[Advaita-l] Kutchu and his glasses - realising Brahman
Siva Senani Nori
sivasenani at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 9 01:26:29 CDT 2008
Let us apply the least rigorous definition, the j~naani as defined by you. By all means let the worldly roles continue. I only wished to state that, to the extent I am exposed to the tradition, such persons neither declare that they are self-realised, and more importantly nor do they comment on the uselessness of the instruments that the non-realised have, including the silly subject-object-verb construct of languages, which is so patently false.
As to the eligibility for enlightenment, I was only repeating what I was told about how my mother's guru was given sannyaasa deekshaa by the peeThaadhipati. For one year, the to-be Swaami Ramaananda Bhaarati was asked to stay in the maTham taking care of nitya puja etc. and only after he did so without any trace of wavering or unhappiness, was he ordained. Once I asked why yati dushaNa is seen as the most heinous crime even when the yati in question is obviously a bhrashTha and I was told how my grandfather had explained this in a play titled: "asa~ngaSastreNa driDhena chitvaa" - it is very difficult to even contemplate, let alone do, what a sannyasin has to do - renounce the world, declare thrice that he is dead etc., and be absolutely indifferent to his wife, children, friends and relatives. One who has done that, even if only for a fleeting moment, is much better prepared for moksha than those of who cling to these things, and we, who can't even
contemplate it, do not deserve to call this yati names if he is later unable to live upto the high ideal.
King Janaka was a great man. Glory be to him. He had to continue his worldly role so that all of us would be better off. Those of us, who have a similar high duty, should by all means continue our worldly roles, and those of us who have no such obligation should consciously try to give up the world after seeing the face of one's grandson. So I understood what I heard.
----- Original Message ----
From: Vishy <vishy1962 at yahoo.com>
To: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, August 9, 2008 10:59:08 AM
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Kutchu and his glasses - realising Brahman
As per my understanding, the person who has just understood The Ttruth is " Jnani" and one who has become one with what he has understood is " Yogi". The person who has given up all the attachments including that of his own body (while still breathing) is "Jeevan
Muktha". Perhaps a Jnani or yogi, despite knowing the truth can still continue
the drama of these bodily realations (with full awareness that theya are just illusions) to discharge the worldy obligations (Karma yogi).
Now in this context, pl let me know whom you call " Self realized"??
I rather feel who had understood the " Truth" can still be called self realized , despite his continuance of his worldy roles. (Ofcourse he may not/ need not declare that he is self realized.) King Janaka was the best example
With earm regards
--- On Fri, 8/8/08, Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Kutchu and his glasses - realising Brahman
To: "A discussion group for Advaita Vedanta" <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
Date: Friday, 8 August, 2008, 4:44 PM
Brahma Sri Marko
To the extent I was told, and to the extent that I could grasp within that and
reproduce here, neither perception nor restlessness is Brahman; Brahman is the
witness, when the subject, object and action are spoken of differently.
I find the concept of reference frames very useful. Is Newtonian physics
correct? Yes, with Earth as the reference frame. With a fixed star as the
reference frame, Newtonian physics is incorrect. Or to put it more elaborately,
let us say two trains, T1 and T2, start from Point A to Point B and travel at
different speeds. Let us say T1 travels 100 km more than T2 in an hour. Then for
somebody who is on ground between points A and B, T2 is heading TOWARDS him. If
this somebody then boards T1, he will suddenly discover that T2 is racing AWAY
from him. What is the truth? It depends on the reference frame. If the frame is
fixed to earth, T2 is racing towards the observer, who by definition is fixed to
the reference frame; if the reference frame is fixed to the faster train T1, T2
is racing away from the observer.
Similarly, when perception is spoken of as separate and distinct from the
perceiver and the perceived, implicitly the reference frame is fixed to this
world, that ultimately is mithyaa. The short-cut for this is "the worldly
view" or the loukika view; and since the worldly view is implicitly
assumed, within the influence of maayaa, perception is not Brahman. Similarly
In the Absolutist view, or the paaramaarthika view, with maayaa not operating,
there is no perceiver, nor the perceived and of course no perception. Only
Is the train speeding away from me, or is it rushing towards me? It depends on
whether I am subject to the influence of avidyaa or not. I am firmly under the
influence of avidyaa, so, to me, the train is speeding away from me;
perception and restlessness are not Brahman. You, (as you acknowledged), having
realised Brahman are beyond the influence of avidyaa and therefore it is very
clear to you that the train is coming towards you; that perception and
restlessness are, but, Brahman.
