time to specific people. That is the whole point of all advaita vedAnta teaching.
> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2014 08:20:12 -0700
> To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Subject: [Advaita-l] Creation & Creator
> From: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> I would like to know from Advaita perspective if creation is also eternal. We all know that Creator is eternal, but how about creation? Bhagawad Gita 13/20 says both are eternal.
> When self-realization puts end to birth in the samsara, and when self-realization is the final goal of all beings, it is just a matter of time when this would happen to all. What is sure is that all would eventually experience it, and thus there is no birth. When all beings have self-realization eventually, then, where is the need for creation. But Bhagawad Gita 13/20 says both are eternal. My question is what fuels the eternal continuity of creation despite self-realization? I am sure, this topic might have been discussed in the past but I might have missed it. Please pardon me for asking it again.
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