[Advaita-l] Who Slept Very Well? - Part IV
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com
Fri Feb 7 08:56:20 CST 2014
Baskarji - PraNAms
First thanks for your kind comments.
I also know based on your posts in the past that there are some differences between your understanding and mine. The write up is mostly based on Pancadashi 11th ch. of Shree Vidyaranya - obviously comes under later aachaaryas after Shankara bhagavat paada. However Vidyaranya quotes Shruti statements to justify his writings.
I concentrate mostly on the knowledge and my understanding - hence as I had mentioned before I would not remember and therefore would not be able to give you references you need in order justify my understanding. Shree Subbuji or other scholars who are on top of these things perhaps can give you those references.
I am responding to your comments again based on my understanding without getting in to back and forth discussions on these.
On Fri, 2/7/14, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
1. It is an advaitic experience without
knowledge of the absolute truth
– indicating that self-realization does not involve an
non-duality by shunning or shutting of the mind, since we
this all the time when we go to deep sleep state. No one
gets up from
deep-sleep with advaitic knowledge or with self-realization.
> You are absolutely right prabhuji. Though
there is absolute ekatva in
sushupti, we donot realize that since there is agrahaNAtmaka
this state from jeeva perspective who is analyzing this
state from waking.
jnAna is required to realize this 'ekatva' in
sushupti. And that jnAna
cannot come in sushupti since there is an absence of upAdhi.
Sada: In suhupti as pointed in the rest of the articles - there is still upaadhi. Upaadhi will not be there only when there is videha mukti. For jiivanmukta it is upahita chaitanya that recognizes consciousness that I am is pure and all-pervading consciousness - It is like pot-space (while pot upaadhi still present) recognizes that I am the total space while still remaining in the pot.
In sushupti - the upaadhi , as pointed out, is the anandamaya kosha which is nothing but vijnaanamaya kosha in unmanifested form. There is also the chidaabhaasa - where pure all pervading consciousness getting reflected in the anandamaya kosha. The object of awareness is the knowledge of the absence of all dualities.
Your last statement should be jnaana cannot come in sushupti since the vijnana maya kosha is in unmanifested form and what is there is akhanda ajnaana vRitti. These were discussed in the previous parts. Knowledge can come only with intellect using an appropriate pramAna - and in this case Vedanta pramaana. Hence upaadhi is there but not in operating condition.
3. In the deep sleep state, jnaani sleeps as
jnaani and ajnaani sleeps
> Yes, I see myself as same ajnAni only everday
after 'sushupti' :-))
This is because the mind that has the knowledge or ignorance
of one’s true
nature is folded with its knowledge to be in potential form.
or ajnaanam of oneself is in potential form in the
> if the jnAni's paramArtha jnAna is just
another 'data' in his mind,
what happens to his jnAna when the jnAni suffers from
or brain-dead coma?? I hope you are not saying here
'yard stick' to
ascertain the jnAna of the jnAni is 'data' in his brain
how actively he uses it. I think Sri Dennis Waite
prabhuji had asked this
question some years back.
Sada: Jnaanam involves clear understanding that I am not this upaadhi but I am that which enlivens the Upaadhi. I am the all pervading consciousness that illumines this as well as all other upaadhis in the universe. That is jnaanam gained using the local mind.
>From then Jaanin knows who is in spite of the conditions of the BMI. Knowledge once gained will not be dissolved.
The upaadhi's problem belongs to praarabda karma. Jnaani understood that He was never these upaadhiis in the past, in the present and in the future.
Hence what happens to the upaadhi's is not much concern - as long as they are functioning Iswara may use those upaadhis for the benefit of the totality which we call as loka kalyaanam.
Here the above statements pertains to the one who is jnaana niShTa or sthitaprajna.
Now if you look at your statements above you can see the problems.
Jnaani does not suffer even if the BMI suffers due to praarabda. That is what jnaanam means.
Knowledge is not some data - then it is paroxajnaanam - aparoxajnaanam is like the 10th man recognition.
If jnaani cannot use the BMI -he let it undergo its own destruction as per its praarabda - since he is using it only for the benefit of others while he is reveling in himself by himself.