Traditionally, the self-realised do not declare so, and very nicely play-act as
if they are subject to maayaa, for the benefit of poor souls who are still
subject to maayaa. Even the most reverred achaarya, bhagavatpaada, Sri Sankara,
in hundreds of pages of tight philosophical exposition let it slip only once
that "even those like us who have realised Brahman do such and such".
While I fully understand the underlying refrain of all your posts - Fool!,
realise that you are Brahman - the moment one finds it difficult to reconcile it
- say, as Sri Jaladhar Vyas puts it, the inability to treat my bank balance as
yours and transfer all my money to you - one ought to acknowledge that one's
realisation is not sound, that one is still under the influence of avidyaa and
thinks that there is something called mine, his, hers and so on.
As long as I believe, declare, and act as if my wife is my own, my children
my own, my friends my own, mine this and mine that, and cannot give up joy on
seeing them, touching them, cannot give up hurting when they do not reciprocate,
do take up the duty of standing up for them, I remain ineligible for
enlightenment. The day I don't care when my son is half naked on the streets
and begging, any more than I do when I see other children of similar age doing
so, I remain ineligible for enlightenment. The day I don't feel a moment of
sadness when I see my mother dying, as do die so many ladies of her age every
day, I am eligible for enlightenment. The day I am indifferent to my daughter
being feted by her school, as are so many schoolgirls around the world, I am
eligible for enlightenment. The day all my bonds break, I am eligible
Till then, I am not eligible for enlightenment. Till then, I remain under the
influence of avidyaa and maayaa. Perception and restlessness are, to such a
person, not Brahman. The train is racing away.
----- Original Message ----
> From: Marko Gregoric <markogregori at gmail.com>
> To: Siva Senani Nori <sivasenani at yahoo.com>; A discussion group for
Advaita Vedanta <advaita-l at lists.advaita-vedanta.org>
> Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 3:08:53 PM
> Subject: Re: [Advaita-l] Kutchu and his glasses - realising Brahman
> Dear Senani
> Thank you for the nice story, but I still think Brahman does not
> percieve anything at all. He alone is. Perception and restlessnes are
> Brahman too, aren't they?
> Best regards
> On 8/8/08, Siva Senani Nori wrote:
> > Long years back, when I was in Standard 2
> > We had a lesson, Kutchu and His Glasses.
> > Mr. Kutchu lost his glasses,
> > so hither, tither and everywhere
> > searched everybody in his home.
> > Scared were the children and servants
> > the wife was tense, Mr. Kutchu, restless
> > and quiet stayed the guests.
> > Only for them to realise,
> > at the end of all the frenzy,
> > that he always had them on his forehead.
> > I guess, short poems are not my cup of tea, but the above is a good
> > examine how the Atman, Brahman itself, 'realises' its own
self. (Actually I
> > need not have brought Mr. Kutchu into the picture, because the
> > two examples that readily come to my mind: daSamo`ham and the lady of
> > house 'finding' her necklace in her own neck after frantic
> > still, let it be as I can't access the Bhashya immediately and
> > reconstruct it all from memory.)
> > Now for the examination of 'praapti', getting, finding or
> > Did Kutchu 'lose' his glasses?
> > Yes, he did. That is why he and everybody else searched for them.
> > But, did he not always have them on his forehead?
> > Yes, he did, but he did not know that. And, that fact did not make
> > search with less frenzy.
> > But, then, his "finding" them is not really finding them.
He always had
> > them.
> > Yes, he always had them on his body, but he "found" them
only when he
> > realised that fact.
> > So, the truth does not matter, only the perception matters?
> > Yes, to Mr. Kutchu, only the perception matters.
> > But, the truth remains that he always had his glasses on his body?
> > Yes. Only Mr. Kutch did not 'realise' the truth. He and his
> > anxious till the truth was realised.
> > The Atman realising its true nature is something similar. The actual
> > remains that the Atman is Brahman, but as long as that is not
> > Atman will have the same anxiety, restlessness and the resultant
> > Mr. Kutchu had.
> > The "anubhooti prakaaSikaa" of Sri Suresvaracharya ends on
a similar note:
> > that the relased thus attain release.
> > Regards
> > Senani
> > _______________________________________________
> > Archives: http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/
> > http://blog.gmane.org/gmane.culture.religion.advaita
> > To unsubscribe or change your options:
> > http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/listinfo/advaita-l
> > For assistance, contact:
> > listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
> Sent from Gmail for mobile | mobile.google.com
To unsubscribe or change your options:
For assistance, contact:
listmaster at advaita-vedanta.org
Did you know? You can CHAT without downloading messenger. Click here
More information about the Advaita-l mailing list