[Advaita-l] On the forms of Guru
anbesivam2 at gmail.com
Thu Mar 11 05:04:02 CST 2010
> [In the Gita, the verse 13.20 says:
> कार्यकरणकर्तृत्वे हेतुः प्रकृतिरुच्यते ।
> पुरुषः सुखदुःखानां भोकृत्वे हेतुरुच्यते ॥
> A summary of the Bhashyam : // 'kAryam' is the physical body and 'karaNam'
> refers to the thirteen instruments: five sense organs, five motor organs,
> Manas, Buddhi and ahamkAra. The five elements (bhUtas) which build up the
> body, and the five sense-objects which are the emanations of PrakRti as
> mentioned above are included in the term 'kAryam' and all qualities such
> pleasure, pain and delusion which are born of PrakRti are included under
> term 'instruments', since those qualities are seated in the instruments,
> senses. In the production of the physical body, of the senses and their
> sensations, PrakRti is said to be the cause, for, it generates them all.
> Thus, as producing the physical body AND THE SENSES (13 in number),
> is the cause of samsara.//
> From tha above summary we understand that the physical body is not a
> stand-alone; the senses, thirteen in number, which include the manas,
> and ahankara, are not a stand-alone; It is a package presented by
> as a result of the jiva's karma. It is impossible to separate the
> mind/buddhi/ahankara from this prakRti-given package, along with the
> physical body. According to Shankaracharya, it is this kArya-karaNa
> sanghAta (a word often used in the commentarial literature), that is
> 'prArabdham' or rather the apparatus with which the prArabdha karma bhoga
> takes place.
Too much labour into nothing. The purusha here (Gita verse 13.20 ) is the
jeeva. We are talking of a jeevan muktha who is asangan with the body.
"Since a Jnani is undoubtedly admitted to undergo the praarabdha karma.."
Wait a minute here! Who says a Gyaani is undergoing anything in this
prakrthi? Then what will be the difference between gnyaani and agnyaani?
Just the idea he knows and other one does not know? What about Aanandha to
which He is privy and the ordinary jeeva is not? The moment you are in
Aanandha the prakrithi disappears for you. The scriptures and the Gurus
say this however no amount of quotations would suffice. This one has to
find it out for himself.
Seeing a 'Gnyaani suffers' is a standpoint of agnyaani. The agnyaani
recognizes only the body and then from there the mind in the body.
This is where the Guru is so very important. This thread is aptly dedicated
to the Guru.
However I appreciate you reading and quoting a lot.
Mundaka is dedicated to the Sanyasins and teaches the realization through
the cleansing of the mind. Both Sankara and Ramana have other methods of
realization through surrender and abandoning of the mind in its graveyard.
Ramana's teaching is simple. He says: Mind is a bundle of thoughts only.
All thoughts stem from the 'I' thought. Find out where the 'I' thought
comes from and remain there.
Aathman is the source (adhishtaanam) of the mind.
This 'pushing' of the mind into the Aathman where it gets dissolved is for
all saamaanyans. No paandithyam is needed. Only Guru Bhakthi.
And any of the various processes of realization *cannot* happen without
surrender to a Guru.
I hope the one who advocates the cleansing of the mind understands that the
process involves ridding from the mind of the pancha klEsas that are (i)
avidhya (ii) asmitha (iii) raga (iv) dwEsha and (v) abnivEsha. This is no
easy process and given the nature of the mind such an endeavour will more
likely fail. So much so it is for those who follow the rigours of sanyasa
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 4:51 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com>wrote:
> (This post is re-sent now as the earlier dispatch got posted partially)
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 3:16 PM, V Subrahmanian <v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
> > With a view to present the scriptural position on some issues raised in
> > this reply of Sri Anbu, I am venturing despite Sri Vidyashankar's
> > to close this exchange:
> > My observations are within [ ]
> > On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 11:54 PM, Anbu sivam2 <anbesivam2 at gmail.com>
> >> "In your position, a jnAnI lives, breathes, eats, sleeps, talks,
> >> walks and teaches in a physical body, but all of this is without
> >> a mind at all. "
> >> Sorry, this is not my position for nothing positive can be said of
> >> Brahman.
