[Advaita-l] Vikalpa, Savikalpa, and Nirvikalpa
bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com
Wed Sep 5 07:28:11 CDT 2012
sAshtAnga praNAms Sri Vidya prabhuji
Kindly pardon me for the belated reply. I've nothing substantial to ask
your goodself prabhuji, as you have comprehensively replied/covered all my
queries. However, with your kind permission, I shall try to share some
of my naive thoughts. Kindly bear with me prabhuji.
The one with moderate levels of adhikAra may have some level of
sAdhana-sampat, but his
or her understanding of paramArtha jnAna will still be like knowledge of
other subject, if there is a failure to adequately understand the role of
own antaHkaraNa in the process of attaining jnAna.
> for those manda & madhyama adhikAri-s like me, there is a prescription
to do archana, upAsana dhyAna etc. is it not prabhuji?? Yes, I do agree
alongwith these chitta shdhyarthaM sAdhana, we do involve in sAkshAt
sAdhana-s like shravaNAdi, just like any other serious sAdhaka without
giving much consideration to our state of mind.
Let us get very practical here. You and I, along with everyone else on
this list, have read the
upanishadic passages umpteen number of times. We have probably heard the
vAkya-s tattvamasi and ayam AtmA brahma spoken, by somebody or the other,
again an umpteen number of times. As such, you and I, along with everyone
else on this list, already have the SAstra janita jnAna, albeit perhaps
an objectified jnAna like anything else. If we didn't have even that, we
not be here talking about it.
> Yes prabhuji, I do agree, what I've (I dare not to say 'we' here as I
cannot adjudge others' jnAna level)as shAstra janita jnAna is nothing
better than my remembrance of Transaction codes in SAP at office :-)) But
do you suggesting me here, since I have 'enough' shAstra janita jnAna but
still not a brahma jnAni, I have to start something else as sAdhana afresh
(as a further step to shravaNAdi sAdhana) henceforth?? or do you want me
to continue this sAdhana (sharvaNAdi sAdhana alongwith nitya, naimittika
karmAnushtAna) till 'vreehi' becomes tandula?? infact this is what the
advice shankara gives in sUtra bhAshya. vrutti jnAna should be
transformed into phalabhUta jnAna till that time I think we have to
continue this sAdhana under the guidance of shrOtreeya brahma nishTa guru,
is it not prabhuji?? shvetaketu needs 9 times upadesha tattvamasi, poor
jeeva-s, mandAdhikAri-s like me, may require many more janma-s to
assimilate these jnAna.
I am curious to know what you and others who seem have major objections to
any talk of nirvikalpa samAdhi have in mind when you distinguish the
janita paramArtha jnAna of a jnAni from the SAstra janita jnAna that you
have. What distinguishes the jnAna of a jnAnI from what yours and mine?
> the difference I could foresee is the difference among an academic
scholar, a shrotreeya and the brahmanishTa. An academic scholar is
interested only in showing his scholarship, a sincere shrotreeya tries to
establish himself in this jnAna and to become brahmanishTa and the
brahmanishTa is the epitome of this jnAna.
Surely, you would not take the position that the jnAna that we have is not
> Yes, it is shAstra janita only, but the question is am I really serious
(prepared mentally) to pursue this jnAna mArga sincerely or am I just
trying to learn these things as an amateur vedAntin without any vairAgya
and sAdhana sampatti ??
Is there something magical about the jnAnI's antaHkaraNa that can
distinguish it from
your and my antaHkaraNa-s? Is there something mysterious about the antaH-
karaNa of the jnAnI that allows SAstra to generate paramArtha jnAna in it
failing to generate paramArtha jnAna in yours and mine?
> jnAni's jnAna is anubhavAtmaka jnAna ( and this anubhava cannot be said
that it has to be invariably obtained only in supernatural state like
samAdhi) and my jnAna is kevala vrutti rUpa jnAna. Again adhikAra bedha
comes into picture here..api cha vidyA sAdhanaM svaveerya visheshAt
svaphale eva vidyAyAm kanchit atishayaM asaNgayet says shankara in sUtra
bhAshya. An uttamAdhikAri like vAmadeva can realize this truth in
mother's womb itself, adhikAri-s like svetaketu may require repeated
teachings and mandAdhikAri-s like me may have to keep on doing this
sAdhana many more janma-s. As you know shankara clarifies this sAdhana
mArga in sUtra bhAshya 4-1-1 and 4-1-2 etc.
If yes, could it be that
at least in some cases, this mysterious, magical something is a
of samAdhi, perhaps even the dreaded nirvikalpa kind?
> prabhuji, as you know, brahma jnAna is not something mystical to say it
is avasthAteeta or vyavahArAteeta jnAna.
