[Advaita-l] waking, dreaming, sleeping, as mutually supportive

Anbu sivam2 anbesivam2 at gmail.com
Fri Oct 23 07:20:19 CDT 2009

Dear Srinivasji,

May I present to you the discourse of Sri Krishna Sastri in Kanchiforum that
is relevant to the topic here?  Pl. keep in mind that which I have
highlighted in blue.

MOkshasaadhanam (Means of Liberation) – 18


As the Guru convinced the Sishya that the Self is ‘ Suddha Chaithanyam ’
(pure consciousness) he also told the Sishya that It is ‘ Kootastham ’
(changeless). On this the Sishya expresses his doubt.

Sishya: As I am a knower of objects as they as they appear to me in a stream
I cannot conclude that I am changeless. For example, the objects are given
to the mind. The mental modifications are thus combinations and therefore
non-conscious. The Self as a knower, even as pure consciousness is dependent
for its knowledge on the modifications of the mind. Therefore I conclude
that the Self is of changeful nature.

Guru: All the modifications of the mind without a single exception are
(simultaneously) known by you. It is like this. When there is no pot, there
is awareness of the non-existence of the pot. When the pot is presented to
the mind then there is still the awareness of the existence of the pot. The
existence or otherwise of the pot and the modification relative thereto of
the mind can change but these are simultaneously known by the unchanging
awareness. If you were changeful like the mind or the senses (which pervade
their objects one after another), you would not simultaneously know all the
mental modifications, the objects of your knowledge. Or to put it simply, if
the awareness were to change then simultaneous knowledge would not have been

Sishya: Sir, alright, I am pure consciouness and immutable but then how are
these sounds and sights and so on of the mental modifications result in the
reflection of the knowledge of such sounds, sights etc. In other words, I,
being, pure awareness and changeless and yet I come to know of these sounds
and sights. Why so?

Guru: You are not to be faulted but it is your avidya that is to be faulted!

Sishya: PrabhO! If I am changeless, why are there the states of waking,
dream and deep sleep?

Guru: Is it not true that you become aware of them whenever they arise?

Sishya: True, but they are at intervals but not continuous.

Guru: In as much as they are chance happenings, it is certainly not your
nature. To be your own nature, they must be with you continuously and never
cease to exist. Waking and dreaming are not persistent states while you are
pure consciousness always. Let me give you the example that Bhagavan Ramana
gave while explaining Suddha Chaithanyam and Kootastham. You see scenes
projected on a silver screen. There is fire, flood, murder, love, laughter,
cry, fear and so in those scenes. But the screen is unaffected by all these!
But no scene would be visible without the silver screen! You are the Suddha
Chaithanyam and Kootastham like the silver screen, knowing everything yet
remaining unaffected.

MOkshasaadhanam (Means of Liberation) – 19


Sishya: I have a doubt about the existence of pure consciousness in my deep

Guru: What doubt?

Sishya: The ideas such as “I am a seer”, “I am a hearer” etc., indicating
consciousness in me in my dream and in my waking state are absent in deep
sleep together with the two states (of waking and dream). In my deep sleep I
know of nothing, so there is no proof that pure consciousness existed during
my deep sleep.

Guru: *Did we not prove before that the Self which is consciousness is
independent and therefore should not be understood to co-exist with another
for mutual benefit? *

Sishya: Sir, did you not say that the Self is always known to oneself? I was
not aware of anything in my deep sleep and so I am making this statement.

Guru: You are contradicting yourself by saying that you were not conscious
when as a matter of fact, you were (and you are and you will be).

Sishya: How so? I was never conscious of either myself or any object in my
deep sleep.

Guru: You were definitely conscious in your deep sleep. Otherwise how can
you make the statement of denial of the existence of objects in your deep
sleep? Only when there was consciousness one could say that there IS or
there IS NOT an object. Your own Self, the consciousness, is ‘absolute’
knowledge. It is only because the presence of this ‘absolute’ knowledge that
you say that you were conscious of nothing. That knowledge of not knowing
anything is also awareness, pure consciousness! If it was not for the pure
consciousness you would have gone to sleep as Shankar and woken up as

Bhagavan Ramana once remarked: "You wake up and say, 'I had a good sleep, I
sept happily.' If it was not for the Self - the Consciousness - you would
not have known of such an experience."


On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 6:58 AM, Shrinivas Gadkari
<sgadkari2001 at yahoo.com>wrote:

> Namaste Shri Bhaskar,
> In this message thread we are discussing how one may use interaction/
> influence between the three/ four states of consciousness in our sAdhanA.
> If we say these states and independent of each other, I assume we are
> also implying that they do not interact with each other or influence
> each other. In that case validity of vidyA-s as I understand them is
> questionable.
> Regards,
> Shrinivas
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> praNAms
> Hare Krishna
> Kindly pardon my ignorance...I am not able to corelate your statement with
> Smt. Savitri mAtAji's 'avasthA traya mail'....Could you please elaborate
> with more details.
> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!
> bhaskar
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