Pre-shankaran Advaitins

Vishal Agarwal vishalagarwal at HOTMAIL.COM
Thu Oct 12 22:39:40 CDT 2000


Please see below:


----Original Message Follows----
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at YAHOO.COM>

1) Are there any extant commentaries on the Brahma-sutra
    before ShrI Shankara?
No.

2) Are there any references to AcharyAs before ShrI
    GaudapAda in any of the works of ShrI Shankara and his
    followers?
Several- Bhartmirtra, Bhartriprapancha, Brahmadatta, Dramida, Tanka,
Vrttikara. In several cases, the purvapaksha is not really named by the
original author, and is identified only by the commentator (like Tikakara
Anandagiri, or Prakatarthavivaranakara).

3) How exactly do we deduce the "philosophies" of
    pre-shankaran vedantins if their commentaries are no
    longer extant?  It seems to me that each and every
school
    can and would cliam them as their own just to gather the
    weight of tradition.
--This is indeed true to some extent. However, we can construct to a fairly
certain degree the main ideas of those pre-Shankaracharya Acharyas from
whose works a very large number of fragments have survived. For instance,
approx 250 from the Bhashya of Bhartriprpancha. 20 or more from Dramida and
also Tanka (if my identification of Tanka with the Atreya Vakyakara of the
Vaisheshika tradition is correct, then we get about 20 additional fragments)
and so on. Some scholars like Ingalls think that Shankaracharya and Bhaskara
owe their common features of BSB to Vrttikaragrantha while others like Klaus
Ruping (book in German) hold that Bhaskara actually did not have the
Vrrtigrantha available to him but merely converted the Purvapaksha of
Shankara to his own uttarapaksha. While such a view is supported by Jong as
well, I think Ingalls was correct.

4) Supposing that it is indeed possible to extrapolate the
    philosophy of pre-shankaran vedantins from references in
    the texts of others, what relevance would it have on
    Advaita?  So, can post-shankaran vedantins claim that
    ShrI Shankara took "liberties" with Vedantic exegesis
    based on the philosophies of pre-shankaran authors?
--That is what the post-Shankaran Vedantins have alleged. Bhaskara calls
Upavarsha as 'shastrasampradaya pravarttaka' and says that Shankaracharya
has imposed his innovations on the Sutras. The Shribhashya also alleges
similar things and claims to follow the Vrttigrantha and its summary by
Tanka and Dramida fairthfully instead. Advaita Darshana is now a full
fledged school in its own right and does not need the support of older
teachers to survive, IMHO.

5) Last but not the least, I have heard that even the
    Shankaran tradition maintains that ShrI Shankara did not
    "invent" anything new but merely established what was
    a very ancient teaching.  If that is the case, why is
    there such a paucity of information on Vedantins
    between ShrI Ved Vyas and ShrI GaudapAdAcharya?  Has the
    Shankaran tradition attempted to explain this?
--Certain Advaitin works like the Ishtasiddhi and Samshepa Shariraka
actually do appeal to the authority of Vakyakara and Dramidabhashyakara in
rare instances. As regards the paucity of information, it does appear that
the Brahmasutras were considered an integral part of the Mimamsashastra of
20 chapters and were largely the preserve of Mimamsakas (this is a hunch).
My own impression is that Shankaracharya and his immediate successors are
not really keen to appeal to the authority of their predecessors. Witness
how many times they criticize the interpretations of the Vrttikara and
Vrttyantakara (Panchapadika etc.)

Sincerely

Vishal


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>From " Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...> Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:04:26 -0000
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:04:26 -0000
Subject: Important: Advaita-L is down and will be back soon
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From: " Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


We are facing some technical difficulties with Advaita-L and have
created this group as a backup server. I will keep you informed. 
Advaita-L should be back to normal in a day or two. 


Thanks

Ravi

bhava shankara deshikame

>From "N.S.M.Ramkumar" <nramkuma at A...> Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:53:24 +0530
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 10:53:24 +0530
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>From Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan at y...> Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:13:24 -0700 (PDT)
Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:13:24 -0700 (PDT)
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Dear Moderator and members of this new group,

It was nice to view the message that you have incluced me in your group.Thus I get to be exposed to more Advaitic thoughts.

Let us meditate thus:

Aatmaiko nishkriyonanto advayo anubhavavigrahahaa

Atamastajja aatmastho jyotishamjyotiraatmabhaah

Meaning:

Aatma ekaha --SELF is single

Nishkriyaha-- Devoid of action

Anantaha--Endless

Advayaha--Non-Dual

Anubhava Vigrahaha--Personification of EXPERIENCE

Atamaha--Devoid of Darkness

Atajjah--( ? )

Aatmasthaha--Established in the SELF

Jyotiahaam Jyotihi--Light of all lights

Aatma bhaah-Self Illuminating

With warm regards,

Hari Om !

Swaminarayan

 

 

 

 



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>From Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan at y...> Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:44:09 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:44:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: some clarifications
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From: Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan at y...>
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Could some of the members explain the subte meanings and differences in the following terms ?

Chit , Chitta , Budhi , Manas , Ahamkaara and AntahkaraNa , 

Brahma ( As in,"Sarvam Etad Brahma" ) and Brahman,

Shiva , Sarveshwaraa , Mahadevaa , Maheshwaraa , Rudraa and RudragaNaas.

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan

 

 

 



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>From "sthanesvar timalsina" <samvidullasa at H...> Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:03:41 UTC
Subject: Re: some clarifications
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:03:41 UTC
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
From: "sthanesvar timalsina" <samvidullasa at H...>


Dear Swaminarayan,
Cit = pure consciousness. This is the reality, the self nature.
Citta = when there is some upAdhi in consciousness. The state "conscious of 
... There cannot be just citta without object to touch.
Buddhi = The decisive factor of inner sense.
Manas = analytica factor of inner sense.
AhamkAra = The subjective part of consciousness when there is the relation 
with object in form of grAhya and grAhaka.
AntahkaraNa = Collective term for all the aspects of manas, buddhi, ahamkAra 
and citta.
The other terms are sometimes denoting the absolute and other times saguNa 
divinity. Regarding which school one follows one can explain these terms.
Sthaneshvar


>From: Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan at y...>
>Reply-To: advaita-l at egroups.com
>To: advaita-l at egroups.com
>Subject: some clarifications
>Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 19:44:09 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>Could some of the members explain the subte meanings and differences in the 
>following terms ?
>
>Chit , Chitta , Budhi , Manas , Ahamkaara and AntahkaraNa ,
>
>Brahma ( As in,"Sarvam Etad Brahma" ) and Brahman,
>
>Shiva , Sarveshwaraa , Mahadevaa , Maheshwaraa , Rudraa and 
>RudragaNaas.
>
>Hari Om!
>
>Swaminarayan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf! It's FREE.
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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>From Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...> Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:47:09 -0600
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:47:09 -0600
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From: Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...>


namaH shivaabhyaa.n vishhamexaNaabhyaa.m
 bilvachchhadaamallikadaamabhR^idbhyaam.h
shobhaavatii shaantavatiishvaraabhyaa.m
 namo namaH sha~Nkarapaarvatiibhyaam.h || 11||

Prostrations to the divine couple shrI shivA and Lord shiva, who have
three eyes, who are adorned (or who bear) garlands made of jasmine
flowers and bilva leaves, who rule this universe and are endowed with
divine qualities like replendence and peace (or who have lordship over
these kalyANa guNa-s), to that shiva parvati I bow again and again.

- The term vishhamexaNa also comes in ardhanArishhvara stotram (verse
4)
http://www.ambaa.org/stotrams/ardhanari.htm
ixaNa means eye or look. vishhama means odd or different. It here
refers to the three eyes of shiva-shakti svarUpam.

- the term vati comes from the root van, one of the meaning of which is
to possess or endowed it. It also means that they can endow that on
others. shobha has many meanings such as, splendour, brilliance,
lustre, beauty, grace, loveliness, etc. And shAnta is unruffled peace.
It is quality of brahman reflecting contentment and fullness
(pUrNatvam). Then that phrase can be interpreted as: They have
lordship over all these kalyaNa guNa-s. Other possible interpretation
is, They rule the universe and are endowed with all these divine
qualities.



Corrections are welcome.

AUM umAmaheshvarAbhyAm

>From Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...> Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:47:58 -0600
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:47:58 -0600
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From: Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...>


-
namaH shivaabhyaaM pashupaalakaabhyaa.m
 jagatrayiiraxaNa baddhahR^idbhyaam.h |
samasta devaasurapuujitaabhyaa.m
 namo namaH sha~Nkarapaarvatiibhyaam.h || 12||

Prostrations to the divine couple shrI shivA and Lord shiva, who
protect and govern the jIva-s, whose hearts are bound to protect the
three worlds (sthUla, sUxma, and kAraNa), who are worshipped by all
deva-s and asura-s, to that shiva parvati I bow again and again.


-Probably the term "jagatrayiiraxaNa baddhahR^idbhyaam.h" can be
interpreted as: they protect the three bodies (at microcosmic level) by
being established/bound in the heart of jIva-s. Or taking hR^ita as
"devoid of" , one can say that, they protect the three worlds and at
the same time are devoid of any bonds. (any suggestions and corrections
are welcome, I apologize for any errors).


stotra.m trisandhya.m shivapaarvatiibhyaam.h
 bhaktyaa paTheddvaadashaka.m naro yaH |
sa sarvasaubhaagya phalaani bhu~Nkte
 shataayuraante shivalokameti || 13||

This is phala shruti. It states: Whoever reads these 12 verses on
shiva-parvatii with devotion thrice a day (morning, noon, and
evening), (s)he will attain all auspicious things to enjoy here for 100
years and at emancipation attain the shiva loka.


iti umaamaheshvarastotra.n

>From Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...> Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:49:06 -0600
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 18:49:06 -0600
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From: Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: UMS - Final
Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2000 22:40:42 -0600
From: "Aravind Krishna" <seeksha at h...>
Reply-To: ambaa-l at egroups.com
To: ambaa-l at egroups.com

>
>This is phala shruti. It states: Whoever reads these 12 verses on
>shiva-parvatii with devotion thrice a day (morning, noon, and
>evening), (s)he will attain all auspicious things to enjoy here for 100
>years and at emancipation attain the shiva loka.
>

Once swami paramaarthaananda said this,
?This guy is asking for shataayur. So even when he is 100 he would chant
the
shloka and ask for another 100. This could be a continuous process. If
paramaatma is not going to grant that the shloka is a myth. It?s
impossible
to live forever. So what does this shataayuH mean ? . It means, O! Lord
give
me a long life, with in that span let me know what is to be known that
would
lead from mR^ityu to amR^ita. In that way it means an eternal life. In
short
the prArtana is for AuShprApti dvArA Atama vichArAnukUla prApti, Atma
vichArAt GYAna prApti, GYAnAt amR^ita prApti.?

Thanks to Ravi or his wonderful

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:23:13 +0800
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 12:23:13 +0800
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Ravi Mayavaram wrote:

> namaH shivaabhyaa.n vishhamexaNaabhyaa.m
> bilvachchhadaamallikadaamabhR^idbhyaam.h
> shobhaavatii shaantavatiishvaraabhyaa.m
> namo namaH sha~Nkarapaarvatiibhyaam.h || 11||
>
> Prostrations to the divine couple shrI shivA and Lord shiva, who have
> three eyes, who are adorned (or who bear) garlands made of jasmine
> flowers and bilva leaves, who rule this universe and are endowed with
> divine qualities like replendence and peace (or who have lordship over
> these kalyANa guNa-s), to that shiva parvati I bow again and again.
>
> - The term vishhamexaNa also comes in ardhanArishhvara stotram (verse
> 4)
> http://www.ambaa.org/stotrams/ardhanari.htm
> ixaNa means eye or look. vishhama means odd or different. It here
> refers to the three eyes of shiva-shakti svarUpam.

 The word vishhama (vi + sama) means not even. It refers to any odd
number
 like 3,5, etc. Here it refers to the number3 . Elsewhere it can mean
any other
 odd number. e.g., Manmatha is called vishama sharaH- having 5 arrows.

>
> - the term vati comes from the root van, one of the meaning of which is
> to possess or endowed it.

 van is not a root. vat is a suffix to indicate one who has or
possesses
 a certain thing. Like dhanavat is one who has dhanam. The nominative
singular
 masculine form is dhanavaan. The feminine form becomes dhanavatii.
Similarly
 jnaanavaan, viiryavaan, bhagavaan, etc become jnaanavatii,
viiryavatii, bhagavatii
 respectively. In some cases, the suffix is mat as in shaktimaan,
buddhimaan,
 shRiimaan etc. The corresponding feminine forms will be shaktimatii,
buddhimatii,
 shriimatii etc.
 shaanta- vatii does not appear to be the correct form. Shaanta is
itself an adjective
 and cannot take a further suffix. shaanti is the noun. It will
take the suffix mat and not vat.
 It would then be shantimatii. Please check up.

 AUM umAmaheshvarAbhyAm namaH

 ---

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:33:22 +0800
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 20:33:22 +0800
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Ravi Mayavaram wrote:

> -
> namaH shivaabhyaaM pashupaalakaabhyaa.m
> jagatrayiiraxaNa baddhahR^idbhyaam.h |
> samasta devaasurapuujitaabhyaa.m
> namo namaH sha~Nkarapaarvatiibhyaam.h || 12||
>
> Prostrations to the divine couple shrI shivA and Lord shiva, who
> protect and govern the jIva-s, whose hearts are bound to protect the
> three worlds (sthUla, sUxma, and kAraNa), who are worshipped by all
> deva-s and asura-s, to that shiva parvati I bow again and again.
>
> -Probably the term "jagatrayiiraxaNa baddhahR^idbhyaam.h" can be
> interpreted as: they protect the three bodies (at microcosmic level) by
> being established/bound in the heart of jIva-s. Or taking hR^ita as
> "devoid of" , one can say that, they protect the three worlds and at
> the same time are devoid of any bonds. (any suggestions and corrections
> are welcome, I apologize for any errors).

 baddha-hRit means one who has made a firm resolve to do
something.
 shiva and shivaa have committed themselves to protecting the three
worlds.
 The three worlds may be - svarga (world of divine beings),
martyaloka
 ( world of the humans), and paataala (world of the demons).

 Also, please check up the word jagat-trayii-rakshaNa.
 The word jagat is neuter gender, so the three worlds together would be
 jagat-trayam , not jagat-trayii. It is likely to be
jagat-traya-rakshhaNa


> -- Regards.



>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:20:57 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 08:20:57 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


 Notes on BSBI-i-2-1E

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
 asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 janmaadi adhikaraNam 2
 suutra 1 : janmaadyasya yataH |




We are discussing Shankara's description of the Iswara in terms of
sarva-j~natvam.

Shankara in his description uses another adjective- manasaa api
achintya rachanaa ruupasya. A scientist can possibly determine how
the brain functions, but he cannot recreate such a complex organ.
The Lord not only has omniscience - the know-how of how to create but
to implement that knowledge or execute that technology. That is, He
has enough power and skill to produce such a complex creation. One
can see and destroy an ant or bug easily or swallow the whole chicken
in few minutes after frying it. But to produce such a complex living
entity that can reproduce itself is unimaginable and we can not but
admire that great designer and executor. Hence Shankara says He is
sarvaj~na and sarvashaktimaan due to sarva kaaraNatvaat - cause for
everything.

