[Advaita-l] Eternal Loka
v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Thu Aug 8 21:15:46 CDT 2013
On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Srinath Vedagarbha <svedagarbha at gmail.com>wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 8, 2013 at 3:34 AM, V Subrahmanian
> > The Lord says in the Bh.GitA:
> > मत्तः परतरं नान्यत्किञ्चिदस्ति धनञ्जय |
> > मयि सर्वमिदं प्रोतं सूत्रे मणिगणा इव ||७- ७||
> > "Sri Krishna said: O Arjuna, there is no truth superior to Me. Everything
> > rests upon Me, as pearls are strung on a thread."
> > Since the pramAtA is both sat and chit, the prameya is dependent for both
> > its existence and knowability on the pramAtA consciousness.
> Well, those above cited pramANa-s are talking about Consciousness of
> Brahman/SriKrishna, but not yours. Our dispute started with you
> questioning the reality of objects based on **your** consciousness as
> pramatar. Now someone else's consciousness is shown as evidence. If
> it is further argued that they are the same, then I say that such
> identity cannot be made unless you deny the reality of external
> objects. You cannot deny it unless you equate your consciousness with
> Consciousness of SriKrishna. That sounds like a circular to me.
Did you not base your reply to Rajaram on someone else's authority?
// There are many --
1. srI.gauDapAda's kaarika --
yathA cha svapnamAye dR^iShTe asadrUpe, tathA vishvamidaM dvaitaM
samastaM asat.h dR^iShTam.h | kketyAha -- vedAnteShu | 'neha nAnAsti
kiJNchana', 'indro mAyAbhiH', 'Atmaivedamagra AsIt.h',
'brahmaivedamagra AsIt.h', 'dvitIyAdvai bhayaM bhavati'......
Just as objects perceived in dreams and in illusions are unreal, this
perceived world, the duality is entirely unreal. 'Where is this?' to
that (gauDapAda says): in the shrutis such as neha nAnAsti kiJNchana,
Indra assumes multiple forms through mAyAs , Only the AtmA existed in
the beginning, Only Brahma existed in the beginning, the presence of a
second, indeed, causes fear...//
> More over, your very quoting of those scriptural evidence itself is an
> **evidence** that your consciousness did not know that Truth to begin
> with but has to depend on that scriptures, which is quite "external"
> to your consciousness.
Not so. Scriptures are also within 'our' consciousness; only that one does
not realize that at the beginning. See what Shankara says in the BSB
कथं चानृतेन मोक्षशास्त्रेण प्रतिपादितस्यात्मैकत्वस्य सत्यत्वमुपपद्येतेति ।
अत्रोच्यते नैष दोषः ।
सर्वव्यवहाराणामेव प्राग्ब्रह्मात्मताविज्ञानात्सत्यत्वोपपत्तेः ।
स्वप्नव्यवहारस्येव प्राक्प्रबोधात् ।
The gist of the above is: objection: How would it be possible for the
vidhi-pratishedha shAstra to operate when non-difference, advaita, is
admitted (if the shAstram itself is unreal) ? Reply: All vyavahAra is
admitted as real only prior to the arising of the advaitic realization,
just like the svapna vyavahara before waking up. All laukika and vaidika
vyavahara can happen unimpeded before the advaitic realization arises.
In the adhyAsa bhAShya itself Shankara has indicated this: All pramANa-s,
including the veda karma kAnDa and mokSha shAstra-s (upanishads) operate
in the state of avidyA alone.
> Your evidence proves the contrary to your
> position at the end. As a pramatar you have a very dependency on
> external scriptures in order to know that they are not real but only
> you are the real. That is invalid, because at the root of your
> conclusion there exist your dependency on the scriptures.
I think you have not grasped the purport of the method of Advaita Vedanta.
The very purpose of the shruti/shAstram is to point to the aspirant about
the primary authority of 'his' consciousness; there is no 'someone else's
consciousness' apart from the very consciousness of the aspirant. The
whole shAstra banks upon this fundamental truth that is undeniable. So
there is no circularity or invalidity involved in this.
> It is because the nature of the Pure Consciousness of the Upanishad is
> it will not be experienced unless through some or the other upAdhi. The
> body/mind is one such upAdhi through which the Consciousness is
That is the talk of avidya.
> Shankara clearly says "sasharIrasya mithyAjnAna nimittatvAt", and
> also in another place "nirasyopAdhi sambandham jneyatvena upadisyate"
> (I think BSB 1.1.12 )
Yes. That is not to be lost sight of. All shAstropadesha is based on the
fundamental avidyA of the aspirant.
> >> That vichArita dRShti is not so "vichArita" after all after one
> >> applies vigorous vichAra!
> > If you study under a qualified Acharya you will get a glimpse of what
> > Vedanta vichAra is.
> But that "qualified Acharya" must be unreal because his existence is
> *depend* on your consciousness?
Yes. That is the realization one gets after assimilating the
shAstropadesha through the Acharya and not before. In the dashashlokI we
न शास्ता न शास्त्रं न शिष्यो न शिक्षा
न च त्वं न चाहं न चायं प्रपञ्चः
तदेकोऽवशिष्टः शिवः केवलोऽहम् ॥७॥
"There is no teacher nor instruction, no pupil nor training.
There is no YOU nor I. This universe is not. For the realization
of the true nature of the Self does not tolerate any distinction.
That One, the Residue, the Auspicious, the Alone, am I."
If you had grasped this, you would not have initiated the 'dispute'
in the first instance.
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