If not, then how is it that at least two people exist, you and I, who have
SAstra janita jnAna and who
are still not paramArtha jnAnI-s?
> due to lack of mumukshatva, sAdhana paripakvate, adhikAra bedha,
saMskAra, we can count somany other reasons prabhuji.
It is a quite false dichotomy to think of the purification of antaHkaraNa
totally prior to SravaNa and that what is needed after SravaNa is some
"direct sAdhana" that presumes an antaHkaraNa of the utmost purity.
all the manana and nididhyAsana that take place after SravaNa are also
place in the antaHkaraNa of the SrotA. They are effective in an
has some Suddhi in it and they further do nothing more than continue to
the antaHkaraNa and remove its self-imposed tamas, so that the jnAna
forth on its own. And manana and nididhyAsana do not take place in the
of sahakArI kAraNa-s like yama-niyamAdi yogAnga-s.
> Yes, I do agree with this prabhuji. Hence there is a vital place for
yama, niyama, prANAyAma, pratyAhArAdi sAdhana in advaita mArga.
Please see gItA bhAshya on amAnitvAdi guNa-s in this regard. These
comments apply to everyone, from
a green and wet behind the ears entry level student of vedAnta to
saMnyAsins and pundits of advanced learning and training.
> what is sAdhana for the sAdhaka-s becomes natural for the jnAni-s.
Interesting that you should take this line, Bhaskar! You are saying that a
is a person who has an active antaHkaraNa, which maintains its
in order to teach brahma vishaya jnAna to ajnAnI-s. If you think about it
more and with unforgiving logic, the argument you have just made leads
to a stance that ends either in dvaita or in an admission of an
avidyA-leSa or a
vAsanA or a saMskAra that accounts for the continued enlivening of the
and mind of the jnAnI.
> I dont see any problem in this stand prabhuji. (perhaps due to my
manda buddhi I am not seeing any logical inconsistency here), Yes, I am
ajnAni, who is still identifying myself with BMI, naturally, I need a
upadesha from the guru, who I believe is paramArtha jnAni through his BMI
I expect this upadesha from him. But that does not mean jnAni's
association with BMI is everlasted till his physical death. shankara
clarifies this by saying dehavAniva lakshyate, but he is brahman only and
ashareeri and sashareeratvaM is kevala avidyAkalpita. My question/doubt
is very simple prabhuji, whether jnAnAnubhava what we are talking here is
can happen only in the 'absence' of antaHkaraNa like in samAdhi or bAdhita
jnAna of tAdAtmya buddhi.
What I am saying is much simpler. I am merely saying that some people like
take a very negative attitude towards the words nirvikalpa and samAdhi,
reality, they do not realize that the state of abiding in brahmajnAna
nAnyat paSyati, nAnyac chRNoti, etc, (sees nothing else, hears nothing
ultimately the same as the state that is called nirvikalpa samAdhi.
> IMHO, those who are seeing the trouble in mandatory requirement of
nirvikalpa samAdhi anubhava arguing the stand that demands the samAdhi
anubhava for about 2-3 hours in a mind inert mysterious state. If this
nirvikalpa samAdhi is sahaja sthiti of the jnAni irrespective of his
avasthA then it is very much acceptable as it is vaidika samAdhi which is
the result of shravaNAdi sAkshAt sAdhana. His drushti is samyak drushti,
hence, he does not see anything apart from HIM, he does not hear anything.
tadidaM apyetarhi ya evaM veda ahaM brahmAsmeeti sa idaM sarvaM bhavati.
And I am afraid, this state is not same as 2-3 hours experienceable state
like nirvikalpa samAdhi from which the experiencer makes an effort to come
back and wants to go to that state often to experinece 'nirvikalpa'
svarUpa of his literally. Having said this kindly dont think I have
aversion towards these experiences, my contention is that this anubhava is
not an indispensable requirement to establish oneself in paramArtha jnAna,
advaita jnAna mArga and resultant Atmaikatva jnAna would suffice without
the want of this mysterious, time bound state of nirvikalpa samAdhi.
i.e. that the natural state of the Atman is indistinguishable from the
that is described as nirvikalpa samAdhi.
> As you know, both samAdhi (time bound yOgic flavoured) & sushupti both
have avidyA says somewhere shankara in sUtra bhAshya. IMHO, the natural
state of Atman is not restricted to any particular avasthA.
> I think I should stop here since my mail is already getting lengthy &
repetitive. I think most of the issues we have discussed during
vivekachUdAmaNi discussion and yOga's role in advaita vedAnta. I've your
well written paper also on this subject prabhuji.
> Thanks onceagain for your precious time prabhuji.
Your humble servant
Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
PS : I had made a request off the line to your goodself prabhuji, if your
time permits kindly look into it prabhuji.
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