[Advaita-l] Bhagavan Ramana and the pain of cancer
v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Sat Mar 20 05:47:04 CDT 2010
On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 5:03 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
> praNAms Sri Subbuji
> Hare Krishna
> You start talking like a dvaitin now :-)) do you still have any doubt
> that this loukika & vaidika vyavahAra is kevala avidyAkruta from advaita
[I have no doubts about this.]
> do you think jnAni still suffers from this avidyA vyavahAra
> to see the duality??
[It is not a suffering for the Jnani; it is a fact that he cannot do away
with. Brahma sutra bhashya 4.1.15 is proof for this.]
> I'll ask you one simple question since you are
> holding jnAni's individual mind, body etc. close to your chest...tell me
> how can a body of a jnAni without having the strong feeling of an opposite
> sex can indulge in sexual activity?? You take your own example of talking,
> seeing, sitting, listening etc. of a jnAni & extend that to this scenario
> also, what would be your answer??
[ Atma sAkShAtkAra or enlightenment will not take away the Jnani's capacity
for maithuna. There are several examples in the scripture and in the world
to show that a Jnani, that is after enlightenment, did engage in maithuna
and sired offspring. The famous case of the birth of Paandu, DhritarAShtra
and Vidura through Veda Vyasa is there. After Vichitraveerya died, the two
widows who did not have issues to continue the Kuru clan, gave birth to
those two brothers Pandu and Dhritarashtra through Vyasa as the father.
There is no doubt at all about Veda Vyasa's JnAnitva. One might not say
that he had a 'strong feeling of the opposite sex' but he did indulge, as a
matter of obeying the command of Satyavati, his mother, in the maithuna.
And there is no escape from the feeling the activity brings. When someone
sprinkles water, prokShaNa, on you as asheervachana, if it is cold season,
you will feel the chill. If it is hot season, you will feel pleasant.
Kashyapa PrajApati is spoken of as a Jnani. There is the famous case of how
Diti demanded maithuna in sandhyA kaala and Kashyapa had to oblige, much
against his will. And that is how daityas were born.
In contemporary history, here is an incident reported by Swami Saradananda
in 'Sri Ramakrishna the Great Master':
(Quote) The Master: 'Ah, lust does not vanish till God is realized. So long
as the body lasts, a little of it continues even after realization but then
it cannot raise its head. Do you think I myself am altogether free from it?
At one time I thought I had conquered lust. When I was sitting under
PanchavaTi such an onrush of lust came that it seemed to be beyond my power
of control. I then wept rubbing my face against the dust on the ground and
said to Mother, ' I have done a great wrong, Mother. I shall never again
harbour the idea that I have conquered lust.' It was then only it
Here is an excellent example of how vasana works. It requires something to
trigger it. It could be actually sighting someone in front of you or it
could be triggered just by thinking of someone or remembering a past
incident similar to the one that can trigger lust. ध्यायतो विषयान् पुंसः...
In any case, there is dvaita darshana, externally or internally. The
intellect might wage a war but the deep rooted emotions could have an upper
hand. That is when a crisis develops.
A Jnani who lived till recently, was a Grihastha. Out of his five children,
two were born after he was enlightened.
All these sample cases show that Atma Jnanam will not render a Jnani
incapable of any activity that he was capable of prior to enlightenment.
Sri Vidyaranya has shown that activities of prana, indiryas, manas, buddhi,
ahankara are common to Jnani and ajnani. A Jnani may not or will not allow
himself to indulge in maithuna, for example. But there is no such thing as
'he cannot'. That is the reason why even a Jnani should, in his own and in
the society's interests, exercise extreme care in dealing with women. He
will not incur sin and require rebirth as a result of any sin but he will
cease to be a good example for others. He will not be a 'shreShTha purusha'
in society if he indulges in adharma.]
> your explanations in support of jnAni's individual body is as good as
> saying 'ramaNa' was a cook coz. he was cutting the vegetables at Ashram
[ Why not? See what Krishna says in the Bhagavadgita (5.8,9):
नैव किंचित् करोमीति युक्तो मन्येत तत्त्ववित् ।
पश्यन् शृण्वन् स्पृशन् चिघ्रन् गच्छन् अश्नन् स्वपन् श्वसन् ॥
प्रलपन् विसृजन् गृह्णन् उन्मिषन् निमिषन्नपि ।
इन्द्रियाणीन्द्रियार्थेषु वर्तन्त इति धारयन् ॥ (५. ८,९)
//The man of Knowledge, a Jnani, even while engaged in - seeing, hearing,
touching, smelling, walking, eating, dreaming/sleeping, breathing, talking,
discharging (ejecting), holding/grasping, closing and opening the eyes (even
while still alive) – is of the firm conviction ‘I do nothing at all; the
senses/organs interact with their respective objects.’ (*is free from his
Dharmavyaadha was a butcher by profession. What is wrong if someone
referred to him that way? Will it take away his JnAnitva? Was Krishna not
पार्थ सारथि ? A driver because He did that.]
> rama had the strong feeling of his body hence he got the kids from seeta,
> krishna has the strong feeling of his body, hence he tried to throw
> sudarshana chakra at bheeshma
> in kurukshetra by succumbing himself to krOdha..
[ A very accomplished Jivanmukta can feign anger, etc. without actually
becoming angry. Vyasa's case shown above is one such. He will have so much
control over the mind. Without the capacity to show anger, etc. one cannot
live in the world. That is what Rama and Krishna showed to the world. ]
> Instead of giving undue importance to these socalled activities of jnAni,
> it is better to stick to the shruti vAkya which emphatically says when for
> the jnAni all has become
> one Atman, there who is to see whom, there who is to smell whom, there who
> is to taste whom, there who is to speak to whom, there who is to hear
> whom, there who is to think of whom, there who is to touch whom?? it is
> we, who are ignorant of that samyak jnAna attributing body, mind &
> intellect to the brahmavida jnAni...
[ Pl. note that no one is giving 'undue' importance to the activities of a
Jnani. These were highlighted only to counter your erroneous stand on
Jivanmukti/praarabdha. No one is unaware of the above shruti vakya. No one
has thrown away this vakya to the winds. You have quoted it umpteen times
in this and other forum on this topic. What is repeatedly pointed out to
you is: The above is the Jnani's realization of his svarUpa. The knowledge
of the above shruti vAkya is incomplete unless one also realizes the need
for knowing the set of Gita verses quoted above. Without that one will be
missing the point completely and end up with an incorrect idea of the
Jnani. That Shruti vakya is about Brahman that a Jnani is. But the Jnani
continues to be, for the world, so many things that he was before. In
responding to these, he will conduct himself the way taught by the Gita
verses quoted above. You seem to take only the Shruti vakya and leave out
the Gita verses as irrelevant. That is the mistake. That is why the
prasthana 'traya' is studied. Lord Krishna need not have taught these at
all. It is this that Shankara says as 'sthitaprajna lakshana' in the Sutra
bhashya 4.1.15 for which I gave the Kannada translation. To leave out these
will amount to grasping a teaching only partially.]
I have nothing more to say on this topic.
> Om Tat Sat
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