This is the final meaning of the suutra 2. To summarize - the
meaning is yasmaat abhinna nimitta upaadaana kaaraNaat, aananda
swaruupaat, sarvaj~naat, sarva shaktaat, pratyaksha prapanchasya
sR^ishhTi sthiti layaaH sambavanti, tat brahma. Because of which the
non-differentiable intelligent and material cause, which is of the
form of pure bliss, omniscient, omnipotent cause for creation,
sustenance and dissolution of the visible universe - that is Brahman.

With this Shankara concludes his commentary on the second suutra.
After the conclusion he enters into another discussion by introducing
a puurvapaksha or objection from nayyayika-s (nyaaya philosophers).
Because of its importance we will discuss that aspect here.

The first suutra says that we have to do Brahman inquiry. This can
done only after it is established that there is something called
Brahman. To establish Brahman, it was said that - lakshaNa
pramaaNaabhyaam vasti siddhiH - we need a lakshaNam or a definition
and pramaaNa and means of knowing it. The second suutra provides
that lakshaNa for Brahman and the third suutra will provide pramaaNa
required. In the third suutra it is said that the pramaaNam for
Brahman is shaatram - shaatra yonitvaat. Now nayyaayika comes up
with a suggestion. He says why cannot one take the second suutra
itself as a pramaaNam for Brahman also. According to him, the second
suutra defines Brahman or Iswara as jagat kaaraNam, cause for the
world. Since jagat kaaraNam is Brahman, conversely jagat is kaaryam
of Brahman. That is if Brahman or Iswara is the defined as the cause
or kaaraNam, then the world is the effect or kaaryam of Iswara
(nayyayika-s use Iswara instead of Brahman). Hence naayayika-s say
that the invisible Iswara can be inferred from the visible world just
as the invisible fire can be inferred from the visible smoke. Hence
nayyayika-s say the pramaaNam for Iswara can be simply anumaanam or
inference or logic. This anumaanam is popularly known in tarka
shaastra as - kaarya lingaka anumaanam - the inference of invisible
kaaraNam or cause from visible kaaryam, or effect. From this
nayyayika arrives at a conclusion that shaastra pramaaNam is not
required to prove the existence of Iswara. Logic itself can do the
job without the need of shaastra. Generally it is understood that if
direct perception, pratyaksha, can establish an object, then we do
not need logic. Likewise, if pratyaksha cannot but logic can do the
job, then we do not need the next one, shabda pramaaNa to establish
the object. Hence Nayyaayika-s argue that there is no need for
shaastra pramaaNa to establish Iswara.

Advaitins as well as other vedantins would not agree for that. Iswara
cannot be established by pure logic without the help of shaastram.
There is a radical difference between tarkika and the vedantin. For
tarkika the logic is the primary means of knowledge with regard to
Iswara and shaastra is only of secondary importance while for
Vedantin it is the other way around (see Notes I for reference). We
will analyze this in detail since the relative roles of shaastra
pramaaNa versus anumaana pramaaNa will be established from the point
of two different philosophies, aastika-s vs. naastika-s.

Nayyayika-s argue that we do not need shaastra to prove the existence
of the Iswara. Just as when we see a person, even though we do not
know any thing about his parents, we know that he must have parents.
The very presence of an effect presupposes the existence of the
cause. Hence if there is a product there must be a producer whose
existence I can infer. Since the world or jagat is seen, there must
be a creator, Iswara. Thus by inference or anumaana, I can know the
existence of Iswara without the need of shaastra-s. Hence for
establishing Iswara or Brahman, anumaanam can serve as pramaaNam and
shaastram is not required - this is nayyaayika-s argument.

Shankara says it is not so. The second suutra does not provide
anumaana pramaaNam for brahma siddhi or Iswara sidhhi. Shankra gives
a simple reason for this, but the subcommentators provide additional
reasons. The argument is as follows. Vyasacharya does not propound
a new philosophy by using his reasoning power. This is in contrast
to many of darshanams (see Ch.I-for details) where the basis of their
new philosophy is the reasoning or anumaana pramaaNa. These include
sankhya, yoga, nyaaya, vaisheshhika, etc. all of which propound new
philosophies primarily based on tarka or anumaanam; and Shankara
calls all of them together as taarkika-s. They accept the sruthi
pramaaNam only as subservient to anumaaNa. Uniqueness of
Brahmasuutra is Vyasacharya does not establish the philosophy through
reasoning. He uses reasoning not to propound a new philosophy but
only to derive a cogent systematic philosophy of the Veda-s. Hence
every suutra has got one or many Vedanta vaakyam-s or vishhaya
vaakyam-s as its basis. If one claims that the second suutra
establishes Iswara by anumaana pramaaNa then the very purpose of
Brahasuutra is defeated. Hence Shankara uses a beautiful line which
is often quoted and which was provided in Ch. I - vedaanta vaakya
kusuma grathanaarthatvaat suutraanaam - every suutra is providing an
anumaaNam or reasoning alright but this reasoning is not an
independent anumaanam. It is used only to bring out the Vedantic
teaching in cogent form. It is like a thread to create a necklace or
garland of the flowers of Vedanta Vaakyam-s. Here the garland is the
Vedanta darshanam and the flowers are the veda vaakyam-s. The
tarka-thread is only hiding behind the flowers as subservient factor
and has no independent utility other than tying the flowers together
to form a beautiful garland of cogent vedatic philosophy. Hence the
second suutra does not provide an independent anumaana pramaaNa but
it is there to analyze the Vedanta vaakyam quoted before: "etova
imaani bhuutaani jaayante ...." to provide lakshaNa suutra but not
pramaaNa suutra. - This is the simpler answer Shankar gives. The
subcommentators provide further
   arguments.

It is clear from their puurvapaksha, nayyaayika-s believe that Iswara
can be logically established. Vedantins vehemently disagree with
nayyayika-s in this aspect. Vedantins strongly believe that Iswara
or Brahman is revealed through shaastra alone. For Vedantins, Iswara
that is revealed through shaastra can be assimilated through logic.
In the discussions that follow we will see that nayaayika-s use
aanumaana pramaaNam to establish Iswara and Vedantins take the
position like that of DMK politicians in Madras to show that their
logic is defective.

Now nayyayika-s arguments: They deduce Iswara through three
anumaanam-s or logical statements. (See Ch. II for discussion of
anumaana pramaaNa.) 1. kshityankuradhikam (or jagat) sakartR^ikam,
kaaryatvaat, ghatavat. - That is, the world must have a creator,
because it is an effect or product like a pot. The vyaapti vaakyam
for this is - yad yad kaaryam tad tad sakartR^ikam, that is, whatever
is product, it must have been created (by a creator). From this
anumaanam, they deduce first that there is a creator. 2. The second
anumaanam vaakyam is, jagat kartaa IswaraH, jiiva bhinnatvesati
chetanatvaat, vyatirekena kulaalavat. In this anumaanam nayyayika
establishes that the creator must be Iswara alone, because no jiiva
can create this world and since the creator has to be an intelligent
or conscious being. Since there are only three entities, jiiva,
jagat and Iswara, conscious intelligent being other than jiiva is
only Iswara, and hence the creator of this world has to be Iswara.
This is called paarisheshha nyaaya, the logic by elimination and
residue. It is unlike a pot-maker, since like example cannot be given
as it is one of a kind. The vyaapti vaakyam is yat
jiivabhinnatvesati chetanam tat IswaraH - whatever is conscious being
other than jiiva that must be IswaraH. 3. The third anumaana vaakyam
is - IswaraH sarvaj~naH sarvakartR^itvaat vyatirekena kulaalavat -
that is IswaraH is omniscient since he is a creator of everything
unlike alpaj~na kulaalaH or our good old pot maker who has knowledge
of only how to make a pot. The vyaapti vaakyam is yatra sarva
kartR^itvam tatra sarvaj~natvam api bhavati. This is called lakshaNa
lingaka anumaanam. Thus nayyayika logically establishes sarvaj~na
IswaraH, omniscient Lord. Therefore he argues that existence of
Iswara can be established logically and we do not need Veda-s to do,
that. A modern day rational intellect is more happy with a nayyayika
than a Vedantin who relays on shaastra which requires a faith.

Vedantin claims all these anumaana vaakyam-s or logical statements
are defective. Let us examine the first anumaanam - jagat
sakartR^ikam, karyatvaat, ghatavat - the world is a creator because
it is a product, like a pot. For this nayyayika uses a vyaapti
j~naanam - yad yad kaaryam sakartR^ikam, wherever there is product
there must be a creator - example is like a pot. Every anumaana
vaakyam must require a vyaapti and this vyaapti vaakyam (statement
expressing concomitant relationship between hetu and saadhya - see
Ch. II) is derived from pratyaksha pramaaNa only. anumaanam requires
vyaapti j~naanam and vyaapti j~naanam is established by pratyaksha
pramaaNam alone. If vyaapti j~naanam is established by another
anumaanam then that second anumaanam requires another vyaapti and
this leads to infinite regress problem. It cannot be by shaastram
either, since nayyaayika-s have already rejected shaastra pramaaNam.
Like the example we gave in Ch. II - yatra yatra dhuumaH tatra tatra
agniH - this vyaapti j~naanam is arrived only by pratyaksha pramaaNam
only - or by direct observation. vyaapti arrived by observation is
valid only if it holds good in all the cases. Hence wherever there
is a smoke there is a fire is a valid vyaapti but the converse
wherever there is fire there is smoke is not a valid vyaapti, since
it does not hold good all the time.

Now Vedantin argues - if you say where there is product there is a
creator - this is proved by pratyaksha only if the products are
man-made. How about natural products - there the creator for these
products are not perceptually proved. Therefore the defect in the
first anumaana is vyaapti asidhiH since there is no pratyaksha or
direct observation of the creation of the universe by IshwaraH.

Let us examine the second anumaana - jagat kartaa IswaraH, jiiva
bhinnatvesati chetanatvaat, vyatirekena kulaalavat - Iswara is the
creator of jagat, since He is a conscious entity different from
jiiva. For this vyaapti j~naanam involves establishing that wherever
there is a conscious being other than jiiva is involved, it must be
IshwaraH. That means the vyaapti statement involves a presupposition
of the existence of Ishwara who is other than jiiva. But vyaapti
j~naanam must be gathered by pratyaksha pramaaNam only or by direct
perception since nayyayika has already discarded shaashtra pramaaNam.
But through perception we cannot talk about a conscious being other
than jiiva. Hence the second anumaanam is also defective since
vyaapti vaakyam cannot be established by pratyaksha.

Now the third anumaana: IswaraH sarvaj~naH sarvakartR^itvaat
vyatirekena kulaalavat - Iswara is omniscient since He is the creator
of everything. Now to negate this anumaana we need to examine some
'axioms' that nayyayika-s have assumed in developing their
philosophy. Nayyayika-s say that every knowledge is born out of
mind. - yat j~naanam tat manojanyam - This axiomatic statement is
made since they depend heavily on the perceptions and inferences for
their philosophy. There may not be any problem with this statement
but in a different place they make another statement which appears to
be unrelated to this - IswaraH asshariiraH - that is Ishwara does not
have body- that statement includes sthuula suuksham kaaraNa
shariiraani - gross, subtle and causal bodies - which obviously
includes the mind which is part of subtle body. The reason they took
mind away from Iswara is of their presumption that wherever there is
mind there is samsaara - since Ishwara cannot have samsaara, He is
made devoid of mind. Since according to nayyayikaas own statements
- that the mind is required for j~naanam and Iswara does not have
mind - hence it follows that Iswara being mind-less cannot have any
knowledge leave alone the sarvaj~natvam. This defect is called -
swa,abhyupagama virodhaH - defect involving self-contradiction or
contradicting ones own statements. Thus Vedantin proves that
nayyayika-s third anumaanam is also defective. (For the record,
these arguments are from the commentary called PuurNaanandiiyam by
PuurNaananda Saraswati which itself is a comentary on Bhaashya
Ratnaprabha by Govindaananda Saraswati which is in turn a comentary
on Shankara Bhaashyam).

Hence anumaanam which is based on pratyaksha cannot be a pramaaNa for
establishing Ishwara, who is beyond the human perception and hence
beyond inference. Iswara established by anumaanam can be negated by
anumaanam. Hence shaastra alone is the valid pramaaNa for that which
is beyond the perceptual knowledge. If vedantin uses logic it is
blessed by shaastram - shruti sammata tarkena Iswara sidhhiH, na tu
kevala tarkena or sushhka tarkena Iswara sidhhiH. That is logic
supported by the shaashtra is only valid for entities that cannot be
established by direct perception. The logic supported by direct
perceptions are invalid to establish Iswara since He is beyond direct
perception.

One more point Shankara makes in his bhaashyam. The discussion does
not mean that tarka is totally useless in the inquiry. Shankara
emphasizes that tarka is important when properly used with the
support of Shaastra. - shrotavyaH, mantavyaH, nidhidhyaasitavyaH -
the word manthavyaH indicates tarka is imporant for understanding
Vedanta. In fact the whole Brahmasuutra is called nyaaya prasthaanam
- logical analysis of upanishhad-s. Hence the use of tarka as
subservient in understanding Vedanta. Shankara gives the reason why
tarka is important in Vedanta. He contrasts the karma kaandam and
j~nanakaandam - in karma kaanDa tarka has got a limited role. There
procedures of rituals is more important - what should be done rather
than why should it be done - There the knowledge of a ritual does not
produce the results - performance of the ritual does. The benefit is
the result of accomplishment of a ritual in time or time-bound.
Hence Shankara's language - karmakaandasya saadhyavishhayatvaat karma
pradhaanam, j~naanam apradhaanam - since it deals with something to
be produced in future doing is important and knowing has only an
indirect role. Suppose if moksha is something to be produced in
future then like karma kaanDa, procedure is important than knowledge
- hence people say I have studied Vedanta and now I have to practice
or do more practice - some meditation or something else. Shankara
says this is the common misconception. Vedanta does not deal with a
future event - the result of a process or procedure. We are not
learning any procedure, any technique or method of meditation through
Vedanta or implement something after Vedantic study. It is dealing
with the fact of moksha - which is an accomplished fact! - which one
has to understand. The whole Vedantic saadhana is only a process of
understanding and there is nothing to implement after understanding.
With the understanding the end is accomplished. Whatever the
obstruction in understanding need to be eliminated. One of the
obstruction is the intellect itself in the form of samshayaH or doubt
- Hence tarka or mananam is very important - it is not an independent
tarka but to remove the intellectual obstacles created in
assimilating the Vedantic teaching. Hence tarka serves in the
understanding the Vedantic teaching and in assimilating that teaching
as ones own. There is nothing to do after understanding since the
very understanding involves - I am akarthaa and abhoktaa. - I have
nothing to do as I am ever liberated. - Hence Shankara says shruti
is imporant,
   yukti is important and finally anubhava, which involves
assimilating the knowledge as ones own, is important. Anubhava is
important only because our samsaara is present only in the form of
anubhava - I am limited, I am small, the helplessness- the feeling of
inadequacy, the misery due to that feeling, the doubt about oneself,
the doubt about the teaching of Vedanta, etc. The moksha is freedom
from these sensations - the puurnatvam, the samatvam - it is not
anubhava or experience in the form of mystic experience that comes
and goes, but anubhava in the form of full freedom from all
limitations. The understanding is complete when the samsaara
bhaavana or vipariita bhaavana goes away- Hence the benefit of this
understanding is HERE and NOW - That I am eternally free and never
was bound for any process of un-bounding required. Hence inquiry is
to be done using shaastra sammata tarka.