> >> A gnyaani is Brahman. He is simply anirvachaneeya and I have said this
> >> before. One may or may not need the mind to know that he is Brahman
> >> I
> >> have said that it is actually an impediment) but definitely won't keep
> >> mind or anything else when he knows he is Brahman.
> > [There is no option involved in the instrumentality of the mind in
> > that one is Brahman. All the Upanishads, Lord Krishna and Sri
> > Shankaracharya have unequivocally taught that only through the mind that
> > adequately cultivated one can know the Ultimate Truth of his self. Also,
> > per the above authorities, the jnani has no freedom to do away with the
> > apparatus; it is impossible for him to do that. The reason for this is
> > stated in the next section.]
> >> What was once his body before his realization operates under the spell
> >> Easwara even though the person has broken the mutual superimposition.
> >> is the praaptham with regard to the body. Only because it, the body, is
> >> operating the entity is
> >> called Jeevan Muktha. If the body had dropped he would be vidhEha
> > [In the Gita, the verse 13.20 says:
> > कार्यकरणकर्तृत्वे हेतुः प्रकृतिरुच्यते ।
> > पुरुषः सुखदुःखानां भोकृत्वे हेतुरुच्यते ॥
> > A summary of the Bhashyam : // 'kAryam' is the physical body and
> > refers to the thirteen instruments: five sense organs, five motor organs,
> > Manas, Buddhi and ahamkAra. The five elements (bhUtas) which build up
> > body, and the five sense-objects which are the emanations of PrakRti as
> > mentioned above are included in the term 'kAryam' and all qualities such
> > pleasure, pain and delusion which are born of PrakRti are included under
> > term 'instruments', since those qualities are seated in the instruments,
> > senses. In the production of the physical body, of the senses and their
> > sensations, PrakRti is said to be the cause, for, it generates them all.
> > Thus, as producing the physical body AND THE SENSES (13 in number),
> > is the cause of samsara.//
> > From tha above summary we understand that the physical body is not a
> > stand-alone; the senses, thirteen in number, which include the manas,
> > and ahankara, are not a stand-alone; It is a package presented by
> > as a result of the jiva's karma. It is impossible to separate the
> > mind/buddhi/ahankara from this prakRti-given package, along with the
> > physical body. According to Shankaracharya, it is this kArya-karaNa
> > sanghAta (a word often used in the commentarial literature), that is
> > 'prArabdham' or rather the apparatus with which the prArabdha karma bhoga
> > takes place.
> > Since a Jnani is undoubtedly admitted to undergo the praarabdha karma,
> > by upabhoga, as per a specific Brahma Sutra and Shankara's reiteration in
> > several Bhashyams, this physical body-sesnse organs-mind-buddhi-ahankara
> > package is essential for this bhoga. It is quite another matter that the
> > Jnani has disidentified from this package, given up the abhimAna, which
> > what Realization is, but for the bhoga of the prArabdha, this package has
> > be there mandatorily. For example, bodily disease requires the
> > of the physical body. For experiencing maana, apamaana, sukha, duHkha,
> > the mind apparatus is essential. Without this package there is no
> > in the scripture talking about praarabdha karma bhoga for the Jnani.
> > possition of the Scripture and Bhagavatpada is unassailable. If anyone
> > teaches otherwise, it has to be viewed as un-traditional, असंप्रदायम्,
> > rejected, as per the dictates of Shankaracharya in the Gita bhashya.
> > When the prArabdha karma expires, the body-mind package undergoes death
> > the disintegration of the package takes place in the manner the Shruti
> > taught. The entire package of the body-mind complex is a product of the
> > five bhUta-s and upon disintegration, they attain to their respective
> > elements. ]
> >> A Jeevan Muktha is a total asangan and adhvitheeyan. Who can say what
> >> and what are not his powers? Tell me if any Bhaashya or Primary Texts
> >> to be quoted to say this.
