[Advaita-l] Re; Moksha (Badisa) -1
badisa66 at yahoo.com
Sat Aug 27 05:20:53 CDT 2005
At the outset, let me thank you all for your responses. Let us once again remind ourselves that discussion, if taken place under harmonic atmosphere without too much of rajogun, is good for spiritual progress also. If my postings offended any of our list members feelings, then I beg for forgiveness. That is never been the intension with my postings. Namaste once again for patience. I am sending my replies in two parts, due to large size.
"Not even Brahma, Vishnu and Siva are equal to a GYAnI."
- Ramana Maharshi.
Badisa: When you have indicated earlier that gyani does not feel the presence of his own physical body, then, how come in the above statement, three different entities are recognized by the same gyani? He should not see them as such. Right? Rather he should see them as his own self. Right? So, it means that they all are equal, meaning that there is only one but not two or three. Then in that case, where is the question that the trinity being unequal to gyani? Thus, the above quote does not convey the meaning whatever you are thinking. It needs to be understood from a different out look. Guna and gunatita states. In other words, the gunas of above three entities are not equal to the guna rahita state of gyani and vice versa.
Shankara also says something similar (in his
upadeshasaahasrii?), "To a GYAnI, even Brahma and Indra are
Badisa: Same explanation as above.
To ask if a GYAnI is able to create or destroy the universe is
like asking if a king can stitch clothes. Why would a king
bother to stitch clothes when he rules a kingdom with many
tailors, who are ready to do the work for him?
Badisa: That means as per your understanding, gyani knows that there are some entities who want to work for him. But when you indicated that nothing is present apart from his existence, then how come gyani identifies other entities to work for him? If it is like that then, does it not the sign ignorance? Your analogy does not hold water here please.
The GYAnI does not associate the Self with ANY action, even if
it be the actions of Brahma, Vishnu or Siva
Badisa: Yes. But remember! gyani also does actions without any identification. Therefore, I asked earlier, if gyani, without identification of action, can show certain divine powers.
i think SrI Ramesh has wrongly equated a j~nAni with ISvara. it
guess it would suffice to note that A J~NANI DOES NOT
BECOME ISVARA AFTER REALIZATION
Badisa: No please. I did not say that. Gyani attains nirgun Brahman only. I never said that gyani becomes isvara after realization in any of my postings. You can check them thoroughly. What all I asked was that if gyani is divine in absolute sense before death, then I asked if he can show the ability of creation of the universe. Although, saguna Brahman does the creation etc activities, but for that matter where does the saguna Brahman manifest from? From nirgun Brahman only. Although NB has the powers, but by his nirgun aspect he chooses not to involve in creation. But the same divine with gunas is called saguna Brahman. Similarly, when gyani attains niguna Brahman, it is not possible to create the universe. But, gyani, by his saguna aspect can show that he is indeed divine before death by showing his lordly powers, which means that the reference/s from Upanishads, or BS or Gita is sufficient in this regard. So, with respect to this frame of mind, I put the question. This does not
convey the meaning that gyani is equated with Isvara directly.
btw, it is incorrect to say that something is all-pervasive w.r.t. nirguNa brahmam
Badisa: Misunderstanding please. All pervasive is w.r.t NB only. That which has no form can only be all pervasive, and that which has the form is finite. No exception for this.
All-pervasiveness is true only of ISvara (saguNa Brahmam
Badisa: Wrong please. Please refer to BS 4th chapter, where it mentioned about coming of amanav purush from creators place to the soul that is threading on the path of 8/24 of Gita. This purush leads the soul to Brahma Lok (creator). 'Coming' and 'guiding' etc are possible with finiteness. So, all these points, and many other points, conclusively prove that saguna Brahman is finite. I request you to go through the above text. Or you can check my posting dated May 8, 05, vol. 25, issue 7 in this list for some details.
Asking whether a gyAnI can create the universe etc. is useless because a gyAnI finds no need to do so,
Badisa: Who has to say that something is useful or useless from gyAnis perspective? You? When you agreed in your answer that you are agyani, then how can you understand about the gyani? You said it to be impossible. One side the word gyAni is used and other side no need to do is used. Apparently, the implications of no need to do is not understood properly here. When you said that there is nothing but self, then, how come the question of no need arises here. You are contradicting your own statements. By asking if gyani could create the universe, I am asking Brahmasutra, Uapnishads and Gita references to show that ability on gyanis part with respective to saguna aspect. Gyani can still choose not to create it by his nigun aspect.
So gyAni has no reason to demonstrate all this
Badisa: Is it said on behalf of gyAni? If yes, then how come gyAni allowed it to be said when he himself sees nothing but self. How does he allow someone to speak on his behalf when he himself sees nothing but self? How is it possible? Is it how the gyAnis state understood? Or is it the result of understanding of scriptures in literal sense by agyAnis?
. just attempting to understand gyAn through an agyAnis position, which obviously is impossible to accomplish
Badisa: Let us be very honest for one thing here. As of now, are we all gyAnis or agyAnis? Forget about others. Let us think about us. I agree that I am agyAni. How about you? Are you gyAni or agyAni? I cannot determine that honestly. But in your answer you have agreed that you are also agyAni. One side you have mentioned that maybe someday some stroke of knowledge can burn all this away. Good. But on the other side, you are saying the impossibility of understanding gyAn through agyAns position. As we both are agAnis now, the impossibility of understanding of gyAn through our agyAni will make us to remain in 'aganis' positions for ever. It means that as per your understanding no 'agyani' will ever get the state of gyani. Under such conditions, how did you say the possibility of getting someday some stroke of knowledge, which can burn all agyAn away? Is it what sri Ramana Maharshi said in his life? Or is it what sri Shankara wrote in his commentaries? Or this (mis)understanding is
the result of dissecting of words or sentences of the scriptures? Please read how other list members give references and argue their point of views nicely. You quoted one Gita sloka and did not explain in what perspective you felt its relevance to the context of my question. Sorry friend, I found all self contradicting statements in your answer.
doing all this would just mean playing with mAyA, since the created universe and such things are all part of the illusion from which the gyAnI has risen
Badisa: Gyani attains nirgun Brahman. For the sake of creation, saguna Brahman is manifested from the nirgun Brahman. Do you think that SB will now be reluctant to perform creation, based on the fact that all is illusion and playing with maya? No. Your question is like SB saying, I am not interested to get associated with gunas, as I am nirgun before manifestation. Validity of your argument will lead to no creation at all. So, your understanding and arguments are not correct. When gyani attains NB, and when SB manifests from NB for creation, then why cant gyani, while living, show the lordly powers, from SB aspect? Remember, when gyani does actions unattached, then, the same gyani could also show the lordly powers unattached too with SB aspect. The words mAyA and illusion do not carry any weight when dealing with SB aspect.
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