With this Shankara's commentary on the second suutra is over. Next
the conclusion part.

Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://www.egroups.com/files/advaitin/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:46:55 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:46:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Study of Scriptures
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Tue, 23 Jan 2001 16:40:54 -0800, S. V. Subrahmanian
<svsubrahmanian at Y...> wrote:


>Continuing further on the topic...
>
>"One should not approach the study of scriptures out of mere charismatic
appeal
>for Sri Sankara, but instead should focus on trying to understand the
vision of
>the Rishis (and Sankara)".

This is excellent advice. It is a sad commentary on the status of
study of advaita literature when many people merely worship books
in their homes without opening them and trying to read a page!
This seems to be even a bit hypocritical, because
they argue that Shankara's philosophy is the best, but yet they
never dig deep enough into any work. Actually in Kannada, whenever
someone simply wastes away his/her resources without utilizing
them himself/herself or giving them to others interested in
utilizing them, we have a saying to the effect, "Don't simply
do pUjA to it." This is said in a quite negative sense.

Advaita works are sacred in one sense but we should not make them
so sacred that we don't even touch

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:40:48 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 10:40:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


Sign of old-age is showing up! The notes just posted should be Notes
BSB-I-i-2-1D rather 1E. Please make corrections to the the title.

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:04:00 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:04:00 -0500
Subject: Re: advaita-siddhi 18 - correction
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:27:01 -0500, Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...>
wrote:

>
>5) The definition is flawed
>---------------------------
>...
>is absent in the illusory thing. This gives rise to the defect
>of sAdhya-vikalatA, ie. the definition is defective because
>we see that mithyAtva is really not defined as GYAnanivartyatva
>but as "adhiShThAna-sAxAtkAratva", which makes the advaitin's
>attempt to prove the GYAnanivartyatva version futile!

The correct expression here should be "adhiShThAna-sAxAtkAra-nivartyatva"
instead

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:12:09 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 14:12:09 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-2-1D
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


Inadvertently an uncorrected version got posted in the morning. Here
is the corrected version. (These passive voices are useful, aren't
they, to put the blame on non-free will factors!). Please substitute
the new version in place of the old. The contents, of course, remain
the same, since it is 'vaachaarambhanam vikaaro naamadheyam' (the
transformation is only apparent in the name and form) and we are
advaitins!


 Notes on BSB I-i-2-1D

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
 asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 janmaadi adhikaraNam 2
 suutra 1 : janmaadyasya yataH |


We are discussing Shankara's description of the Iswara in terms of
sarvaj~natvam.

Shankara in his description uses another adjective- manasaa api
achintya rachanaa ruupasya. A scientist can possibly determine how
the brain functions, but he cannot recreate such a complex organ. The
Lord not only has omniscience - the know-how of how to create but to
implement that knowledge or execute that technology. That is, He has
enough power and skill to produce such a complex creation. One can
see and destroy an ant or bug easily or swallow the whole chicken in
few minutes after frying it. But to produce such a complex living
entity that can reproduce itself is unimaginable and we can not but
admire that great designer and executor. Hence Shankara says He is
sarva-j~na and sarva-shaktimaan due to sarva kaaraNatvaat - cause for
everything.

This is the final meaning of the suutra 2. To summarize the whole
thing - the meaning is yasmaat abhinna nimitta upaadaana kaaraNaat ,
aananda swaruupaat , sarva-j~naat , sarva shaktaat , pratyaksha
prapa~nchasya sR^ishhTi sthiti layaaH sambhavanti , tat brahma.
Because of which the non-differentiable intelligent and material
cause, which is of the form of pure bliss, omniscient, omnipotent
cause for creation, sustenance and dissolution of the visible
universe - that is Brahman.

With this Shankara concludes his commentary on the second suutra.
After the conclusion he enters into another discussion by introducing
a puurvapaksha or objection from nayyayika -s (nyaaya philosophers).
Because of its importance we will discuss that aspect here.

The first suutra says that we have to do Brahman inquiry. This can
be done only after it is established that there is something called
Brahman. To establish Brahman, it was said that - lakshaNa
pramaaNaabhyaam vastu siddhiH - we need a lakshaNam or a definition
and pramaaNa and means of knowing it. The second suutra provides
that lakshaNa for Brahman and the third suutra will provide pramaaNa
required. In the third suutra it is said that the pramaaNam for
Brahman is shaastram - shaastra yonitvaat . Now nayyaayika comes up
with a suggestion. He says why cannot one take the second suutra
itself as a pramaaNam for Brahman also. According to him, the second
suutra defines Brahman or Iswara as jagat kaaraNam, cause for the
world. Since jagat kaaraNam is Brahman, conversely jagat is kaaryam
of Brahman. That is if Brahman or Iswara is defined as the cause or
kaaraNam, then the world is the effect or kaaryam of Iswara
(nayyayika-s use Iswara instead of Brahman). Hence naayayika-s say
that the invisible Iswara can be inferred from the visible world just
as the invisible fire can be inferred from the visible smoke. Hence
nayyayika-s say the pramaaNam for Iswara can be simply anumaanam or
inference or logic. This anumaanam is popularly known in tarka
shaastra as - kaarya li~Ngaka anumaanam - the inference of invisible
kaaraNam or cause from visible kaaryam , or effect. From this
nayyayika arrives at a conclusion that shaastra pramaaNam is not
required to prove the existence of Iswara. Logic itself can do the
job without the need of shaastra. Generally it is understood that if
direct perception, pratyaksha, can establish an object, then we do
not need logic. Likewise, if pratyaksha cannot but logic can do the
job, then we do not need the next one, shabda pramaaNa to establish
the object. Hence nayyaayika -s argue that there is no need for
shaastra pramaaNa to establish Iswara.

Advaitin as well as other vedantins would not agree for that. Iswara
cannot be established by pure logic without the help of shaastram.
There is a radical difference between taarkika and the vedantin. For
taarkika the logic is the primary means of knowledge with regard to
Iswara and shaastra is only of secondary importance while for
Vedantin it is the other way around (see Notes I for reference). We
will analyze this in detail since the relative roles of shaastra
pramaaNa versus anumaana pramaaNa will be established from the point
of two different philosophies, aastika -s vs. naastika -s.

nayyayika-s argue that we do not need shaastra to prove the existence
of the Iswara. Just as when we see a person, even though we do not
know any thing about his parents, we know that he must have parents.
The very presence of an effect presupposes the existence of the
cause. Hence if there is a product there must be a producer whose
existence I can infer. Since the world or jagat is seen, there must
be a creator, Iswara. Thus by inference or anumaana, I can know the
existence of Iswara without the need of shaastra -s. Hence for
establishing Iswara or Brahman, anumaanam can serve as pramaaNam and
shaastram is not required - this is nayyaayika's argument.

Shankara says it is not so. The second suutra does not provide
anumaana pramaaNam for brahma siddhi or iishwara sidhhi. Shankara
gives a simple reason for this, but the subcommentators provide
additional reasons. The argument is as follows. Vyasacharya does
not propound a new philosophy by using his reasoning power. This is
in contrast to many of darshanams (see Ch.I-for details) where the
basis of their new philosophy is the or anumaana pramaaNa. These
include saa~Nkhya, yoga, nyaaya, vaisheshhika, etc. all of which
propound new philosophies primarily based on tarka or anumaanam; and
Shankara calls all of them together as taarkika -s. They accept the
shruti pramaaNam only as subservient to anumaaNa. Uniqueness of
Brahmasutra is Vyasacharya does not establish the philosophy through
reasoning. He uses reasoning not to propound a new philosophy but
only to derive a cogent systematic philosophy of the Vedas. Hence
every suutra has got one or many Vedanta vaakyam -s or vishhaya
vaakyam -s as its basis. If one claims that the second suutra
establishes Iswara by anumaana pramaaNa then the very purpose of
Brahasuutra is defeated. Hence Shankara uses a beautiful line which
is often quoted and which was provided in Ch. I - vedaanta vaakya
kusuma grathanaarthatvaat suutraaNaam - every suutra is providing an
anumaaNam or reasoning alright but this reasoning is not an
independent anumaanam. It is used only to bring out the Vedantic
teaching in cogent form. It is like a thread to create a necklace or
garland of the flowers of vedaanta vaakyam -s. Here the garland is
the vedaanta darshanam and the flowers are the veda vaakyam -s.
The,tarka - thread is only hiding behind the flowers as subservient
factor and has no independent utility other than tying the flowers
together to form a beautiful garland of cogent vedantic philosophy.
Hence the
   second suutra does not provide an independent anumaana
pramaaNa but it is there to analyze the vedaanta vaakyam quoted
before: "etova imaani bhuutaani jaayante ...." to provide lakshaNa
suutra but not pramaaNa suutra. - This is the simpler answer
Shankara gives. The subcommentators provide further arguments.

It is clear from their puurvapaksha , nayyaayika -s believe that
Iswara can be logically established. Vedantins vehemently disagree
with nayyayika -s in this aspect. Vedantins strongly believe that
Iswara or Brahman is revealed through shaastra alone. For Vedantins,
Iswara that is revealed through shaastra can be assimilated through
logic. In the discussions that follow we will see that nayaayika -s
use anumaana pramaaNam to establish Iswara and Vedantins take the
position like that of DMK politicians in Madras to show that their
logic is defective.

Now nayyayika -s arguments: They deduce Iswara through three
anumaanam -s or logical statements. (See Ch. II for discussion of
anumaana pramaaNa.) 1. kshitya~Nkuradhikam (or jagat) sakartR^ikam,
kaaryatvaat , ghaTavat . - That is, the world must have a creator,
because it is an effect or product like a pot. The vyaapti vaakyam
for this is - yat yat kaaryam tat tat sakartR^ikam , that is,
whatever is product, it must have been created (by a creator). From
this anumaanam, they deduce first that there is a creator. 2. The
second anumaana vaakyam is, jagat kartaa iishvaraH , jiiva bhinnatve
sati chetanatvaat , vyatirekeNa kulaalavat. In this anumaanam ,
nayyayika establishes that the creator must be Iswara alone, because
no jiiva can create this world and since the creator has to be an
intelligent or conscious being. Since there are only three entities,
jiiva , jagat and iishvara , conscious intelligent being other than
jiiva is only Iswara, and hence the creator of this world has to be
Iswara. This is called paarisheshha nyaaya , the logic by elimination
and residue. It is unlike a pot-maker, since like example cannot be
given as it is one of a kind. The vyaapti vaakyam is yat jiiva
bhinnatve sati chetanam tat iishvaraH - whatever is conscious being
other than jiiva that must be IswaraH. 3. The third anumaana vaakyam
is - iishvaraH sarva-j~naH sarva-kartR^itvaat vyatirekeNa kulaalavat
- that is IswaraH is omniscient since he is a creator of everything
unlike alpa-j~na kulaalaH or our good old pot maker who has knowledge
of only how to make a pot. The vyaapti vaakyam is yatra sarva
kartR^itvam tatra sarva-j~natvam api bhavati. This is called
lakshaNa li~Ngaka anumaanam. Thus nayyayika logically establishes
sarva-j~na iishvaraH, omniscient Lord. Therefore he argues that
existence of Iswara can be established logically and we do not need
Vedas to do that. A modern day rational intellect is more happy with
a nayyayika than a Vedantin who relies on shaastra which requires a
faith.

Vedantin claims all these anumaana vaakyam -s or logical statements
are defective. Let us examine the first anumaanam - jagat
sakartR^ikam, kaaryatvaat, ghaTavat - the world is a creation because
it is a product, like a pot. For this nayyayika uses a vyaapti
j~naanam - yat yat kaaryam sakartR^ikam, wherever there is product
there must be a creator - example is like a pot. Every anumaana
vaakyam must require a vyaapti and this vyaapti vaakyam (statement
expressing concomitant relationship between hetu and saadhya - see
Ch. II) is derived from pratyaksha pramaaNa only. anumaanam requires
vyaapti j~naanam and vyaapti j~naanam is established by pratyaksha
pramaaNam alone. If vyaapti j~naanam is established by another
anumaanam then that second anumaanam requires another vyaapti and
this leads to infinite regress problem. It cannot be by shaastram
either, since nayyaayika -s have already rejected shaastra pramaaNam.
Like the example we gave in Ch. II - yatra yatra dhuumaH tatra tatra
agniH - this vyaapti j~naanam is arrived only by pratyaksha pramaaNam
only - or by direct observation. vyaapti arrived by observation is
valid only if it holds good in all the cases. Hence wherever there
is a smoke there is a fire is a valid vyaapti but the converse
wherever there is fire there is smoke is not a valid vyaapti, since
it does not hold good all the time.

Now Vedantin argues - if you say where there is product there is a
creator - this is proved by pratyaksha only if the products are
man-made. How about natural products - there the creator for these
products are not perceptually proved. Therefore the defect in the
first anumaana is vyaapti asiddhiH since there is no pratyaksha or
direct observation of the creation of the universe by Iswara.

Let us examine the second anumaana - jagat kartaa iishvaraH , jiiva
bhinnatve sati chetanatvaat , vyatirekeNa kulaalavat - Iswara is the
creator of jagat, since He is a conscious entity different from jiiva
. For this vyaapti j~naanam involves establishing that wherever there
is a conscious being other than jiiva is involved, it must be Iswara.
That means the vyaapti statement involves a presupposition of the
existence of Ishwara who is other than jiiva. But vyaapti j~naanam
must be gathered by pratyaksha pramaaNam only or by direct perception
since nayyayika has already discarded shaashtra pramaaNam . But
through perception we cannot talk about a conscious being other than
jiiva. Hence the second anumaanam is also defective since vyaapti
vaakyam cannot be established by pratyaksha .

Now the third anumaana: iishvaraH sarva-j~naH sarva-kartR^itvaat
vyatirekeNa kulaalavat - Iswara is omniscient since He is the creator
of everything. Now to negate this anumaana we need to examine some
'axioms' that nayyayika -s have assumed in developing their
philosophy. nayyayika-s say that every knowledge is born out of
mind. - yat j~naanam tat manojanyam - This axiomatic statement is
made since they depend heavily on the perceptions and inferences for
their philosophy. There may not be any problem with this statement
but in a different place they make another statement which appears to
be unrelated to this - iishvaraH asshariiraH - that is Ishwara does
not have body- that statement includes sthuula suuksham kaaraNa
shariiraaNi - gross, subtle and causal bodies - which obviously
includes the mind which is part of subtle body. The reason they took
mind away from Iswara is of their presumption that wherever there is
mind there is sa.nsaara - since Ishwara cannot have sa.nsaara, He is
made devoid of mind. Since according to nayyayikaa 's own
statements - that the mind is required for j~naanam and Iswara does
not have mind - hence it follows that Iswara being mind-less cannot
have any knowledge leave alone the sarva-j~natvam. This defect is
called - swa
abhyupagama virodhaH - defect involving self-contradiction or
contradicting ones own statements. Thus Vedantin proves that
nayyayika -s third anumaanam is also defective. (For the record,
these arguments are from the commentary called puurNaanandiiyam by
Purnananda Saraswati which itself is a commentary on bhaashya
ratnaprabhaa by Govindananda Saraswati which is in turn a comentary
on Shankara Bhashya).

