[Advaita-l] Physical death of the Jnani and related issues
v.subrahmanian at gmail.com
Thu Mar 4 05:34:13 CST 2010
Pranams Bhaskar ji,
Let me provide some clarifications to your comments and observations.
On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 5:47 PM, Bhaskar YR <bhaskar.yr at in.abb.com> wrote:
> praNAms Sri Subbu prabhuji
> Hare Krishna
> I know how emotionally you are attached to your pet theories in
> advaita...So, your personal attacks on me is not a surprise gift :-))
[The concept of 'AvidyA lesha' is not my pet theory; it is a teaching of the
Shastra elucidated by Shankara. To oppose this could be your pet pastime.]
> By the way, even after realizing one moon, seeing double moon does not mean
> it is due to remnants of avidya...shankara clearly says vidyA & avidyA
> cannot have co-existence in a same person. ekasmin purushe ete ekadaiva
> na saha saMbadhyEyAtAmityarthaH, yathA shuktikAyAM rajata shukti jnAne
> ekasya purushasya.....tasmAnna vidyAyAm satyAm avidyAsaMbhavOsti...this
> clear cut clarification from shankara is more than enough to blow away
> your avidyA lesha theory...
[You are thoroughly mistaken about the above bhashya quote and the concept
of avidya lesha. The above quote only says that he who has had the samyak
jnAna will no longer be subject to delusion and the consequent samsara.
This is quite understandable. But what Shankara says in the following Sutra
bhashya 4.1.15 is:
उच्यते - न तावदनाश्रित्य आरब्धकार्यं कर्माशयं ज्ञानोत्पत्तिरुपपद्यते ।
आश्रिते च तस्मिन् कुलालचक्रवत्प्रवृत्तवेगस्यान्तराले प्रतिबन्धासम्भवात् भवति
*वेगक्षयप्रतिपालनम् *। अकर्त्रात्मबोधोऽपि हि मिथ्याज्ञानबाधनेन
कर्माण्युच्छिनत्ति । *बाधितमपि तु मिथ्याज्ञानं* द्विचन्द्रज्ञानवत्
कंचित्कालमनुवर्तते एव* । अपि च नैवात्र विवदितव्यं ब्रह्मविदा कंचित्कालं
शरीरं ध्रियते न वा ध्रियत इति ।
कथं ह्येकस्य स्वहृदयप्रत्ययं *ब्रह्मवेदनं देहधारणं *च अपरेण प्रतिक्षेप्तुं
शक्त्यते । श्रुतिस्मृतिषु स्थितप्रज्ञलक्षणनिर्देशेनैतदेव निरुच्यते ।
The above passage is not very difficult to grasp. In the opening sentence
He says: Without depending upon the body that has already become available
as a praarabdha phala, Knowledge will not arise. And when it is granted that
it arises, it is but natural that knowedge has to wait (for its result) till
the acquired momentum of that medium exhausts itself out as in the case of a
wheel of a potter; for there is nothing to stop it in the intervening
period. As for the knowlege of the Atman as akartA, it destroys the results
of works by first sublating false ignorance. This mithyAjnanam, even when
sublated, continues for a while owing to past tendencies like the
continuance of the vision of two moons. (For a man who had suffered from
eye disease, the false idea may persist for some time even after the defect
is removed. )
Moreover, it is not a matter for dispute at all whether the body of the
Knower of Brahman continues to exist for sometime or not. For how can one
contest the fact of another possessing the knowledge of Brahman – vouched
for by his heart’s conviction – and at the same time continuing with the
