[Advaita-l] Causal Body
kuntimaddisada at yahoo.com
Tue Jun 10 08:53:27 CDT 2003
--- Nomadeva Sharma <nomadeva at yahoo.com> wrote:
> > No that is not a fact - The person when gets up gets
> > the idea of how long he slept - If not he would not
> > have to look at the watch to conclude that "Oh My
> > God I slept that long" - The time is measured in
> Oh no, you are missing the point. The person feels a
> mismatch between the time he thought he slept for and
> 'actual' (for the want of a better term) time.
I do not think I am missing the point Krishna.
There is no time or place concept in the deep Sleep State and that is
the universal experience. The time he thought he slept and the time he
thought he really slept both come with the mind and mind is the
thoughts. In the absence of the mind there is no concept of time or
Vidya has independently posed the same question - where are the indriyas
of Saakshii to perceive independent of the sense/mind/intellect -
suukshma shariira complex?
Please clarify that pint, Krishna.
> This mismatch can occur only if there is some idea of
> time in deep sleep. If there is no such idea, the
> reaction would be that of ignorance, as it appears in
> your statement: "Oh My God I slept that long".
That is only misinterpretation of what actually happens. No mind, no
concept of time and space. This is not inference but factual experience
that need to be interpreted correctly.
> I am not sure if you are aware that this too is
> another point of contention: whether soul experiences
> anything at all.
For Advaitin consciousness, illumines the intellect thus mind and thus
indriyas etc. What you call soul is just a notional I that is due to
apparent identification with the reflected consciousness in the buddhi.
>The mismatch is explained by Advaita
> as a reaction of antaHkaraNa, I am told (I haven't
> checked any source on this). However, that would come
> under your assumptions category. Surely, when I go to
> deep-sleep, I don't see any antaHkaraNa playing around
> using my consciousness. (That was meant as pun)
You are absolutely right about that - which is exactly what I have been
pointing out. In deep sleep there is no antaHkaraNa 'playing around'.
Since playing around involves 'time and space', they are also not there.
Adviatins are self-consistent with the universal experience and with
your above statement, as well.
Saakshii has no other equipments to measure time and space. You may
invoke some swa indriya-s for Saakshii to justify your theory. That is a
postulation to support a theory.
That also leads to another axiomatic statement that 'Saakshii' validates
the right and wrong knowledge on basis of samanvaya.
But if the indriya-s are defective and if one does not know that, the
info provided by the indriya-s are assumed to be right. In what basis
Saakshii-D will validate or invalidate the knowledge provided by the
indriya-s. I need separate pramaaNa for that. I do not think this
question was answered or I might have missed the point.
> We also hold that the soul experiences sukha that it
> recounts later.
> > > Now, I am not sure what you could call as
> > > explanation here. AFAI see it, there is no
> > > explanation at all.
> > > There is a naming ceremony, however. We refer to
> > > 'Whatever goes to deep-sleep' as sAkshi.
> > >
> > No it is not naming - there is assumptions and
> > conclusions, based on the assmptions naming the
> > conclusion.
> While your rejection of the conclusion was itself on
> wrong premise, I just want to point here that we have
> named not the only the conclusion, but something else.
May be, but my rejection is not on a wrong premise unless you can prove
to me that Saakshii has independent upaadhi-s to establish the time and
space. Also has the capability to validate what are Parma and bhrama and
on what basis?. How long Saakshii takes to declare that info that
bhoutika indriyas brought is right or wrong? What pramaaNa does he use?
And how is his judgement true if another Saakshii declares
independently that this Saakshii is wrong? To whom does he reveal - to
the mind. But mind is already settled with the info it got from bhoutika
indriya-s. Do you have two independent knowers here. Krishna, please
unravel the puzzle step by step, just to make sure I am not
misinterpreting the role of Saakshii-D, even if do not agree with
What you have is His gift to you and what you do with what you have is your gift to Him - Swami Chinmayananda.
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