Hence anumaanam which is based on pratyaksha cannot be a pramaaNa for
establishing Ishwara, who is beyond the human perception and hence
beyond inference. Iswara established by anumaanam can be negated by
anumaanam. Hence shaastra alone is the valid pramaaNa for that which
is beyond the perceptual knowledge. If vedantin uses logic it is
blessed by shaastram - shruti sammata tarkeNa iishvara sidhhiH, na tu
kevala tarkeNa , or shushhka tarkeNa iishvara sidhhiH. That is logic
supported by the shaashtra is only valid for entities that cannot be
established by direct perception. The logic supported by direct
perceptions are invalid to establish Iswara since He is beyond direct
perception.

One more point Shankara makes in his bhaashyam. The discussion does
not mean that tarka is totally useless in the inquiry. Shankara
emphasizes that tarka is important when properly used with the
support of shaastra. - shrotavyaH , mantavyaH , nidhidhyaasitavyaH -
the word mantavyaH indicates tarka is imporant for understanding
Vedanta. In fact the whole Brahmasutra is called nyaaya prasthaanam
- logical analysis of upanishhad -s. Hence the use of tarka as
subservient in understanding Vedanta. Shankara gives the reason why
tarka is important in Vedanta. He contrasts the karma kaandam and
j~nana kaandam - in karma kaanDa tarka has got a limited role.
There procedures of rituals is more important - what should be done
rather than why should it be done - There the knowledge of a ritual
does not produce the results - performance of the ritual does. The
benefit is the result of accomplishment of a ritual in time or
time-bound. Hence Shankara's language - karma-kaandasya
saadhya-vishhayatvaat karma pradhaanam , j~naanam apradhaanam - since
it deals with something to be produced in future doing is important
and knowing has only an indirect role. Suppose if moksha is
something to be produced in future then like karma kaanDa, procedure
is important than knowledge - hence people say I have studied Vedanta
and now I have to practice or do more practice - some meditation or
something else. Shankara says this is the common misconception.
Vedanta does not deal with a future event - the result of a process
or procedure. We are not learning any procedure, any technique or
method of meditation through Vedanta or implement something after
Vedantic study. It is dealing with the fact of moksha - which is an
accomplished fact! - which one has to understand. The whole
Vedantic saadhana is only a process of understanding and there is
nothing to implement after understanding. With the understanding the
end is accomplished. Whatever the obstruction in understanding need
to be eliminated. One of the obstruction is the intellect itself in
the form of sa.nshayaH or doubt - Hence tarka or mananam is very
important - it is not an independent tarka but to remove the
intellectual
   obstacles created in assimilating the Vedantic teaching.
Hence tarka serves in the understanding the Vedantic teaching and in
assimilating that teaching as one's own. There is nothing to do
after understanding since the very understanding involves - I am
akarthaa and abhoktaa. - I have nothing to do as I am ever
liberated. - Hence Shankara says shruti is imporant, yukti is
important and finally anubhava , which involves assimilating the
knowledge as one's own, is important. anubhava is important only
because our samsaara is present only in the form of anubhava - I am
limited, I am small, the helplessness- the feeling of inadequacy, the
misery due to that feeling, the doubt about oneself, the doubt about
the teaching of Vedanta, etc. The moksha is freedom from these
sensations - the puurNatvam , the samatvam - it is not anubhava or
experience in the form of mystic experience that comes and goes, but
anubhava in the form of full freedom from all limitations. The
understanding is complete when the sa.nsaara bhaavana or vipariita
bhaavana goes away- Hence the benefit of this understanding is HERE
and NOW - That I am eternally free and never was bound for any
process of un-binding required. Hence inquiry is to be done using
shaastra sammata tarka .

With this Shankara's commentary on the second suutra is over. Next
the conclusion part.


Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://www.egroups.com/files/advaitin/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.
--
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:01:01 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:01:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Study of Scriptures
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


S. V. Subrahmanian <svsubrahmanian at Y...> wrote:

>I am paraphrasing a few of the sentences my teacher told me:
>
>"If one were to define Sri Sankara to be the one who wrote the brahmasUtra
>bhAshyam, then the other bhashyams on the principal upanishads and the
>gIta-bhAshyam are the ones that share similar literary style and
philosophical
>treatment. Any other work popularly attributed to Sri Sankara is quite
>debatable as there is difference in style of presentation and in the
precision
>of treatment of various topics. Even the authorship of vivekachUDAmaNi is
>suspect. It is quite possible that one of the later SankarAchAryas wrote
them
>but got attributed to Sri Sankara."

The late Holenarsipur Swami, Sri Saccidanandendra Sarasvati, has
written extensively about this issue. May I enquire whether your
Sanskrit teacher is from the Arsha Vidya Gurukulam of Sri Dayananda
Sarasvati?! The above stance is basically sound, but with one caveat.

One must be careful about literary stylistic arguments. It is easier
to imitate another original and creative author's style than to do
things on one's own. So, a text that may share stylistic similarity
may have been written by somebody else. On the other hand, the same
person may have changed his writing style over a lifetime of work.
We see this even with famous novelists and poets. These possibilities
should be carefully taken into account. Authorship problems with the
texts attributed to Sankaracharya should therefore be analyzed on a
case-by-case basis.

Personally, I would like to "define" the bRhadAraNyaka bhAshya as the
primary text, and compare other texts with it, instead of the sUtra
bhAshya. There are numerous textual reasons behind this. At the risk
of doing a little self-promotion, I have to share some information.
My discussion of this issue, with respect to the pancIkaraNa text,
will appear in the July 2001 issue of the journal, Philosophy East
and West. Our list-members, Panchapagesan, Ramakrishnan, Anand Hudli,
Vishal and Siddhartha Krishna, have helped me very much with this,
so I would like to acknowledge them here (also in the paper itself,
when it gets

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...> Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:06:07 -0500
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2001 18:06:07 -0500
Subject: Tutorial on computing planetary positions
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


A few days ago, there was some discussion on calendar and calendar
calculations. A calendar is traditionally called a panchAnga. What
exactly is a panchAnga? It means that five parameters are specified
on a daily basis. In practice, a lot of other information is also
mentioned in traditional panchAnga's, apart from the basic five
elements. These five are 1) tithi, 2) vAra, 3) naxatra, 4) yoga,
and 5) karaNa, as per the dictum "tithirvArashcha naxatraM yogaH
karaNaMeva cha".

PanchAnga calculations require that we know the celestial coordinates
(ecliptic longitudes) of the Sun and the Moon.

For example, the tithi (or lunar day) at any given point in time can
be found by:

 tithi = (((360 + M - S) mod 360) / 12) + 1

 where the celestial longitude of the moon is M and the
 celestial longitude of the Sun is S at the given time, the positions
 are in degrees, and the division is just integer division. If the tithi
 is between 1 and 15, then it means the moon is in the bright half
 (shukla pakSha); if it is between 16 and 30 then it is the dark half
 (krishna pakSha).

How do we find the ecliptic coordinates of the Sun and Moon? The answer
to this question depends on the accuracy to which one needs this data.
A quick, rough calculation, which might actually suffice in many cases,
is done by formulas that can even be handled by calculators. A nice
tutorial on calculating the positions of the sun, moon, and planets
from their orbital elements can be found at:

http://hotel04.ausys.se/pausch/comp/tutorial.html

Remember that the coordinates you get from these formulae are with
moving equinoxes as reference points. But in Hindu calendars, you need
to get the coordinates with fixed equinoxes as reference points. Such
a conversion of coordinates can be done by subtracting a term called
"AyanAMsha". Since the tithi calculation involves subtracting the
coordinate of the Sun from the Moon, this AyanAMsha can be ignored,
since it cancels out. But in computing planetary positions or naxatras,
for example, you will have to consider the AyanAMsha. This AyanAMsha is
the difference between the moving and fixed Vernal Equinoxes. There are,
unfortunately, different ways of calculating this yielding different
values. The one that is pretty much standard in India is the Lahiri
AyanAMsha which is about 23.8 degrees in Jan 2001. There is another
method mentioned by BV Raman, but this gives a different value.

For more precise calculations, it is best to use computations from
books on celestial mechanics. Years ago I led a team in Wipro Systems
in India to write software for panchanga, muhurta, astrology and much
more. The other members of the team were A Venkataramana, Sivakumar,
and Chandrakeerthy. I am not greatly interested in the subject anymore;
vedAnta has taken its place.

I had written briefly about tithi calculations earlier:
http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m4539.html
http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m4551.html

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...> Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:07:51 +0800
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 17:07:51 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [Fwd: UMS - 11]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


NamonnamaH.

"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

>
> Yes specificly it is an avyaya.

 It is not an avyaya in a case like this one.
 The suffix vat is used in three different senses :
 (1) To indicate possession like dhanavaan ;
 (2) Added to the past passive participle to turn
 it into past active participle, like gatavaan,
 dR^ishhtavaan, etc.
 (3) Added to nouns or adjectives to denote similarity or
 resemblance, as in vyomavat (like the sky), putravat
 (like a son), mR^itavat (as if dead), etc.
 It is avyaya (indeclinable) only when used in
 this sense. In the other two cases it is declinable

>
> I believe the noun in question is shantam which has an anstract sense --
> the quality of peace or tranquility. shantam + vat in the feminine gender
> should make shaantavati.

 That is an interesting line of thought. Please do let me know if you can
 recollect any instance of such usage?
 Shaanta ( tranquil) is the part participle of the root sham (4P) -
shaamyati.
 shaantiH is the abstract noun meaning tranquility.


> Also compare the first words of the dhyana
> shloka of Vishnu Bhagawan: shaantaakaaram bhujagashayanam... We don't say
> shaantikaaram
>

 Shaanta-aakaaram vishhNum vande - means I worship VishhNu whose
 countenance (aakaaraH) is peaceful (shaantaH).
 [shaantaH aakaaraH yasya saH shaantaakaaraH ; tam, shaantaakaram]

 We chant aum shhantiH, shaantiH, shaantiH, and not
 aum shaantam, shaantam,shaantam.


 matiH means mind, heart, intellect, etc. A word like shaantamatiH can then

 perhaps be formed to mean one whose mind is calm, undisturbed.
 But it will not be shaantamatii.


> --- Regards.

 vms.

>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...> Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:19:15 -0500
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 18:19:15 -0500
Subject: PanchAnga element - vAra
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


After tithi, the next panchAnga element is vAra (or vAsara). This is
easy to find if the date in question, ie the date for which panchAnga
elements (tithi, vAra, naxatra, yoga and karaNa) are required,
is close to the date when we set out compute these. For example, if
I am calculating the panchAnga for tomorrow Jan 26, 2001, I know that
the vAra parameter will be Friday (bhR^igu-vAsara).

Suppose I am calculating the panchAnga specifically for Feb.23, 2004.
What is the vAra? It is not straightforward to do this unless one has the
(Gregorian) calendar for 2004.

So we make use of the concept of Julian Day Numbers here. Each Gregorian
date in the month/day/year format can be converted into a single
number (as opposed to a combination of three numbers in month/day/year
format). This single number is the days that have passed since some
reference date. There are different ways of calculating this but as
long as we uniformly use the same method for all dates that we work
with, there is no confusion. The algorithm I use gives a Julian Day
Number of 2453059 for Feb 23, 2004. Once I know this number, I can
find the remainder (mod) with respect to 7 (seven days in a week), add
1 (because the reference date was a Monday), and make sure the result
is between 0 (Sunday) and Saturday (6). This gives me 1 as the result
which means that Feb 23, 2004 is going to be a Monday (0 = Sunday,
1 = Monday, etc.).

Here is a simple test program that endlessly loops asking for a
Gregorian date, computing the Julian Day Number and the weekday
for that date.


/* File: vAra.c
** Example showing how to compute vAra, one of the panchAnga elements.
*/


#include <stdio.h>

unsigned long date_to_julian(unsigned short,unsigned short,
 unsigned short);

char *weekdays[] = {"Sunday", "Monday", "Tuesday", "Wednesday",
 "Thursday", "Friday", "Saturday"};
main()
{
 unsigned short month,day,year;
 unsigned long julian_day_no;
 unsigned short week_day;

 while (1) {
 printf("Enter month day year: ");
 scanf("%hu%hu%hu",&month,&day,&year);
 julian_day_no = date_to_julian(month,day,year);
 printf("The julian day number is %lu\n",julian_day_no);
 week_day = ((julian_day_no) % 7 + 1) % 7;
 printf("weekday (vAra) = %s\n", weekdays[week_day]);
 }
}


/*Function to compute Julian Day Number from Gregorian calendar date
**This function is valid on or after Sept. 14, 1752 only
**because Gregorian calendar was started from that date.
**Parameters:
** month: month expressed as number between 1 and 12
** day: day number within the month (first parameter)
** year: Year number.
** Note: Use four digit year numbers, not two digit numbers
** For example, use 1967 and not 67.
** Returns: Julian Day Number as an unsigned long int
*/

unsigned long date_to_julian(unsigned short month, unsigned short day,
unsigned
 short year)
{
 unsigned long cent, year_a;
 if (month > 2)
 month -= 3;
 else {
 month += 9;
 year--;
 } /* else */
 cent = year / 100;
 year_a = year - 100*cent;
 return (((146097*cent)>>2) + ((1461*year_a)>>2) +
 (153*month + 2)/5 + day + 1721119);
}

Sample run of the program:

$ vAra
Enter month day year: 2 23 2004
The julian day number is 2453059
weekday (vAra) = Monday
Enter month day

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...> Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:46:51 -0500
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 21:46:51 -0500
Subject: Tele-lecture announcement
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


Dear list-members,

You might remember the following announcement I had made on 10 Jan 2001,
regarding a tele-lecture by Dr. N. S. Anantarangacharya from India.

lists.advaita-vedanta.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0101b&L=advaita-l&F=lf&S=&P=1898

The talk was a very clearly delivered introduction, drawing in large
part from Sankaracharya's gItA commentary and the introduction to the
brahmasUtra commentary. The second lecture in this series is announced
below. I would encourage people to dial in and listen to it. Sign-up
details are similar to those in the first lecture. More information is
availabl at http://www.ramanuja.org/svss/nsa.html, or by writing to the
email addresses below.

Vidyasankar

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

 Telephone Lecture Announcement
 ``Fundamentals of Spiritual Paths in Vedanta,
 Part 2''
 by
 Vedanta Vidvan Dr. N.S. Anantha Rangacharya
 Telephone Discourse in English
 January 28, 2001 (Sunday night US time)
 6pm Pacific / 9pm Eastern
 (2am GMT / 7:30 am IST)

 Contact: nsa at r...
 OR Krishna Kalale (kkalale1 at s...)
 Nagu Satyan (satyan at w...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...> Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:18:32 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 23:18:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Malolan Cadambi
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Bhaagavatas,

(I was asked to introduce myself to this esteemed forum)

To start with, My name is Malolan R Cadambi. Malolan is a sanskrit
name of Lord Lakshmi Narasimha. 'Ma' in sankrit means Maha Lakshmi
and 'lola' means beloved. 'Malola' means maha lakshmi's beloved who
is none by Sriman Naarayana/Lakshmi Narasimha

I belong to the lineage of Kidambi Appullar (Kidambi is the tamil
version of Cadambi/Kadambi/Kallambi --> all mean the same). Kidambi
Appular was the disciple of Sri Ramanujacharyar and the maternal
uncle of Sri Vedanta Desikar.