> > [The Mundaka Upanishad teaches in mantra 3.1.10:
> > यं यं लोकं* मनसा संविभाति* विशुद्धसत्त्वः कामयते यांश्च कामान् ।
> > तं तं लोकं जयते तांश्च कामांस्तस्मादात्मज्ञं ह्यर्चयेद् भूतिकामः ॥
> > // Whatever world a man of pure understanding (Jnani) envisages in his
> > and whatever desires he cherishes, that world he conquers and those
> > he obtains, Therefore let everyone who wants prosperity worship the man
> > knows the Self.//
> > Shankara comments: // Any world whichsoever, such as the world of manes,
> > etc. (pitRs, etc.) that the man of pure mind, the man freed from mental
> > afflictions (klesha) the Knower of the Self, Jnani,* wishes for with the
> > mind, thinking, *'Let this be mine or for somebody else', and those
> > enjoyable things that he covets, he wins, gets, those very worlds and
> > enjoyable things that are wished for. Since the wishes of the
> > man are infallible, therefore, one who hankers after prosperity should
> > worship, through washing of feet, service, salutation, etc. the Jnani,
> > is purified in mind by virtue of his knowledge of the Atman. Therefore
> > a one, the Jnani, is certainly adorable. //
> > Two features stand out in this mantra: 1. The word 'मनसा’ is present in
> > the mantra which means 'by/with the mind' in the instrumental, तृतीया,
> > case. This is the undisputable Scriptural evidence for the Jnani
> > with the mind. The mantra says that not only does the Jnani have a mind,
> > uses it too. Shankara comments for the words मन्सा संविभाति thus: मनसा
> > संकल्पयति, मह्यं अन्यस्मै वा...By saying so Shankara confirms that not
> > does the Jnani have a mind, he 'desires', wishes, and that the Jnani has
> > ahankAra too: the word मह्यं ' for me' shows this.
> > 2. The Jnani has great powers. He can grant anyone anything that is
> > the confines of Dharma and Ishwara's dispensation.
> > Shankaracharya says about the Jivan mukta in the Shivanandalahari:
> > Sivaanandalahari - 81कंचित्काल-मुमामहेश भवत: पादारविन्दार्चनै:
> > कंचिद्ध्यान-समाधिभिश्च नतिभि: कंचित् कथाकर्णनै: ।
> > कंचित् कंचिदवेक्षणैश्च नुतिभि: कंचिद्दशामीदृशीं
> > य: प्राप्नोति मुदा त्वदीर्पित-मना जीवन् स मुक्त: खलु ॥ ८१ ॥
> > kaMchitkAla-mumAmaheSa Bavata: pAdAravindArchanai:
> > kaMchiddhyAna-samAdhiBiScha natiBi: kaMchit kathAkarNanai: |
> > kaMchit kaMchidavekShaNaiScha nutiBi: kaMchiddaSAmIdRuSIM
> > ya: prApnoti mudA tvadIrpita-manA jIvan sa muk^ta: khalu || 81 ||
> > Oh Uma Mahesvara ! one who does archana to your holy feet for sometime,
> > meditation and samadhi for sometime, some worship, spend some time in
> > hearing the stories of Lord Shiva, seeing you, does some pryaers, and
> > joy surrenders his mind to you and attains such a state will attain
> > liberation even while living with the body.//
> > One can easily appreciate that each one of the 'activities' of this Jivan
> mukta involves the
> > mind mandatorily along with the other instruments depending upon the kind
> of devotional
> > act he is engaged at that time.]
> >> Agnyaanis see and describe the gnyaanis in their own fancy. That is
> >> the agnyaanis do.
> > [ The Jnani has been described elaborately by the Upanishads, Lord
> > in the Gita, Veda Vyasa in the Mahabharata and Shankaracharya in His
> > innumerable works. All these Brahmavidyaa Acharyas will have to be
> > under 'ajnAni-s' for their 'fault' of seeing and describing Jnani-s.]
> > The discussion in this thread offered a lot of opportunity to all of us
> > revisit the canonical works of Vedanta and discuss a number of issues. I
> > thank all the members who participated in this discussion by raising
> > questions, objections, providing answers, etc. In this group-chintanam
> > there is absolutely no room for rancour or any ill feelings. In an old
> > Sri Jaladhar Vyas had remarked that by raising objections against Advaita
> > the Dvaitins have indeed done a great favour: Advaitins applied
> > with greater fervor to the study and analysis of their own works and
> > adding even more splendour to Advaita.
> > Om Tat Sat
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