[Advaita-l] Bondage and Liberation - Logical or Illogical?

[V Subrahmanian]

The link works for me.  I just tested.  Try copying the URL on to your
address bar and access.

subrahmanian.v

On Mon, Jan 28, 2013 at 4:47 AM, Ranga Rathnam <sranga1955 at hotmail.com>wrote:

>
>
> The link (mandukya bashya) doesn't seem to be working!
>
> regards
> Rangarathnam
>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 17:12:59 +0530
> > From: v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> > To: advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org
> > Subject: [Advaita-l] Bondage and Liberation - Logical or Illogical?
> >
> > The following is sourced from
> > http://in.groups.yahoo.com/group/SUMADHWASEVA/message/23121
> >
> >
> > // See the beauty of how Mahan Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha (Paramaguru of Sri
> > Raghavendra Tirtha)
> > explains the illogic of Adwaitham through a simple analogy or Upamaanam.
> > Mahan Sri Vijayeendra Tirthar jestingly asks:* "Will a mother willingly
> and
> > knowingly give poison to her child and, then also give an anti-dote for
> the
> > poison? The answer is NO. Similarly, would anyone knowingly enter/
> > jump into dirt and then clean oneselves up from dirt? The answer is NO.
> So,
> > why would the Lord create Jivatmas and knowingly put Avidya, Agyanam into
> > them that then makes them think that they are different from the
> Paramatma
> > which supposedly they are not, as alluded by the Adwaitins? Then why
> would
> > the Lord also give them ways and means as prescribed by Adwaitins (i.e.,
> > study of scriptures, atma vichaara etc. etc.) by sending a messenger who
> > propounds Adwaita, as an anti-dote to overcome this Avidya? Similarly,
> why
> > would the Jivaatmas enter into dirt knowingly if they were originally
> > unsullied that makes them deluded and, then later study scriptures to
> > realise that they are the same as Brahman???Just does not make any
> logical
> > sense, isn't it?  Same with Adwaitham - just doesn't make any logical
> > sense.  People hear these Adwaitham from some Swami ---nanda (there are
> so
> > many of these Adwaitham propounding Swami ---nanda) or read their books
> and,
> > then repeat what they have said like a parrot or copy and paste from
> their
> > sites without thinking.*  //
> >
> > A Response to the purported criticism by Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha
> >
> > [ Sri Vijayeendra Tirtha (1539 - 1595 AD) a revered Acharya of the Dvaita
> > school is said to have been a contemporary of Sri Appayya Dikshitar.
> > According to the Madhwas both have had  a number of debates and  Appayya
> > lost every time. I have heard from a research scholar that both schools
> > record about a particular  between the two and both schools have written
> in
> > their books that  their side won and the other, upon the humiliation,
> made
> > a secret exit from the location.]
> >
> > Sri Madhwacharya in his bhashya for the Mandukya passage
> >
> > //anAdi mAyayA supto yadA jIvaH prabuddhyate
> > ajam anidram asvapnam advaitam budhyate tadA // [This is a kArikA (1.16)
> as
> > per Advaitins and a shruti passage for Dvaitins]
> >
> > [16 When the jiva, asleep under the influence of beginningless mAyA, is
> > awakened, it then realizes the  birthless, sleepless and dreamless
> > Non-duality. ]
> >
> > The Mandukya bhashya of Madhwa is available in this pdf:
> >
> > http://www.dvaita.net/pdf/shruti/manduka/mbtcomm.pdf<
> http://http//www.dvaita.net/pdf/shruti/manduka/mbtcomm.pdf>
> >
> > Here the mantra of this Upanishad is numbered 2.8 in Sanskrit numerals on
> > page 11 of the pdf:
> >
> > Sri Madhwacharya comments by citing a 'prakAshikA' verse:
> >
> > This verse that comes as the commentary for the above mantra can be
> found a
> > few lines below the above mantra on page 12 of the pdf:
> >
> > anAdimAyayA viShNorichchayA svApito yadA
> >
> > tayA prabodhamAyAti tadA viShNum prapashyati.
> >
> > [Due to anAdimAyA which means ViShNu's Will, the jIva has been made
> to/put
> > into the slumber of samsara. When the jIva, owing to  ViShNu's Will wakes
> > up, then he gets the vision/realization of ViShNu.]
> >
> >
> >    1. From the above it is clear that according to Madhwa the jiva is in
> >    samsara because Vishnu has willed so. And the jiva's waking up to the
> >    asamsAric truth is also due to the Lord's will.  Sri Vijayendra