I highly interested in studying Vedanta in General and Visisthadvaita
Vedanta in Particular. I am quite well versed in the basics (although
my knowledge is nill compared to bhagavataas in this forum), and I
scored the 3rd highest marks in Sanskrit (All Karnataka for the 10th
Standard SSC Examinations 1998). I scored 121/125

I am well versed in Kannada (Since I lived in Bangalore till I moved
to Ames,IA to pursue B.S in Electrical Engineering at Iowa State
University), and can speak Tamil also.

I would like to get in touch with members in Ames,IA sometime soon.
Please feel free to call me at (515)2681519

Thanks and Best Regards,

Malolan Cadambi

"Jayatu Jayatu DevO Devaki

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...> Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:14:12 -0800 (PST)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 12:14:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


I posted this on 25th January. For some reason, it did not appear on
the list. I am reposting it. If you have received a copy already, I
apologize for the error.

Ravi


AUM mahAgaNapataye namaH
AUM shrI sha.nkArAcharyavaryAya namaH
AUM namo bhagavate vAsudevAya


ma~NgaLa shloka-s (continued)
==================



sahasramUrteH purushottamasya sahasranetrAnanapAdabAhoH
sahasranAmnAM stavanaM prashastaM niruchyate janmajarAdishAntyai || 3
||


The excellent stotram containing the thousand names of puruShottama
who has countless forms, eyes, faces, feet and shoulders is explained
to overcome the torments caused by the defects of samsara like birth,
growth, modification old age, and death.

- sahasra is not specifically thousand here but implies countless.
Refer to puruSha sUkta in this context.

- puruShottama is the supreme puruSha. That is the one who transcends
the xara and axara puruSha. xara denotes the bodies etc, possesses by
jIva-s. axara is the kUTastha or mAyA which is the upAdhi of Ishvara.
Refer to gIta verses 15-16 to 15-18, for details. This name also comes
in the sahasranAma, and we will take a look at it at name 24. Also
shankara explains in gIta bhAShya why mAyA or kUTastha is called axara.


-janma jarAdi is the defects like janma ( birth), jara (old age). All
perishable things suffer from defects like birth, growth, modification,
aging, and death. Chanting/contemplating on this stavam helps to
overcome this. How? By making the mind pure and leading to the
knowledge of realization which destroys the mis-identifaction we have,
that is thinking we are bodies, etc. Note that bhagavan shrI shankara
explains a lot of vedAnta through commentaries like this and trishati
bhAshya, which can directly lead us to realization (if one is
adequately prepared).

Your comments and corrections are welcome.

(Sanskrit text of shankara bhAShyam provided by shrImati Savithri Devaraj)

=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/

>From vaidya_sundaram at i... Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:21:35 -0600
Subject: New member Introduction: Gregg Bell
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 14:21:35 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 01/28/01 02:19 PM -----

 "Bell, Gregg" RE: Welcome and Request for more info.
 <jbell3 at c...
 a.edu>

 01/26/01
 08:28 AM


Thanks for providing the list. I am Gregg Bell. My interest in Vedanta has
arisen from my interest in Raja Yoga. To date, most of my reading has been
from the Himalayan Institute (Swami Rama, et al.) I also attended a
week-long yoga retreat with the Sivanada organization, but the Vedanta
emphasis was very light there. I don't want to bore you with more than you
want to know, but please contact me by email or phone if you need more
info.

Gregg Bell
jbell3 at c...

>From kartik at K... Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:36:34 GMT
Subject: OM HELP OM
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 21:36:34 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
Blessed Atman,
The Divine Life Society branch in Gujrat is working
actively to alleviate the sufferings of the prople affected
by the earthquake, which measured 7.9 on the Richter scale.
Sri Swami Adhyatmanandaji Maharaj is ALREADY THERE and is
organizing the relief effort.
Please pray for the departed souls and for comfort to the
bereaved families. YOU CAN HELP NOW!! TO ALLEVIATE THE
SUFFERINGS OF THE VICTIMS.
Donations for the relief effort ARE TAX DEDUCTABLE.
In United States, tax deductible donations can be drawn to:
Spiritual Life Foundation.
Please enter in the remark that donation is for
the "Gujarat Earthquake Relief Effort". The fund will be
IMMEDIATELY transferred to the Gujarat Divya Jivan Sangh
for use to provide relief to the affected victims.
The donation may be mailed to:
Spiritual Life Foundation
For Gujarat Earthquake Relief Effort
807 Wildwood Court
Oak Brook, IL 60523

Blessed Souls present in India may also mail in India to:
Gujarat Divya Jivan Sangh
For Gujarat Earthquake Relief Effort
Sivananda Marg, Jodhpur Tekri
Ahmedabad, 380 015, INDIA

Please feel free to contact us if you have any questions.
Please actively help in this relief effort. This service to
the unfortunate victims is Service to God. Please forward
this appeal to your friends.

Pranam
OM


---------------------------------------------
Get FREE E-Mail at Y...
http://www.valuemail.net

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...> Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:55:58 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 12:55:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: ADMIN: New Administrator: shrI Vidyasankar Sundaresan
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>



--- "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...> wrote:
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 10:55:00 -0800
> Reply-to: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
> <ADVAITA-L at b...>
> From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...>
> Subject: ADMIN: New Administrator: shrI Vidyasankar Sundaresan
> To: ADVAITA-L at L...
> 
> It is my great pleasure to announce that shrI Vidyasankar Sundaresan
> has kindly agreed to join the team of list adminstrators. I thank him
> sincerely for his help.
> 
> 
> Now the main admin team of Advaita-l will be
> 
> 1) Jaldhar Vyas (jaldhar at b...)
> 2) Vaidya Sundaram (Vaidya_Sundaram at i...)
> 3) Vidyasankar Sundaresan (vsundaresan at h...)
> 
> (arranged alphabetically by their first name)
> 
> Backup administrator:
> 
> 4) Ravi Mayavaram (msr at c...)
> 
> I will be helping the main list-adminstrators when they need me.
> 
> For now, I have the task of setting this Egroups stuff straight.
> 
> Please direct all your queries to listmaster at a...
> 
> With respects
> 
> Ravi
> 
> for the list administrators
> 
> 
> 
> =====
> ambaaL daasan
> 
> Ravi
> 
> sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI
> 
> http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org
> 
> __________________________________________________
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>From Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...> Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:42:33 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 13:42:33 -0600
Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>
Sender: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>
Subject: UMS -10
From: Ravi Mayavaram <msr at c...>


namaH shivaabhyaa.n jaTilandharabhyaam.h
 jaraamR^itibhyaa.n cha vivarjitaabhyaam.h |
janaardanaabjodbhavapuujitaabhyaam.h
 namo namaH sha~Nkarapaarvatiibhyaam.h || 10||

Prostrations to the divine couple shrI shivA and Lord shiva, who bear a
jaTa (knotted hair), who are devoid of imperfections like old age and
death (by this other things like birth, growth, and change are also
implied), who are adored by Lord vishhNu and Lord brahma, to that
shiva-parvati I bow again and again.

-kanchi paramAcharya in one of the talks remarks that by saying namaH
twice, countless or infinite times is implied. When we say namo namaH
or namaste namaste, we imply that we are doing this again and again,
many many times.

-the name janArdana occurs in vishhNu sahasranAma. For this name shrI
shankara gives two interpretations:

a) One who destroys those who are wicked - janAn - durjanAn, ardayati
- hinasti (destroys).

b) ard also means to beg, to ask - gatau yAcane ca. janaih ardyate -
yAcyate - One who is approached by His devotees for whatever they want.

refer to
http://people.we.mediaone.net/surfings/sahasra/sloka14.html

- abja means lotus, that is born in water (ap + ja). The name
abjodbhava refers to lord brahma.

- names of lalita sahasranAm celebrates ambaaL as vayovasthA vivarjitA
and sarvAvasthA vivarjitA. Because they are devoid of these
imperfections they are able to bestow that on their devotees as
mentioned by jarA dhvAnta ravi prabhA, janma mR^ityu jarA tapta jana
vishrAnti dAyinI, bhava rogaghnI,

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...> Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:27:01 -0500
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2001 21:27:01 -0500
Subject: advaita-siddhi 18 - Objections by opponent
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


In this part, we will study the objections raised by the
opponent against the definition of mithyAtva as being
sublated by GYAna.

 advaita-siddhi text
 --------------------
GYAnanivartyatvaM vA mithyAtvam.h |
nanu - uttaraGYAnanivartye pUrvaGYAne ativyAptiH,
mudgarapAtAdinivartye cha ghaTAdAv-avyAptiH,
GYAnatvena GYAnanivartyatva-vivaxAyAmapyayaM doShaH, adhiShThAna-
sAXAtkAratvena nivartye shuktirajatAdau cha GYAnatvena
GYAnanivartyatva-abhAvAt.h sAdhyavikalatA, GYAnatvavyApya-
dharmeNa GYAnanivartyatva-vivaxAyAM GYAnatvavyApyena smR^iti-
tvena GYAnanivartye saMskAre ativyAptiH -

Translation
-----------

Definition: Alternatively, unreality is the property of being
sublated by knowledge or cognition.
Objection by oppponent: This definition of mithyAtva, ie.
GYAnanivartyatvaM vA mithyAtvam, is too wide (ativyApti) in the
case of a cognition's being sublated by a subsequent cognition.
And in the case of a pot's being destroyed by stroke of a hammer,
the definition would be too narrow (avyApti). If the intention is
that unreality consists in being sublated by cognition as cognition,
(GYAnatvena GYAnanivartyatva)
even then there is the same defect, ie. of being too narrow.
Further, in the case of the illusion of silver in nacre, the
sublation of the illusory silver is due to the direct realization
of the substratum, ie. the nacre, (adhiShThAna-sAxAtkAra), and there is
no sublation due to cognition as cognition, which leads to the defect
of sAdhyavikalatA, ie. the definition is defective. If the definition
means that unreality is what is sublated by a property concomitant
with the property of being a cognition (GYAnatva-vyApya-dharma),
in the case of a memory (smR^iti) that sublates a mental impression
(saMskAra), the definition is too wide.

As BrahmAnanda's GauDabrahmAnandI clarifies, this third definition
is based on the shruti itself.

 'vidvAnnAmarUpAdvimukta' ityAdishrutyarthe vivadamAnaM prati
 sAdhyAntaramAha - GYAnanivartyatvaM veti |

 A different sAdhya (thing to be proved) is (now) stated, as
 per the interpretation of the shruti "The knower of Brahman is
 free from names and forms.

Let us now examine the objection of the opponent point by
point.

1) Definition is too wide
-------------------------
First of all, he says that the definition has the defect of
being too wide (ativyApti). How? In the case of a cognition
being replaced by a subsequent cognition, the first cognition
though "out of focus" right now is certainly not false. Suppose,
I see the sun rising in the East and next I see a cow. At that
moment when I am cognizing the cow, the cognition of the sun is
in the background or out of focus, so to speak, being displaced
by the cognition of the cow. Does it mean my cognition of the sun
is false. No. The definition is too wide because it seems to apply
to this case where a cognition is displaced or sublated in some
sense by a subsequent cognition.

2) Definition is too narrow
-----------------------------
Next, the opponent says that in the case of a pot being destroyed
by stroke of a hammer, thereby driving the pot into nonexistence,
the definition is too narrow. The advaitin claims that things such
as a pot are sublated by GYAna alone. Clearly, the opponent says,
the pot is not existent any more after being destroyed. So it should
be sublated. But what destroys or sublates the pot is not GYAna, but
something as simple as the stroke of a hammer! Actually, I
suspect that the dvaitin seems to be making fun of the advaitin
here - "You cannot make things such as a pot vanish by means
of what you call GYAna. If you want to make the pot vanish,
why don't you smash it with a hammer!"

Suppose a definition of a characteristic, say M, can be
expressed logically as M(X) <-> GN(X), which means X has
characteristic M if and only if X has characteristic GN.
Now, if we can find some Y such that Y has GN but not M,
then the definition is too wide and suffers from the defect
termed in nyAya as "ativyApti". In the case of a cognition C
which is sublated by another subsequent cognition, C', C has
the characteristic GN, GYAnanivartyatva, but not M, mithyAtva.
The definition here is too wide.

On the other hand, if we can find a Y such that Y has characteristic
M but not GN, then the definition is too narrow, a defect called
"avyApti". In the case of a pot, P, it is destroyed by a
stroke of a hammer and thereby has characteristic M, mithyAtva,
but not characteristic GN. It is not destroyed by any GYAna.
So the definition is too narrow in this case.

3) What if GYAnanivartyatva means GYAnatvena GYananivartyatva
--------------------------------------------------------------
The opponent now seems to anticipate a move by the advaitin
to silence the charge of ativyApti. Suppose the advaitin
says "By GYAnanivartyatva, we really mean that the cognition
(GYAna) that sublates what is mithyA has to be considered
as a cognition acting as a cognition, not anything else."

BrahmAnanda clarifies this "anticipated position" of
the advaitin in the language of navya-nyAya:

GYAnatvena GYananivartyatveti | GYAnatva-avachchhinna-
kAraNatApratiyogika-kAryatAvan-nAsha-pratiyogitvetyarthaH |

By "GYAnatvena GYAnanivartyatva" is meant the characteristic
of being the counterpositive (pratiyogin) of the destruction
which has an effect-ness, where the effect-ness is related
to a cause-ness delimited (determined) by cognition-ness.

The gist is that what determines the cause of destruction
of something unreal is the GYAna acting as a GYAna, ie. the
characteristic GYAnatva.

Now, suppose the anticipated position holds that cognition
of the nature of a vR^itti (a mental modification) is a quality
(dharma) of the mind (manas). The VedAnta-paribhAShA
says: "vR^itti-rUpa-GYAnasya manordharmatve cha" and cites
shruti as support for this position. Even in the nyAya system,
cognition is said to be a property (guNa) of the self.
(GYAnAdhikaraNam-AtmA - tarkasaMgraha of annaMbhaTTa). If cognition
is a quality of the mind (or self), any cognition that displaces a
previous cognition does so not in its capacity as a cognition but
in its capacity as a quality of the mind. So what happens
in this case is that one quality of the mind sublates another
quality of the self. Therefore, the definition of mithyAtva
is free from the defect of being too wide, simply because
the example of one cognition's being sublated by a subsequent
one is no longer relevant.

4) The charge of avyApti still holds
-------------------------------------
The opponent now says that although the advaitin has freed his
definition from this defect of being too wide, the other defect
of being too narrow still applies. The GYAnatvena GYAnanivartya-
tva clarification still does nothing to remove the defect in
the case of the stroke of the hammer which destroys the pot.

