[Advaita-l] Do not bring Sankhya into Suddha Sankara Advaita

Venkatesh Murthy vmurthy36 at gmail.com
Mon May 20 06:47:43 CDT 2013


Namaste Sri Rajaram

I strongly disagree with your statement because you have not gone through
all my earlier e-mails and you will find evidence given by the respected
Swamiji.
Kindly don't make irresponsible statements.


On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 3:54 PM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:

> I disagree with Sri Venkatesh because he does not substantiate his charge
> against post sankara advaitins with proper evidence.
>
> However, is it valid assertion that in advaita Ishwara is never a creation
> of jIvA? In Eka jIva vAdA, the jIvA ascribes jagat kAranatvam to an anAdi
> Ishwara using an anAdi shruti as pramana but they exist due avidya, which
> has jIvA as the locus and its drshti (sankalpa) as the basis.
> Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>
> Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 11:56:31
> To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<
> advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
>         <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Do not bring Sankhya into Suddha Sankara Advaita
>
> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com
> >wrote:
>
> > Namaste
> >
> > Sankara Vedanta is saying Avidya is natural for men. Naisargika.
>
>
> In the Br.Up. 1.4.10 bhashya Shankara establishes avidyA for Brahman (not
> jIva).
>
>
>
> > The Avidya is nothing but Adhyaasa. This is Superimposition of Self and
> > not Self. The Avidyaa is making us to imagine a Ishwara and His Maayaa
> > Shakti. The Maayaa Shakti is the cause of the World. This means the whole
> > World is imagined through Adhyaasa.
> >
>
> That one is kartA/bhoktA, sukhI, duHkhI, is what is imagined due to
> avidyA.  That there is Ishwara as the jagatkAraNam and it is His shakti
> that creates the world, that Ishwara is the karmaphaladAtA, etc. are never
> the imagination of the jIva.  It is shruti that gives / informs one on
> these concepts.
>
> That the entire samsaAra, bandha-mokSha vyavasthA, etc, is within mAyA is
> not disputed.  But to say that Ishwara, shruti, etc. are all jIvakalpanA
> has no basis in Advaita shAstra.  Shankara has, in more than one place,
> demonstrated that avidya is a viShaya for the jiva/aspirant, through
> dialogues, in the B G B and vehemently denies that avidyA is  subjective.
> It is on the reasoning that it is objective, vishaya, for the sAkshI that
> Shankara establishes that it (avidyA) is dRshya, mithya.   If it is
> subjective, it would never go.
>
> In the sUtasamhitA chapter 2 TIkA, Swami Vidyaranya says:
>
> //sA (Ishwarasya shaktiH) cha sattvarajastamoguNAtmikA api na
> sAnkhyAbhimata pradhAnavat  svatantrA, kintu Ishvarasya paratantrA
> ityaashayena shaktirityuktam. 'shaktiriti paratantratAmAha' iti
> vivaraNAchAryAH'.  //
>
> [She (Ishvara's shakti) is of the nature of sattva rajas and tamo guNa-s
> and NOT an independent entity as admitted by the sAnkhya shAstra but is a
> dependent entity under Ishwara.  With this in mind Veda Vyasa says in the
> sUtasamhitA...shakti.. The vivaraNAchAryAs have said 'shakti is said to be
> dependent entity'.]
>
> Further says Vidyaranya here:
>
> //ittham bhogya bhoktR bhoga vibhAga kalpikAyAH mAyAyaaH kalpitatvAt
> mAyAtItaparashivavyatirekeNa paramArthato na bhaava iti//
>
> [Thus, the projectrix, mAyA,  of the divisions of enjoyment, enjoyer and
> enjoyed is Herself an unreal entity, and she has no existence apart from
> that of Supreme Shiva who is beyond mAyA.]
>
> In the recent meet at Bangalore it was clarified that the above is the
> shAstrakRta kalpanA for adhyAropa-apavAda purpose and not jIvakRta
> kalpanaa.
>
> Thus, Vidyaranya is making clear that the VivaraNAchAryas hold:
>
> 1. the VedAntic mAyA  to be different from the sAnkhya-s' and as a
> dependent entity functioning under Shiva   (....kinkarI yasya sA mAyA
> shankaraachAryam Ashraye..)
>
> 2.  mAyA, being herself unreal, has no reality/existence  apart from
> Ishawra.
>
> By saying this Vidyaranya is clarifying the obvious Vivarana and ShAnkaran
> position that mAyA in vedanta is not like the sAnkhyan prakRti/pradhAna and
> that mAyA has no reality.
>
> If Sri SSS had studied the vivarana positions and understood them correctly
> (as shown above) he would not have mistaken it to be taking a sAnkhyan line