body? This very fact is elaborated in the Upanishads and the SmRtis in the
course of determining the characteristics of 'the man of steady wisdom'. //The
Bhashyam original itself is crystal clear in what it intends to convey. I
have provided the translation too. Still, in case you feel that Shankara is
not conveying the idea of avidyaa lesha, let me reproduce the Kannada
translation of SSS:ಅಕರ್ತ್ರಾತ್ಮಕ ಜ್ಞಾನವು ಮಿಥ್ಯಾಜ್ಞಾನವನ್ನು ಬಾಧಿಸುವುದರಿಂದ
ಕರ್ಮಗಳನ್ನು ನಾಶಗೊಳಿಸುತ್ತದೆ. ಮಿಥ್ಯಾಜ್ಞಾವು ಬಾಧಿತವಾದ ಬಳಿಕವೂ ಇಬ್ಬರುಚಂದ್ರದ
ಜ್ಞಾನದಂತೆ 'ಸಂಸ್ಕಾರವಶದಿಂದ' ಕೆಲವು ಕಾಲದ ವರೆಗೆ ಇದ್ದುಕೊಂಡೇ ಇರುತ್ತದೆ. ಇದಲ್ಲದೆ
ಬ್ರಹ್ಮಜ್ಞಾನಿಯು ಕೆಲವು ಕಾಲದ ವರೆಗೆ ದೇಹವನ್ನು ಧರಿಸುತ್ತಾನೆಯೇ ಇಲ್ಲವೇ ಎಂಬೀ ವಿಷಯದಲ್ಲಿ
ವಿವಾದ ಮಾಡುವಂತೆಯೇ ಇಲ್ಲ. ಏಕೆಂದರೆ 'ತನ್ನ ಹೃದಯಕ್ಕೆ ಮಾತ್ರ' ತಿಳಿಯಬರುವ ಬ್ರಹ್ಮಜ್ಞಾನ
ಮತ್ತು ದೇಹಧಾರಣ ಇವನ್ನು ಮತ್ತೊಬ್ಬನು ಹೇಗೆತಾನೆ ಇಲ್ಲವೆನ್ನುವದಾಗೀತು?
The salient features of the above crystal-clear translation are:
- Even after the false knowledge has been sublated, owing to past
samskAras (avidyaa lesha) that false knowledge continues for some time.
Just like the vision of double-moon continues even after the eye defect is
set right. An example in medical case is: even after a leg has been
amputated, the amputee experiences for some time the presence of the leg in
the form of some pain or itching in the non-existent leg. This condition
passes off in course of time.
- The prominent word in the Kannada translation is: samskAra vasha. This
is what is called avidyaa lesha.
- This is not the same as avidyaa itself. mithyaa jnaana is samsaara
nimitta as the adhyAsa bhAshya itself teaches. But here the Acharya uses
the same word to convey a condition that obtains even AFTER the mithyA
jnAna has been sublated. Thus while avidyaa is not desirable but avidyaa
lesha is unavoidable, even for a Jnani.
- The Brahman knowledge anubhava is 'seemita' for the jnaani alone.
The word 'maatra' of the Kannada translation confirms this. Thus, the
jnanam of the jnaani is essentially 'localised' to him alone.
- prArabdha and the continuance of the body and mind for a jnani is
confirmed by the Kannada translation.
- The word 'anuvartate' of the bhashyam is the root for the term
'bAdhitAnuvRttiH' that conveys avidyaa lesha.
> Anyway, I am sorry to say, by attributing avidya lesha to even mahA
> jnAni-s like shankara you are doing apahAsya to the ranks of those
[Far from my attributing avidyA lesha to any jnAni, Shankara Himself is
teaching it as a fact in the case of every jnAni, mahA or choTa, including
Himself!!. It is your pet determination to assign a negative, derogatory
meaning to the term 'avidyaa lesha' and oppose it that has led you to this
situation where you refuse to see the clear-cut meaning of the Bhashya, the
translation, even the Kannada version of SSS.
Even after so much of clarification if you insist that 'continued vision of
double moon for some time' is NOT avidyaa lesha, it only confirms that you
have not understood what avidyaa lesha is. I leave it to your choice to
continue with this wrong notion or to correct it based on the above bhashya
and translation of SSS]
Om Tat Sat
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