5) The definition is flawed
---------------------------
Further, there is another problem with the "GYAnatvena
GYAnanivartyatva" definition. In the case of the illusion
of silver in nacre (shukti-rajata), the cause of the destruction
of the illusion is not just any cognition of nacre, rather it
is the cognition of that nacre which is the substratum of the
illusory silver. While a person mistakes a rope for a snake
in the dark, it is not sufficient to end his illusion by
holding some other rope in front of him! What does end the
illusion is his perceiving the rope which he mistook for
a snake. In such cases of illusion, the destruction of the
illusion is not by a cognition acting in its capacity as a
cognition. However, the illusory thing is admitted to be
mithyA. So even though mithyAtva is present, GYAnanivartyatva
is absent in the illusory thing. This gives rise to the defect
of sAdhya-vikalatA, ie. the definition is defective because
we see that mithyAtva is really not defined as GYAnanivartyatva
but as "adhiShThAna-sAxAtkAratva", which makes the advaitin's
attempt to prove the GYAnanivartyatva version futile!

6) What if a sub-class of GYAna is intended
--------------------------------------------
The opponent now anticipates another move by the advaitin.
What if GYAnanivartyatva is taken to mean "GYAnatvavyApya-
dharmeNa GYAnanivartyatva", ie. what is illusory is sublated
by a sub-class of GYAna, not just GYAna in general. To understand
this definition, remember that GYanatva is a property. A property,
say P, that is concomitant with GYAnatva, say G, is a property
such that whenever P is present, G is also present. In other words,
P implies G. The property P is said to be GYAnatva-vyApya or
"pervaded by GYAnatva." So the anticipated position is that
what
   is illusory (mithyA) is sublated by a cognition of the
type P.

7) Still the definition is too wide
----------------------------------------

There is still a problem with the definition, says the opponent.
Consider smR^iti or memory which is a sub-class of GYAna, ie.
a specific kind of GYAna. The tarkasaMgraha of annaMbhaTTa
defines smR^iti as "saMskAramAtrajanyaM GYAnaM smR^itiH", memory
or recollection is cognition caused by reminiscent impression
alone. So it is clear that recollections are a sub-class or
a specific kind of cognition. The opponent, however, contends
that whenever a recollection occurs, the corresponding
reminiscent impression (saMskAra) that caused it gets
destroyed. In this case, the saMskAra, though destroyed by the
smR^iti is not considered false. So, once again, we have a
case where the definition of mithyAtva is too wide.

This last objection by the opponent is quite shaky at the
outset. First of all, even the naiyAyikas are divided regarding
whether the saMskAra gets destroyed by the smR^iti that it gives
rise to. The older nyAya-vaisheShika school holds that the
saMskAra gets destroyed by the smR^iti but logicians of the
newer navya-nyAya school tend to side with the advaitins in
rejecting this theory. The VedAnta-paribhAShA says: na hi smR^iteH
saMskAranAshakatva niyamaH, smR^itidhArA-darshanAt.h -
there is no rule that recollection destroys saMskAra because
a flow of recollection is observed. Therefore, the very premise
of the objection is questionable.

But still, the opponent might persist in challenging the advaita
position that smR^iti does not destroy saMskAra. As we shall
see, MadhusUdana's reply makes the last objection irrelevant
even if this advaita position regarding smR^iti is not
admitted.

MadhusUdana begins his reply thus (as usual):

 iti chenna |

 If this is what you contend, we say no (your objections are not


>From " Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...> Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:00:54 -0000
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:00:54 -0000
Subject: Fwd: More info on EkadaSis
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: " Ravi Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


>From Advaitin:

http://www.egroups.com/message/advaitin/7746

--- In advaitin at egroups.com, "Madhava K. Turumella" <madhava at m...>
wrote:
Poojya Sadanandaji,

Harih Om! Thank you for the information on Vishnu sahasranama and its
significance in chanting especially on Bhishma Ekadashi day. With
your kind
permission I would like to share with our Advaitin members some more
information on Ekadashis and their significance.

====
(Please feel free to comment or correct. I have taken this notes long
back!
Most of the information is taken from Magha Purana and Vishnu Purana).

Hindus traditionally observer total 24 ekAdashis (12x2). Ekadashi is
the
11th day after the no moon (bahuLa) and full moon (Suddha) days.
Ekadashi
arrives twice in a month. Please find below the significance of all
the
Ekadashi's in order:

IN THE MONTH OF ASHADHA:

(1) AshAdha suddha EkAdaSi: This is called as "toli Ekadashi" (First
Ekadashi), also called as "SayanikAdashi". Lord Vishnu goes to sleep
on
this day, that is why this is called as "SayanikAdashi". Hindu
Sanyasis,
Swamis and people who have renounced desires start observing the
famous
"cAturmAsya" (4 months) on this EkAdashi day.
Significance: (Ref: Magha purana) Observing this Ekadashi is very good
for
those who are suffering from chronic ailments. Who ever observes this
Ekadashi for life long, from the 18th year onwards, then they will
never
suffer from Ailments, never fall sick.

(2) Ashadha Bahula EkAdaSi: Also called as "kAmayikAdashi".
Significance: Those who observe this Ekadashi, will fulfill their
desires,
how ever great they may, which are not contrary to Dharma.

IN THE MONTH OF SRAVANA:

(3) Sravana Suddha EkAdaSi: Also called as "PutraikAdashi".
Significance: Those who do not have children will get children. Those
who
observe this Ekadasi for 1 time will get male children. Those who
observe
for 2 times will get a girl. (It seems it is very difficult to give
birth to
girls than boys!)

(4) Sravana Bahula EkAdaSi: Also called as "AjaikAdashi"
Significance: All obstacles are removed from the path. Especially
useful
for those who are facing problems in their respective fields like
business,
employment.


IN THE MONTH OF BHADRAPADA:

(5) bhAdrapada Suddha EkAdaSi: Also called as "parivartanayikAdaSi".
Lord
Vishnu, who slept on SayanaikAdashi, turns from left side to right
side in
the sleep. Lord Vishu goes to sleep, resting his head on his
left-hand. And
on this day, he rests his head on his right hand.
Significance: Those who observe this can rejuvenate any work that has
been
stopped by unknown forces.

(6) bhAdrapada BahuLa EkAdaSi: Also called as "indraikAdaSi".
Significance: Those who observe this will become equal to Indra, and
command
the heavens.


IN THE MONTH OF ASVAYUJA:

(7) ASvayuja Suddha EkAdaSi: Also called as "MahajjayikAdaSi". This
arrives immediately after the "Vijaya daSami".
Significance: Those who observe this will gain victory in any war,
endeavor.


(8) ASvayuja bahuLa EkAdaSi: Also called as "RamaikAdaSi".
Significance: Brilliance is achieved! Those who observe this will
reach the
heights of their career. They get promoted quite quick and receive
the
appreciations from their superiors.


IN THE MONTH OF KARTIKA:

(9) kARTIKA Suddha EkadaSi: Also called as "UtthAnaikAdaSi". Lord
Vishnu
wakes up from his sleep, after 4 months, on this day, that is why this
is
called as "utthAnaikADaSi". Holy men conclude their cAturmAsya on
this day.
Significance: Those who either donate money to the poor; those who do
puja,
japa and observe other rituals will gain infinite wisdom.

(10) kArtika bahuLa EkAdaSi: Also called as "utpatyaikAdaSi". Lord
Vishnu
has created the "goddess of EkadaSi" on this day, and hence this day
is
called "utpatyaikAdaSi".
Significance: Those who observe this will gain penance, which one can
not
accumulate in a lifetime!


IN THE MONTH OF MARGASIRA:

(11) mArgaSira Suddha EkAdaSi: Called as "uttamaikAdaSi", and also as
"dhRUvaikAdaSi".
Significance: Those who are not having peace of mind. Those who lost
control on their life, who are feeling lost should observe this. This
will
make them steadfast, and brings settlement to life.

(12) mArgaSira bahuLa EkAdaSi: Called as "safalikAdaSi", and also as
"anoohyaphalaikAdaSi".
Significance: Those who observe this are bound to be surprised with
happiness! They either win lottery, or they gain something which
makes them
very happy, which they can least expect in their life.

IN THE MONTH OF PUSHYA:

(13) pushya Suddha EkAdaSi: Called as "mOkshaikAdaSi", and also as
"vaikuntha EkAdaSi". The doors of Vaikuntha are opened this day. All
Gods
and Goddesses arrive to Vaikuntha in order have the darSan of Lord
Vishnu.
Significance: Those who observe this will gain vaikunTa, vishnu
sayujya
(merging in Lord Vishnu)

(14) pushya bahuLa EkAdaSi: Also called as "shaTilaikAdaSi". Very
significant for people who are struck with Lord Sani (Saturn)!
Significance: As per the astrology, every human undergoes a period of
Saturn
for 7 and half years. This period is said to be the most difficult
one to
pass through, there will be significant gains and losses also! So
those who
observe this EkadaSi will ease the pain conferred by Saturn.


IN THE MONTH OF MAGHA:

(15) mAgha Suddha EkAdaSi: Called as "jayaikAdaSi"

(16) mAgha bahuLa EkAdaSi: Called as "vijayaikAdaSi". Lord Vishnu
has got
two bodyguards who always stay at Vaikuntha's doorstep. Anybody who
wants
to visit Lord Vishnu should take their permission first.
Significance: It is said that Jaya and Vijaya have observed this
EkadaSi in
order to gain such a powerful position at VaikunTha.


IN THE MONTH OF PHALGUNA:

(17) phAlguNa sauddha EkAdaSi: Also called as "amalakaikAdaSi". Those
who
became wretched, who have indulged in sinful activities --- after
leading
such a life who repent and who want to get liberated can do so by
observing
this EkAdaSi. Lord Vishnu forgives their sins.

(18) phAlguNa bahuLa EkAdaSi: Called as "pApamOcanaikAdaSi" also
called as
"mukkOTi EkAdaSi".
Significance: It is advised to take bath in the ocean on this day, in
order
to wash off all the sins one has committed through out the year.


IN THE MONTH OF CAITRA:

(19) caitra Suddha EkAdaSi: Also called as "kAmadikAdaSi". Desires
get
fulfilled after observing this EkAdaSi.

(20) caitra bahuLa EkAdaSi: Also called as "varoodhinyaikAdaSi".
Significance: Those who have a burning desire to donate money, help
others
--- but can not do so because of the limitations they have in leading
their
life, can get all that fruits of good actions by observing this
EkAdaSi.
Lord Vishnu will see that they get the capacity to donate what they
want.

IN THE MONTH OF VAISAKHA:

(21) VaiSAkha Suddha EkAdaSi: Called as "mOhinayikAdaSi". Lord Vishnu
has
taken the shape of "Mohini" on this day, in order to kill the daemon
BhasmAsura .
Significance: Those who observe this will get the mesmerizing power.
They
will never have problems with their married life.

(22) vaiSakha bahuLa EkAdaSi: Called as "aparaikAdaSi".
Significance: Those who are living in far off lands, and those who can
not
go for pilgrimage to the holy sites, will gain all that Punya by
observing
this EkAdaSi.


IN THE MONTH OF JYESHTA:

(23) jyEshTa suddha EkAdaSi: Called as "nirjalaikAdaSi". One should
fast on
this day for continuous 24 hours with out even taking drinking water!
And
the next day --- before breaking their fast, they should take bath in
any
holy river and perform vishnu sahasranAmarcana.

(24) jyEshTa bahuLa EkAdaSi: Called as "yOginaikAdaSi". Especially
good for
women. Those who are suffering from unknown diseases can get cured by
observing this EkAdaSi.


I remain yours,
Madhava
--- End forwarded message

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...> Mon, 29 Jan 2001 07:23:49 -0800 (PST)
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 07:23:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: UMS - Final
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


-
>
> baddha-hRit means one who has made a firm resolve to do
> something.
> shiva and shivaa have committed themselves to protecting the three
> worlds.
Thanks for explaining baddha-hrit better.


> The three worlds may be - svarga (world of divine beings),
> martyaloka
> ( world of the humans), and paataala (world of the demons).

The three worlds are bhuH, bhuvaH and suvaH. They are often translated
as earth, middle region and heavens. Shankara refers to it in the same
way in 15-17 of gIta. At a human level, the three worlds stand for
sthUla (gross), sUxma (subtle), kAraNa (causal or ideational) bodies.


>
> Also, please check up the word jagat-trayii-rakshaNa.
> The word jagat is neuter gender, so the three worlds together would
> be
> jagat-trayam , not jagat-trayii. It is likely to be
> jagat-traya-rakshhaNa
>

It is trayii in the text I have (Volume 1 of collected works). Thanks
for your valuable comments.



=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
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>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 12:16:27 -0500
Subject: Fwd: ACTION ALERT: Killer Earthquake
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" ; format="flowed"
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From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