> and the 'bhAvarUpa' adjective really means: it does not have an independent
> reality/existence.
>
> What is paratantra satya is no different from the rope-snake.  The
> superimposed snake is said to 'exist' only on the basis of the
> existence/reality of the rope.  No one can give a non rope-snake example
> for the concept of  paratantra satya.  For, just like the rope is the
> sattAprada for the superimposed snake, Brahman is the sattAprada for the
> mAyA (and through it, to the entire world/jivas) which is a dependent
> tattva.  Any paratantrasatya entity is devoid of its own
> reality/existence:  'sva sattA shUnyatve sati anyasattA-adhInasattAkatvam
> paratantra satyatvam' is the comprehensive, crisp definition for the
> paratantra satyatvam.
>
> All systems admit only a dependent reality for the world/jivas.  It is only
> advaita that explicitly says they are mithyA.  The others do not say this
> for fear of becoming non-different from Advaita.
>
> regards
> subrahmanian.v
>
>
>
> >
> > Summary - Adi Sankara is saying Adhyaasa is responsible for Maayaa. Maaya
> > is Avidyaa Kalpitaa. Imagined through Ignorance. But Post Sankara
> > sub-commentators are saying Avidyaa and Maayaa are both same.
> >
> > Good and Bad parts of Maayaa are both imagined only. They are False.
> >
> >
> > On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 10:28 AM, <rajaramvenk at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Dear Sri Venkatesh,
> > >
> > > Please compile the references to the use of avidya and maya in the
> works
> > > of Gaudapada, Sankara and post Sankarite advaitins. It will help see
> > > objectively if there has been any change. IMO, Sankara uses maya in two
> > > connotations - a. positive -  the aisvara or daiva shakthi (e.g.
> > mayarupam,
> > > this divine maya) and b. negative - the crooked cause of illusion (e.g.
> > > kutastha). He uses avidya as synonymous with the latter use of maya.
> > >
> > > Best Regards
> > > Rajaram Venkataramani
> > > Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Venkatesh Murthy <vmurthy36 at gmail.com>
> > > Sender: advaita-l-bounces at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > > Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 10:03:39
> > > To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta<
> > > advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Reply-To: A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta
> > >         <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> > > Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Do not bring Sankhya into Suddha Sankara
> Advaita
> > >
> > > Namaste
> > >
> > > Page 42 Essays on Vedanta -
> > >
> > > 'In the face of the above unmistakable definitions of both Avidya and
> > Maya
> > > the sub- commentaries on Sankara Bhashya have started a procession of
> the
> > > blind led by the blind in emphatically affirming the identity of both
> > > Avidya and Maya and defining Avidya not as subjective ignorance but as
> > > something objective clinging to Atman and thus distorting his nature by
> > > converting the all-pure Brahman into a transmigratory soul by
> enveloping
> > > his essential nature'.
> > >
> > > Page 45 -
> > > 'Ramanujacharya for instance confounds Sankara's teaching of Avidya and
> > > Maya with the Post Sankara theory of Avidya and with the Maya doctrine
> of
> > > the Buddhists. He has considerably exercised himself in undertaking an
> > > elaborate refutation of the Avidya Theory and in calling Advaitins
> > > opprobriously 'Pracchanna Mayavadins' (Crypto Buddhists).And Dr. Murti
> > has
> > > these remarks with regard to Sankara and Gaudapada -
> > > 'Gaudapada and Sankara merely bring out the implications of this
> > standpoint
> > > (of the older Vedantins) when they declare change, difference and
> > plurality
> > > as illusory; they formulate the complementary doctrine of Avidya to
> > explain
> > > the appearance of difference'. C.P.B. Page 122
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >
> > > -Venkatesh
> > > _______________________________________________
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> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards
> >
> > -Venkatesh
> > _______________________________________________
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-- 
Regards

-Venkatesh



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