It appears from the discussion deep-sleep is being described
similar to turIyam while in fact in the description of
scripture negates the deep-sleep state as part of mithyaa
> I would have appreciated if you would have given
references. Anyway, one shruti says Atma has three
avasthA-s and all the
three avasthA-s are mere svapna..( tasya traya avasathA
But when the sushupti is seen from the sushupti avastha
(anubhavAtmaka drushti) without bringing the waking mind's
'sushupti' viveka itself is enough to know our real svarUpa
Bhaskar - look at the mantra 7 if Madukya Up. where the so-called turIyam is described.
It negates all the three states right away. I did mention the word in my write up - na prajnaana ghanam - that is the negation of the deep-sleep state as it is being referred to as prajnaana ghanam - why it is so, has been discussed in the other parts of the post. Hence it is there all the three states but yet different from all the three state. It is not a separate state but is called as the fourth state just to distinguish from the three states - hence is not deep-sleep state.
The confusion can be due to the misunderstanding that pure
involves objectless awareness as the description indicates.
Even if one
takes that operational definition, the deep sleep state is
> again I beg to differ from this. The
statement the deep sleep state is
NOT objectless awareness' does not find any place in
bhagavatpAda's bhAshya...there is a bhAshya vakya that says
that nAma &
rUpa will be in avyAkruta rUpa in sushupti which will become
jAgrat and svapna. Sushupti is the state where there
is no objects hence
there is no adhyAsa there. Here Atman is sarvOpAdhi
vinirmukta hence he
will be in his sva-svarUpa.
Sada: Bhaskarji - No problem. you can differ.
However, the sushupti is not completely objectless since as been pointed out that the object is - ignorance itself - expressed as knowledge of the absence of any perceivable objects. I have discussed this in the series itself using pitch-dark room where I do not see any objects due to darkness but I see the darkness- The darkness is the object of my knowledge. Same way the knowledge of undifferentiated ignorance or avidyaa vRitti is the object in the deep sleep state. This aspect is also is evident from the universal experience - that I did not know any thing is also knowledge which I gained in the deep-sleep state and report after waking up. That there is no subject-object duality is also knowledge. Scripture says there is no desire for objects since no object is perceived.
Object that are not there are perceptible objects just as in the pitch dark room - Please study the other parts - these are discussed elaborately in the post.
Your next comment is again based on the assumption that there is no upaadhi in the deep sleep state. There will not be any upaadhi only when the videha mukti comes. Till there is upaadhi in the gross or subtle forms - in laya and in pralaya too. Since your comments are already been covered I would refrain from adding any more.
Thanks again for helping to clarify what I wrote.
In deep sleep state we are aware of the homogeneous
ignorance just as
stated above with example of pitch dark room where we are
objectless-ness. In both pitch dark room and in deep
sleep state we have
an object for awareness; darkness in the pitch dark room and
the deep-sleep state.
> again here also if we see this avasthA from that
avasthA itself, shruti
says he (prAjna) is sarvajna and sarva shakta..and he will
be in his
nirupAdhika svarUpa. In sushupti jeeva attains ekatva with
brahma hence he
does not have vishesha jnAna of nAma rUpa clarifies
AtmaivaH anyatvapratyupasthApaka hetOH avidyAyAH abhAvAt,
shankara clarifies there is an absence of 'anyatva hetu
For that reason only we can say – I do not see or know
anything there in
the pitch dark room or in the deep-sleep state.
> No reason here is not ignorance but
'ekatva'. The hetu for not seeing
the 'vishesha' is 'ekatva' clearly says shankara in bhAshya.
And as you
yourself said in one of your series, here Atma in
hence there is no taint of avidyA..ashareeraM vAva saMtaM na
Absence of non-existence of an object or objects is
knowledge stated as
anupalabdi pramANa. As a final
note again – self-realization does not necessarily
awareness but recognition that I am awareness with or
without thoughts or
vRittis or object-thoughts. Hence, advaitic knowledge
that I am pure existence-consciousness-limitless with or
without the world
of plurality present since the plurality that is present is
and therefore cannot disturb my advaitic state.
> plurality presented here as separate 'plurality'
is mithya, but when
this plurality seen from its adhishtAna ( like seeing ONLY
upAdAna gold in
bangle, ring, bracelet etc. in nAma rUpa is satya only not
jagat is nothing but vishesha darshana of that kAraNa and
have its own existence apart from that adhishtAna kAraNa.
> Once again, this is my understanding..you are
welcome to disagree with
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
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