>X-Sender: ramn at a...
>From: Ram Narayanan <ramn at a...>
>To: Mr Sadananda <sada at a...>
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 11:59:36 -0500
>Subject: ACTION ALERT: Killer Earthquake
>
>
>Dear Mr Sadananda:
>
>According Rediff.com, the toll in the killer earthquake in Gujarat
>was on Monday
>reported to be somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000. This figure was likely to
>skyrocket, with survival chances appearing slim for nearly 100,000
>people feared
>to be trapped in debris at Bhuj, Anjar, Rapar, Bhachchau (all in
>Kutch district),
>Ahmedabad, Surendranagar, Morbi and other places in Gujarat.
>
>In the midst of this benumbing news, it's of some consolation to us
>Indian-Americans
>that our government here is standing by India in this hour of grave crisis.
>
>The Times of India reports that Secretary of State Colin Powell,
>Defense Secretary
>Donald Rumsfeld and National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice met
>in emergency
>session and agreed that India be provided with emergency relief that
>could include
>not only massive infusion of humanitarian assistance, but also other material
>aid like US military aircraft support to ferry equipment to the affected areas
>to help in search and rescue. The full text of the report is reproduced below.
>
>Meanwhile, for those who wish to make financial contributions, here are some
>of the organizations to which you may send your check:
>
>1) PRIME MINISTER'S NATIONAL RELIEF FUND: Send checks in dollars or
>rupees. Checks/Money
>Orders should be drawn in favor of "Prime Minister's National Relief Fund" and
>sent to any one of the following addresses:
>
>Prime Minister's National Relief Fund
>Embassy of India
>Attn: Head of Chancery
>2107 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
>Washington, DC 20008
>
>Wire Transfer Information:
>Prime Minister's National Relief Fund (Riggs Bank, Washington, DC)
>Account Number - 08115910
>Route Number - 054000030
>
>2) INDIA DEVELOPMENT AND RELIEF FUND (http://www.idrf.org). Donations to IDRF
>are tax exempted in the United States (Tax exempt ID: 52-1555563),
>and a receipt
>will be mailed to donors. Make checks payable to IDRF, and mail it
>to the following
>address:
>
>IDRF
>Attention: Nagaraj Patil
>1580 Hollenbeck Ave., Apt #4
>Sunnyvale, CA-94087 USA.
>
>In the memo, please mention "Gujarat Earthquake Relief."
>
>For more information contact: Vijay Shrivastava at (770) 394 5031
>
>3) VEDANTA SOCIETY OF WESTERN WASHINGTON
>2716 Broadway E. SEATTLE, WA 98102
>Phone: 206-323-1228
>
>Donations to the Vedanta Society are tax deductible in accordance with the US
>tax laws.
>
>4) The BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha will be collecting a fund for the Earthquake
>relief in India. All contributions are to be directed to:
>BAPS Earthquake Relief Fund
>P. O. Box 891449
>Dallas, TX 75389 - 1449
>
>The BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha has played a major role during times
>of calamities
>throughout India, for details on the progress of the 2001 earthquake
>relief work
>by BAPS, please feel free to visit :
>http://www.swaminarayan.org/news/2001/01/earthquake/index.htm
>
>Ritesh Desai
>(770)696-4798
>ritesh_desai at e...
>
>5) AMERICARES
>161 Cherry Street,
>New Canaan, CT 06840
>Contact: Elizabeth Griffin at 1-800-486-4357
>
>6) AMERICAN RED CROSS (http://www.redcross.org)
>Donors wishing to designate their gifts to India should make checks payable to
>the American Red Cross--International Response Fund and earmarked
>for India Earthquake
>Fund in the memo section of the check or an accompanying letter,
>should specify
>India Earthquake Fund.
>
>Donor can use a secure online credit card donation services or you
>may send your
>donation to the American Red Cross, P.O. Box 37243, Washington, D.C. 20013.
>
>The following agencies are accepting contributions for assistance in India as
>members of InterAction, a coalition of relief, development and
>refugee assistance
>agencies.
>
>a) Adventist Development and Relief Agency, 800-424-ADRA, http://www.adra.org
>
>b) Asian American Hotel Owners Association, Fred Schwartz, (404) 816 5759
>
>c) AAPI, Dr. Dayanand Nayak; (914) 732-3322
>
>d) American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, 711 Third Ave., New
>York 10017.
>(212) 885-0832. http://www.jdc.org
>
>e) B'nai B'rith International Disaster Relief Fund, 1640 Rhode
>Island Ave. N.W.,
>Washington 20036. (202) 857- 6533. http://www.bnaibrith.org
>
>f) CARE, 151 Ellis St. N.E., Atlanta 30303. (800) 521-CARE.
>http://www.care.org
>
>g) Catholic Relief Services, P.O. Box 17090, Baltimore 21203. (800) 736- 3467.
>http://www.catholicrelief.org
>
>h) Christian Children's Fund, P.O. Box 26484, Richmond 23261. (800)-SPONSOR.
>http://www.christianchildrensfund.org
>
>i) Christian Reformed World Relief Committee, 800-55-CRWRC,
>http://www.crwrc.org
>
>j) Church World Service, 475 Riverside Dr., New York 10115. (212)
>870-2167. http://www.churchworldservice.org
>
>k) Concern Worldwide, 212-557-8000, http://www.concernusa.org
>
>l) Direct Relief International, 27 South La Patera Lane, Santa Barbara, Calif.
>93117. (805) 964-4767. http://www.directrelief.org
>
>m) Doctors Without Borders, P.O. Box 2247, New York 10116. (888)
>392-0392. http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org
>
>n) Food for the Hungry, 7729 E. Greenway Rd., Scottsdale, Ariz. 85260. (800)
>2HUNGER. http://www.fh.org
>
>o) Gujarati Samaj of New York, 173-15 Horace Harding Expressway, Flushing, NY
>11365; Peter Bheddah, president, (718) 565-7765, Chandrakant Patel, secretary,
>(718) 762-9007.
>
>p) Gujarati Samaj of Washington DC, 9845 Lee Highway, Fairfax, VA 22030
>
>q) Jackson Heights Merchants Association, (718) 651-6969
>
>r) Leva Patidar Samaj of USA, 716 Sweetwater Circle, Old Hickory, TN
>37138; (615)
>391-4LPS.
>
>s) Lutheran World Relief, P.O. Box 17061, Baltimore 21298. (800)
>LWR-LWR2. http://www.lwr.org
>
>t) MAP International, 800-225-8550, http://ww.map.org
>
>u) Operation USA, 8320 Melrose Ave., Suite 200, Los Angles 90069.
>(800) 678-7255.
>http://www.opusa.org
>
>v) Oxfam America, India Earthquake Response, P.O. Box 1745, Boston,
>Mass. 02105
>1-800-776-9326 http://www.oxfamamerica.org
>
>w) Salvation Army World Service Office, 703-684-5528
>
>x) The Association for India’s Development (AID), (301) 422-7765
>
>v) United Methodist Committee on Relief, 475 Riverside Dr., New York
>10115. (800)
>554-8583. http://www.gbgm-umc.org
>
>z) US Fund for UNICEF, 333 E. 38th St., New York 10016. (800) FOR-KIDS.
>
>aa) United Way International, 701 N. Fairfax St., Alexandria, Va. 22314 (703)
>519-0092. http://www.uwint.org
>
>bb) World Concern, 800-755-5022, http://www.worldconcern.org
>
>cc) World Relief, 800-535-5433, http://www.worldrelief.org
>
>dd) World Vision, 888-56-CHILD, http://www.worldvision.org
>
>Lets contribute generously to relieve the pain and suffering in India.
>
>Ram Narayanan
>On-Line Resource for Indian-Americans
>http://www.indiatogether.org/us/lobby.htm
>
>http://www.timesofindia.com/today/29indu14.htm
>
>TIMES OF INDIA, JANUARY 29, 2001
>
>BUSH NATIONAL SECURITY TEAM PLEDGES HELP TO INDIA
>
>WASHINGTON: The Bush administration's national security team, in an emergency
>meeting at the highest-level, has unanimously decided to provide
>India with any
>assistance it may require to deal with the earthquake that struck Gujarat on
>Friday and has killed 20,000 people.
>
>Secretary of state Colin Powell, defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld
>and national
>security adviser Condoleezza Rice met in emergency session and
>agreed that India
>be provided with emergency relief that could include not only massive infusion
>of humanitarian assistance, but also other material aid like US
>military aircraft
>support to ferry equipment to the affected areas to help in search and rescue,
>administration and diplomatic sources said.
>
>These sources said the Indian government had acquiesced to American military
>helicopters and if necessary C-17 transport
   aircraft -- like the
>ones that accompanied
>former president Bill Clinton during his trip to South Asian in March -- to be
>used in this humanitarian effort and that US ambassador Richard
>Celeste who was
>in constant touch with defence minister George Fernandes had also conveyed to
>Washington the expeditious need for concrete-cutting equipment,
>water-purifiers
>and mobile hospitals.
>
>Meanwhile, the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID),
>the humanitarian
>arm of the American government, will up its assistance to India
>from the original $1 million announced on Saturday to $5 million and has made
>provisions to provide even more emergency supplies to India as the
>situation warrants.
>
>Len Rogers, acting administrator of USAID's Humanitarian Response Bureau said
>that "this is clearly a terrible earthquake," and that his office had
>set up a special task force to monitor the situation and work with
>Indian officials
>to determine the most critical needs and would send more aid and
>intensify its relief efforts as the days go by.
>
>A shipment of USAID supplies that includes plastic sheeting,
>blankets, water-containers,
>purification and distribution kits and generators have already
>arrived in India,
>envisaged to help at least 8,000-10,000 families, and so has a
>seven-member disaster
>response team that will quickly assess
>the situation and send its requirements to Washington for additional
>assistance
>and more supplies.
>
>USAID said it was also working with the non-governmental
>organization (NGO) CARE
>and had already begun distributing 100 metric tons of food aid on
>Saturday that
>was already in India when the earthquake struck and was making arrangements to
>rush several more hundred metric tons of food aid, which consists of
>ready-to-eat
>rations that could meet half of the energy requirements of about
>4,000 families
>for a period of up to 20 days.
>
>A spokesman for the Fairfax Country Search and Rescue team, which is
>considered
>one of the best in the world and works with sniffer dogs, said they
>stood ready
>to fly out to India as soon as New Delhi took it up on the offer they had made
>immediately after the disaster struck.
>
>Meanwhile, all the area temples were packed to capacity on Sunday
>with devotees
>and worshippers offering special prayers and setting up special
>committees to channel the spontaneous ontributions people were making to help
>in the relief efforts.
>
>Community organizations in the area had also set up special accounts and Web
>sites to channel the spontaneous outpouring of financial
>contributions and were
>working in concert with the Indian Embassy to expeditiously get
>these funds across
>so that they could be put into maximum use.
>
>The Washington Post, which continued to report on the earthquake and featured
>it prominently on page one for the second day running, carried a
>list of relief
>organizations and NGOs that were assisting in the relief efforts with details
>on how to contribute.
>
>Specialty organizations like the American Association of Physicians of Indian
>Origin (AAPI) also was mobilizing its members. Dr. Navin Shah, past president
>of AAPI and the chairman of the AAPI-Hinduja Hospitals collaborative venture
>on developing trauma units, said he had been in contact with Hinduja chairman
>S.P.Hinduja in New Delhi and that the Hinduja Hospital was
>dispatching immediately
>from Mumbai to Bhuj a team of doctors recently trained by
>AAPI-sponsored American
>trauma specialists.
>
>This US team is being led by Dr. P. Balasubramanium, a trauma surgeon at the
>University of California, Los Angeles. Balasubramanium, according to
>Shah, would
>be leaving Monday with a top-flight six-member mobile surgical unit to assist
>the medical units, both Indian and international, that were already
>on the ground
>in the acutely affected areas where emergency surgery
>was required. (India Abroad News Service)

--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From kartik at K...
Subject: HARI OM
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:08:28 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
Pranam
The Divine Life Society has a fully operational branch in
Ahemadabad. The Monks are already providing relief to the
victims in remote areas of Bhuj, Saurashtra and other
remote regions of Gujrat.
It has been my experience that two kinds of people are
competent to serve unabatedly in areas struck by Natural
Disasters, Monks and Military personnel.
Monks see God in everyone and serve without caring for
lack of basic amenities like water, food and shelter.
Military people do it under orders.
I am personally familiar with the work done by the Divine
Life Society in ORISSA SUPERCYCLONE and the Earthquake in
Tehri-Garhwal.
If anyone is looking for a GENUINE, way to help, this is it.
More details are available at:
http://www.divyajivan.org/gujarat_earthquake_relief_effort.h
tm
Pranam
OM


---------------------------------------------
Get FREE E-Mail at Y...
http://www.valuemail.net

>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Fwd: HPI January 27, 2001
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 18:26:46 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


Namaste,

The later part of this article talks about how some religious organizations
see this as an opportunity for mass convertions - Let us be prudent in our
choice of organizations to donate towards the earthquake relief.

Let us also pray that Parameshvara gives courage to the souls left behind in
Gujurat,
Thanks,
Savithri

>From: hpi.list at h... (Hindu Press International)
>Reply-To: NULL at h...
>To: subscribers:;
>Subject: HPI January 27, 2001
>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:23:37 -1000
>
>HINDU PRESS INTERNATIONAL
>
>A daily news summary for news media, educators, researchers, writers and
>religious leaders worldwide, courtesy of Hinduism Today magazine's
>editorial
>staff
>
>AHMEDABAD, INDIA, January 26, 2001: Bochasanwasi Shree Akshar Purushottam
>Swaminarayan Sanstha, BAPS, has its international headquarters in
>Ahmedabad.
>It has established massive earthquake relief work using scores of other
>BAPS
>centers in Gujarat, BAPS has outstanding experience in disaster relief, and
>is recommended by HPI as an excellent channel for donations to the relief
>effort, especially considering their huge presence in this area. USA: "BAPS
>Earthquake Relief Fund," P.O. Box 891449, Dallas, TX 75389-1449. India:
>"BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha" Swaminarayan Mandir, A/C Department Shahibaug
>Ahmedabad, 380004 Gujarat, INDIA. UK: "The SHM-Gujarat Earthquake Relief
>A/c" Shree Swaminarayan Mandir, 105 -119 Brentfield Road, Neasden, London
>NW10 8JP. Money can also be reliably contributed through the Prime
>Minister's National Relief Fund. USA: Embassy of India Attn: Head of
>Chancery, 2107 Massachusetts Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20008. India: Prime
>Minister's National Relief Fund, Prime Minister's Office South Block, New
>Delhi 110011 India. Hindus should be aware that Christians regard such
>disasters as opportunities for getting new converts. This message just
>arrived from "Gospel of Asia," a Christian missionary-sending organization
>based in Texas: "Please do remember our leaders and native missionaries as
>they seek to meet the physical and spiritual needs of these earthquake
>victims. We are particularly asking the Lord to use this tragedy for His
>glory, to soften hearts and open doors for the Gospel." See
>http://www.gfa.org/
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:50:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Fwd: HPI January 27, 2001
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


savitriji - thanks for pointing out - your comments are well taken.
One should donate through the organization that one is sure that it
reaches to those it is intended and that too the full amount.
Hari Om!
Sadananda

>Namaste,
>
>The later part of this article talks about how some religious organizations
>see this as an opportunity for mass convertions - Let us be prudent in our
>choice of organizations to donate towards the earthquake relief.
>
>Let us also pray that Parameshvara gives courage to the souls left behind in
>Gujurat,
>Thanks,
>Savithri
>
>>From: hpi.list at h... (Hindu Press International)
>>Reply-To: NULL at h...
>>To: subscribers:;
>>Subject: HPI January 27, 2001
>>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 17:23:37 -1000
>>
>>HINDU PRESS INTERNATIONAL
>>
>>A daily news summary for news media, educators, researchers, writers and
>>religious leaders worldwide, courtesy of Hinduism Today magazine's
>>editorial
>>staff
>>
>>AHMEDABAD, INDIA, January 26, 2001: Bochasanwasi Shree Akshar Purushottam
>>Swaminarayan Sanstha, BAPS, has its international headquarters in
>>Ahmedabad.
>>It has established massive earthquake relief work using scores of other
>>BAPS
>>centers in Gujarat, BAPS has outstanding experience in disaster relief, and
>>is recommended by HPI as an excellent channel for donations to the relief
>>effort, especially considering their huge presence in this area. USA: "BAPS
>>Earthquake Relief Fund," P.O. Box 891449, Dallas, TX 75389-1449. India:
>>"BAPS Swaminarayan Sanstha" Swaminarayan Mandir, A/C Department Shahibaug
>>Ahmedabad, 380004 Gujarat, INDIA. UK: "The SHM-Gujarat Earthquake Relief
>>A/c" Shree Swaminarayan Mandir, 105 -119 Brentfield Road, Neasden, London
>>NW10 8JP. Money can also be reliably contributed through the Prime
>>Minister's National Relief Fund. USA: Embassy of India Attn: Head of
>>Chancery, 2107 Massachusetts Avenue, NW Washington, DC 20008. India: Prime
>>Minister's National Relief Fund, Prime Minister's Office South Block, New
>>Delhi 110011 India. Hindus should be aware that Christians regard such
>>disasters as opportunities for getting new converts. This message just
>>arrived from "Gospel of Asia," a Christian missionary-sending organization
>>based in Texas: "Please do remember our leaders and native missionaries as
>>they seek to meet the physical and spiritual needs of these earthquake
>>victims. We are particularly asking the Lord to use this tragedy for His
>>glory, to soften hearts and open doors for the Gospel." See
>>http://www.gfa.org/
>>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:32:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: a Story from the earthquake
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


It has been a very trying weekend for us. As soon as we heard the news,
we began trying to reach as many friends and loved ones as we could. But
heavy damage has been done to the communications infrastructure and with
all the other anxious people trying to get through, it's been difficult.
In fact I'm home today so I can make a few calls. Luckily it seems my
family are ok. We're still a little worried about some of my wifes family
especially one cousin who lives in Bhuj which was the epicenter of the
quake.