> Tirtha's
> >    analogy of: //*a mother willingly and knowingly giving poison to her
> >    child and, then also giving an antidote for the poison // accurately
> fits
> >    the commentarial statement of Madhwa.  For, samsAra is something to
> be got
> >    rid of even for the Dvaitins.  And The Lord (mother) has caused the
> jiva to
> >    be in samsara (poison) by willing so.  **And by providing **the jiva
> >    ways and means (antidote) as prescribed by dwaitins (i.e., study of
> >    scriptures, bhakti, atma vichaara etc. etc.) by sending a messenger
> who
> >    propounds dwaita which is the antidote for the poison of samsara the
> Lord
> >    (mother) wills that the jiva comes out of samsara. *
> >    2. Madhvas accept that the one who gives ajnAna to the jiva is also
> Hari
> >    alone  (A verse from the nyAyasudhA-parimaLa 1-1-2 has been cited by
> >    Dr.A.V.Nagasampige in his Kannada book 'mata traya sameekShA p.154:
> 'tvam
> >    muktido bandhado ato mato naH. tvam jnAnado ajnAnadashchAsi viShNo. [O
> >    lord, we know You as the one who gives (us) liberation and who gives
> >    bondage. You are the One that gives Jnana and ajnAna.]
> >    3. According to Madhwa siddhAnta
> >
> http://www.sumadhwaseva.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/MADHWA-SIDDANTA-ENGLISH.pdf
> >    12. What is the swaroopa of jeeva? - There are three swaroopaas // 1)
> >    Mukti yogya - jnaanananda swaroopa,// those who are truly
> jnAnAndasvarUpa
> >    have been put into samsara by the Lord by His willing so.  According
> to the
> >    above cited Kannada book, jivas are of chidAnanda svarUpa. That book
> does
> >    not differentiate between jiva-s on this ground.
> >    4. Why does the Lord do so? 9. What paramathma will get by srushti?
> >    - Paramathma will not get anything by srusti. He does not need
> anything.
> >    He does it as if it is his leela.
> >    5. All  the attributes of the Lord remain in Him inseparably.
> >    6. 15. How does the jeeva get moksha from janmantara kleshaas? - by
> the
> >    mercy of Srihari only.
> >    16. How does it happen?
> >    - by Shravana, manana, hariguru bhakti, and shama damaadi.
> >    7. The prospect of the jiva in Advaita 'knowingly' coming to samsara
> is
> >    also farfetched since the shAnkara bhAShya for the said kArikA is
> clear
> >    that it is due to its own avidyA that the jiva is in samsara.
> >    8. The answer to the question //* would anyone knowingly enter/
> >    jump into dirt and then clean oneself up from dirt?// is also
> available in
> >    the Madhva siddhAnta: Hari gives the jivas ajnAna in order that they
> remain
> >    in samsara. And jivas are paratantra-s and have to depend on Hari for
> being
> >    in bandha and getting mokSha.  *
> >    9. Neither Dvaita nor Advaita lends to the theory of 'the Lord
> creating
> >    jivAtma-s'. They are anAdi in both schools.  Only that in Advaita
> jIvatvam
> >    is a bhrama, again not caused by Ishwara.
> >
> > In conclusion, I would like to point out that whether in Dvaita or in
> > Advaita, bondage is due to ajnAna and moksha is due to jnAna.  While
> Dvaita
> > stresses Hari's instrumentality explicitly, Advaita acknowledges
> > IshvarAnugraha for AdvaitavAsanA but does not admit that Ishwara is
> > responsible for bondage.  I have reported before in this forum that
> during
> > the nyAyAmRta-Advaitasiddhi deliberations that I have attended in
> Bangalore
> > at the pUrNaprajnA samshodhana mandiram, no difference of opinion came
> > about on the question on 'how samsara comes about'.
> >
> > When the various points mentioned in the foregoing are kept in mind there
> > will hardly be any room for the kind of criticism purportedly made by Sri
> > Vijayendra Tirtha.  And most importantly, anAdimAyA and  samsara are not
> > within the gamut of logic.  However much one might try, one cannot
> explain
> > them logically.  That is why Advaita holds all this 'anirvachanIya'.
> >
> > Om Tat Sat
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> >
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> >
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
>
> To unsubscribe or change your options:
> http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
>
> For assistance, contact:
> listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
>