[Advaita-l] Ritambara Prajna
raghavkumar00 at gmail.com
Sat Aug 20 01:48:31 CDT 2011
Dear Sri Sarma garu
On the verifiability and non-verifiability of the Vedas -
You wrote that svarga is a non-verifiable result. True - Certain vedic
rituals have a result , adRShta-phala like svarga which cannot be verified.
but then take the well-known sUtra - vRShti-kAmo kArIryA yajeta - (may one
who seeks rainfall, perform the kArIrI sacrifice.) The result can very well
be observed right here in this World, atleast if the ritual is done
properly. A friend once told me that there are a group based in Pune maybe,
who actually have repeatedly done this sacrifice and have documented the
effects and variations in some detail, in the manner of scientific research.
I personally would commend such efforts though there are not many doing
An important point i would wish to put forward in the context of vedic
karma-kanda is the following. When we say the the vedic truths are beyond
the sensory world and cannot be objectively arrived at by physical science,
we mean that the causal chain which starts with the performance of a
sacrifice and culminates in the accrual of the karma-phala (rainfall) cannot
be traced in the realm of the objectifiable, gross, physical world. So, in
other words, no physical explanation along the lines - "the smoke generated
by the kArIri sacrifice has some chemicals which led to cloud seeding which
led to rain" - no such explanation will ever wo. Why ? The Astikas would say
that , "the kArIrI calls forth a different order (niyati) called the
adhidaivik niyati, governed by certain adhiShThAna devatAs, higher celestial
beings who are intelligent beings who exist at a subtler level who are the
very reason or cause for why the physical laws operate the way they do. The
Vedic Rishis could directly commune with these beings and the mantras and
rituals were revealed to them. (bhAShyakAra in Brahm.Su Bh says so.) These
beings can be invoked through the mantras and rituals and by prayer to them,
our earthly goals too can be attained." All visible effects of the
sacrifice (smoke, sounds of mantras etc.) in the physical world stop with
the performance of the sacrifice. There is however, an invisible component
called apUrva or adRShta (lit. invisible power) which is produced by the
sacrifice. This apUrva result effectively brings the adhidaivik forces in to
play ; these devatas can in turn, apparently initiate or effect visible
changes in the world of physical space and time (such as causing appropriate
wind and moisture concentrations which lead to cloud formation effects
culminating in rainfall.) So, the laws of rainfall physics will be obeyed;
they need not necessarily be violated; the physical laws merely work out in
our favour, to our advantage.
Take the other famous sacrifice the putra-kAmeShTi for getting progeny.
Dasaratha in Ramayana performed this sacrifice with obvious verifiable
results! Unfortunately, today the Vedic karma-kAnda is not in good shape,
so a couple seeking a child would need to go in for a test-tube baby
In many ways, the Veda is not dissimilar to modern science in promoting the
dharma-artha and kAma pursuits of Man but the means employed are alaukika or
non-physical. In principle, a Vedic Rishi would be aware of the causal chain
behind the ritual, he would know how and why the ritual works; He knows the
inner working of the Veda-pramANa; he is not merely an accurate mechanical
performer of the ritual.
As for the other question - Do Vedic injunctions only applicable to
dvija-hindus ? In my understanding the Vedas are not merely a cultural
legacy of India, there is something universal about the underlying truths
they are talking about. As far as Hindus are concerned, the Vedas are the
pramANa for even the law of karma, rebirth etc. If we say the Veda-pramANa
applies only to Hindus we are in effect saying that those who do not believe
in the law of karma and rebirth will not be subject to the law of karma and
rebirth. (...an easy way to end samsAra). There are certain problems of this
type if we restrict the Vedic vision to be hindu-specific. What you meant
may be that - different adhikAris are entitled to perfrom different
rituals. Anyone and everyone cannot just do whatever ritual he pleases.
BrAhmaNas have no adhikAra for the rAjasUya sacrifice. A brahmacArI should
not do panchAgni-vidyA related upAsanA. In that manner, there are ofcourse
restrictions. but the underlying vision of the Veda sounds pretty
much universal to me.
The key element in the
2011/8/20 D.V.N.Sarma డి.వి.ఎన్.శర్మ <dvnsarma at gmail.com>
> This comparision between vedic mantras and Newton's law of Gravitation does
> not seem to
> be right. Newton's law talks of things that can be verified by any body
> with an apparatus.
> But स्वर्गकामो यजेत cannot be verified.
> Science talks of natural, observable and verifiable things. Veda does not.
> As a matter of fact purva mimamsa says that vedas are unverifiable because
> they talk of supernatural
> things and hence other pramanas cannot be made to operate in the
> of vedas.
> Vedas derive their प्रामाण्य because you cannot disprove them.
> As a matter of fact purva mimamsa threatens that if you transgress its
> injunctions either knowingly are unknowingly ,
> you will suffer just as a person person who touches fire knowingly are
> All vaidic injunctions are for Hindus and mostly for dvijas. They are not
> universal like
> Newton's Laws. I do not think that the other communities are who do not
> follow vedic
> injunctions are suffering because of that. This cross has to be borne by
> Hindus only.
> As somebody has pointed out, it is impossible in the modern world to follow
> the all the injunctions
> of the veda. We have long back modified or sometimes omitted following some
> of them.
> Thus in India, to find any body who foollows vedic injunctions to the
> is almost impossible.
> I can understand the desire to put vedas on an unassailable pedestal but it
> has to work.
> On Fri, Aug 19, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Venkata sriram P
> <venkatasriramp at yahoo.in>wrote:
> > Namaste,
> > Just wanted to ask what is "apaursheyatva". My idea of "apaursheyatva"
> > something like this:
> > Let us consider with the example
> > "Newton's Law of Gravity".
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