One of my wifes uncles is the pujari at a mandir. He had just left there
after finishing the morning arati when the quake struck and was hit by
falling masonry and knocked unconscious. He was rushed to hospital and
made a full recovery. Today, first thing in the morning he was back at
the mandir and performing the arati. This is despite the fact maybe 60%
of the buildings in the neighborhood have fallen down and most of the rest
(including the mandir) will have to be demolished due to structural
weakness.

The message I understod from the story recounted above is that we are
afflicted by countless calamities, natural, man-made, and mental. Some of
them cause major disruption, some of them merely annoy. But a wise man
will not let himself be ruled by them. Instead he dedicates himself to
doing his duty with dispassion. It would have been easy for our hero to
find excuses to not go back. No one would have blamed him (aftershocks
are still continuing.) however instead of dwelling on what he couldn't do,
his thoughts were on what he could and should do.

Let us learn from this example. As much as we are scared, and worried,
and otherwise affected by these tragic events, let them not cause us to
deviate one inch from our Dharma.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:32:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: HPI January 27, 2001
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, K. Sadananda wrote:

> savitriji - thanks for pointing out - your comments are well taken.
> One should donate through the organization that one is sure that it
> reaches to those it is intended and that too the full amount.
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda

The Bochasanvasi Akshara Purushottam Sanstha (BAPS) is one of the largest
Vaishnava sects in Gujarat and in the forefront of relief efforts.
They're also very well-organized so you can be sure aid will actually get
to those who need it.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 15:00:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The role of a sannyasi (Was Re: HARI OM)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Sat, 29 Jan 101, Kartik Vashishta wrote:

> Monks see God in everyone and serve without caring for
> lack of basic amenities like water, food and shelter.

True. But in my opinion this trend of treating monks as social workers is
not good. It's just an imitation of Christian padres with no support in
our traditions. A sannyasis "job" is very simple -- to know Brahman.
That's it. There is nothing practical and nothing beneficial to society
in it. In fact, a sannyasi is an enemy of society. He regards all its
obligations as fetters entangling him further in maya.

A sannyasi who keeps sticking his nose in worldly affairs even if with the
most noble of intentions runs the risk of getting stuck once again in
samsara. Then what is the point of wearing kesari and keeping
brahmacharya etc.? At best he will become a hypocrite. at worst he'll
end up like these religious politicians that plague India today, ever
ready to comment on the fads of the day, and totally illiterate in the
shastras.

It is bad for the lay public too. The support of society is not something
which can be shunted of to "professionals" whether religious or secular.
It is the duty of every single one of us.

Yes monks will serve. Because their hearts are oceans of compassion. But
we grhasthas should endeavor not to put them in the position where they
have to set aside their mission for irrelevant things.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan <kartik at e...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 13:58:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan <kartik at e...>


On Mon, 29 Jan 2001, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:

[..]

> Let us learn from this example. As much as we are scared, and worried,
> and otherwise affected by these tragic events, let them not cause us to
> deviate one inch from our Dharma.
>

An inspiring story! Very difficult to be courageous during trying times.
I'm ashamed to say I've given in under much milder situations. It's good
to have satsang with such strong

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayvaram" <msr at c...>
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 16:29:45 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Our Fundamental Error
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayvaram" <msr at c...>


 From Dennis Waite" <dwaite at d...>

Dear Ravi,

I am currently posting a 'rewrite' of Sadananda's commentary on
Shankara'sadhyaasa bhaashhya from, and introduction to, the Brahmasuutra. I
have edited the material and removed most of the Sanskrit so as to make it
more accessible to those who do not know (and do not want to make the effort
to know) any Sanskrit.

There are 11 parts and I intend posting 2 per week to the Advaitin List (the
first went out on Sunday). Sada (who has checked the material and sanctioned
it for posting) suggested that you might want to post it to Advaita-L (I am
no longer a member of this list).

The first section follows. Perhaps you can let me know if you want me to
send the rest. If so, I will copy to you when I post to Advaitin (so as to
keep the two in step).

Regards,

Dennis

********************************************************************
ADHYAASA - Notes on Shankara's exmination of the nature of 'Error' in the
introduction to the Brahmasuutra.

These notes are essentially a rewording, omitting most of the Sanskrit, of
the notes provided by Kuntimaddi Sadananda on the Advaitin List and I
gratefully acknowledge his permission for this. In turn, he wishes that I
acknowledge his own indebtedness to H.H. Swami Paramaarthaananda of Madras,
himself a student of Swami Chinmayananda and Swami Dayananda. His lectures
form the basis of these notes.

The Brahmasuutra is the third of the so called 'Three pillars of Vedanta',
the first two being the upanishhad-s (shruti - the scriptures 'revealed' and
not 'authored' by anyone) and the Bhagavad Giitaa (smR^iti - the 'heard'
scriptures passed down by memory). The Brahmasuutra is a very terse and
logical examination of the essential teaching of the upanishhad-s, seeking
to show the nature of Brahman and the superiority of the philosophy of
Vedanta. It is usually studied with the help of a commentary or bhaashhya,
the best known being the one by Shankara.

It is in the nature of man, with his intellect, that he seeks to enquire
into the causes of observed phenomena. The six topics of enquiry for a
'student of life' relate to the individual, the world, the cause for these
two, suffering, liberation from this suffering and the means for attaining
such liberation. Any consistent explanation for all of these is deemed a
philosophy or darshana. There are 12 specific philosophies identified in
India. Six of these are called aastika and the other six naastika. Aastika
refers to those systems which accept the Vedas as a valid means for
acquiring knowledge. Conversely, the naastika philosophies do not recognise
the Vedas as valid or reliable sources of knowledge. These latter
philosophies prefer to rely upon direct perception and inference or
reasoning as the means for knowledge.

The first of the six naastika philosophies is materialism, said to originate
with the teacher of the Gods, BR^ihaspati. It is said that this was devised
in order to mislead the demons so that they could be destroyed. It
emphasises the sense pleasures as being the purpose of life and does not
accept such things as heaven and hell, the soul or Vedas. Modern science,
with its belief that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of matter, may come
close to this philosophy. Materialism only recognises direct perception as a
valid means of knowledge. This philosophy is not discussed in the
Brahmasuutra since it is not considered worthwhile.

The second naastika philosophy is Jainism. Some aspects of this are
discussed and refuted later. The remaining four cover the various aspects of
Buddhism. Buddha himself did not teach any real system of philosophy; he
only had various dialogues with his disciples. Hence Buddhism was not
initially well-developed. Later however it developed into four branches,
each of which is analysed and criticised in the Brahmasuutra.

Although all of the six aastika philosophies accept the Vedas as a valid
means of knowledge, three of them do not accept Brahman and four of them
given more importance to reasoning than to the Vedas. Only two give primary
importance to the Vedas. One of these however, considers that the first part
of the Vedas - the one concerned with ritualistic action - is more important
than the upanishhad-s. The second gives primary importance to the last
portion of the Vedas, and it is this that is the principal subject of the
Brahmasuutra-s.

A suutra literally means 'a thread'. It is a very concise statement
expressing the essential meaning of a given idea in a logical manner, free
from any defects. A simple translation is therefore not adequate on its own
and requires additional explanation in the form of a commentary or
bhaashhya. Because there exist possibilities for ambiguity, the various
commentaries have led to 10 different teachings each claiming that theirs
represents the intended meaning. The three most popular (in historical
sequence) are known as Advaita, VishishhTaadvaita and Dvaita,. The
commentary by Shankara is concerned with Advaita.

....................................end of Part

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 16:43:41
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


It is good to hear that your families are safe. In India, which we call as
'Punya Bhoomi', when these things happen, people suffer more as opposed to
the West. People in India adhere to Dharma more than anywhere else. Of
course, others may follow their own Dharma.

What is the role of Karma in this? Do Indians have a bad Prarabdha or
Sanchita?

Ravi


>From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: a Story from the earthquake
>Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2001 14:32:17 -0500
>
>It has been a very trying weekend for us. As soon as we heard the news,
>we began trying to reach as many friends and loved ones as we could. But
>heavy damage has been done to the communications infrastructure and with
>all the other anxious people trying to get through, it's been difficult.
>In fact I'm home today so I can make a few calls. Luckily it seems my
>family are ok. We're still a little worried about some of my wifes family
>especially one cousin who lives in Bhuj which was the epicenter of the
>quake.
>
>One of my wifes uncles is the pujari at a mandir. He had just left there
>after finishing the morning arati when the quake struck and was hit by
>falling masonry and knocked unconscious. He was rushed to hospital and
>made a full recovery. Today, first thing in the morning he was back at
>the mandir and performing the arati. This is despite the fact maybe 60%
>of the buildings in the neighborhood have fallen down and most of the rest
>(including the mandir) will have to be demolished due to structural
>weakness.
>
>The message I understod from the story recounted above is that we are
>afflicted by countless calamities, natural, man-made, and mental. Some of
>them cause major disruption, some of them merely annoy. But a wise man
>will not let himself be ruled by them. Instead he dedicates himself to
>doing his duty with dispassion. It would have been easy for our hero to
>find excuses to not go back. No one would have blamed him (aftershocks
>are still continuing.) however instead of dwelling on what he couldn't do,
>his thoughts were on what he could and should do.
>
>Let us learn from this example. As much as we are scared, and worried,
>and otherwise affected by these tragic events, let them not cause us to
>deviate one inch from our Dharma.
>
>--
>Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 12:10:51 -0500
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


>
>What is the role of Karma in this? Do Indians have a bad Prarabdha or
>Sanchita?
>
>Ravi

Ravi - some of these aspects were discussed in the last but one post
related to Shankara's description of Sarvaj~ntvam and sarvashaktitvam
of Iswara. To call as bad or good prarabda depends on ones
perspective. The one who feels at loss and sad obviously feels that
it is his bad prarabda. Obviously here we have individual as well as
samishhTi parabda involved. More than who passed away, the one who
are left behind or partially incapacitated feel the maximum loss.
Here death and destruction occurred not at the hands of individuals
as in Kurukshetra war, but by phenomenal forces where kartaa is only
Iswara. He does not act by his whims and fancies since he is the
Iswara and has no self motion to destroy anything. He strictly
follows the dharma and dharma is set by samishhTi which is sum total
of all individual prarabda. But it is also our dharma to come
forward to help since if we are in their position we expect others to
help us. This is where our purushhaartha comes which again sets our
and samishhTi future prarabda. More than that We are taking freely
and abudently from the nature and it becomes our duty to return it
back abundently when the nature, which is cumulative of all the
people in need, demands.
Hari Om
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New Member Introduction: Abhin Kumar
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 13:12:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 01/30/01 01:10 PM -----

 "a v" Introduction
 <prtzf at h...
 l.com>
 01/28/01
 09:28 PM


To: advaita-l Moderator

namaste,

My name is Abhin Kumar, from Kashmir. As most no doubt know, a form of
Advaitam--differing considerably from Sri Sankara's--was cultivated in
Kashmir. I hope to increase my understanding of both these varieties of
Advaitam by joining this l-serv.

My interests also extend to Purva Mimamsa [especially the Prabhakara
school], and here too I hope to learn more by joining the discussion on the

Uttara Mimamsa of Sri Sankara.

Abhin
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 17:22:42 -0500
Subject: sUryaM praNamAmyaham.h
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


taM suuryaM jagataaM naathaM jnaanavijnaanamokshhadaM
 mahaapaapaharaM devaM taM suuryaM praNamaamyaham.h ||

 I offer obeisance to that God Suurya, who is the lord of the worlds,
 who bestows (worldly) knowledge, (spiritual) knowledge, and mokshha,
 and who (also) destroys all sins.

There is an interesting article on the web on sUrya written in
Hindi. Please see:

http://hindi.sify.com/artsandculture/content/historical.asp

As the article says, citing the Padma purANa, sUrya is the directly
visible symbol of Brahman and is to be understood to be "brahmamaya."

Also, "sUryopAsanA ke liye makar sankrAnti ke din tathA saMpUrN
mAgh mAs kA visheSh mahattv hai", underscoring the importance of
worship of sUrya during makara sankranti and also during the
entire month of mAgha.

Tomorrow happens to be the 7th lunar day (saptamI) in the month of
mAgha popularly known as ratha-saptamI. This day is especially
important for the worship of sUrya, during which one should take
bath before sunrise (aruNodaya) and worship sUrya. It is better if
such worship is offered for the whole month of mAgha.

These are tragic days for us Indians. Let us also pray bhagavAn
sUrya to give us the moral strength to bear the national

>From Chandrasekaran Venkatraman <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 18:06:26 -0500
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Chandrasekaran Venkatraman <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear members,
 This is with reference to the questions raised about karma's
role in person's life, calamities etc.,
 It's said in advaita that "a Universal soul occupies individual
bodies and remains unaffected by the deeds of the bodies and matter.
This is likened to sun's reflection from multitude of mirrors or
on a water body".

Doubts:
1. When a body falls, the Universal soul withdraws its energy/consciousness
from the body. Why does it retain vasanas, karma etc., if it were to be
unsullied by the deeds of prakriti.
2. More than that this Universal soul being Iswara Himself (as per advaita)
how does He get entangled into karma.
3. When a calamity happens and it kills somebody or lots of people, whom is
Iswara punishing in the real sense? Is Iswara punishing?

 Briefly put, where does the concept of "individual karmas" fit in
a system of thought that presents the Universe as being pervaded by "one
and only one sentient being".

 Kindly clarify my doubts.

 Thanks and warm regards,


>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:59:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Jai Simman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Here is a brief introduction about myself.

My name is R. Jai Simman. I am 26 and reside in Singapore.
I am a Singaporean by birth. I am a teacher by profession teaching
English Language and History. I am very much interested in Vedic
Philosophy and Indology and wish to know more about Sripad Shankaracharya
and Advaita Vedanta. Please include me in your list.

Thanks and best regards,

Your ever well-wisher,
R. Jai

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:10:01 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E

 sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
 asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 janmaadi adhikaraNam 2
 suutra 1 : janmaadyasya yataH |


Now the conclusion of the Second suutra.

First the technical presentation of this adhikaraNam :
For this adhikaraNa

vishhayaH : The subject matter is brahma lakshaNam , the definition
of Brahman.

sa.nshayaH : The doubt - Since we are asked to inquire into Brahman,
who is Brahman or what is Brahman in order to begin the inquiry - Is
Brahman defined, if so, what is the definition? These are the doubts.

puurvapaksha : - There is no definition for Brahman and hence no
inquiry can be done. This is because a definition has to be such that
it has to be through a unique feature that identifies that object
from the rest of the objects in the world. Otherwise it cannot be a
valid definition. asaadhaaraNa dharmaH lakshaNam - Unique feature of
object forms the definition. Since Vedantin says Brahman is
featureless, puurvapakshii asks how featureless Brahman can have
unique feature to have a definition that distinguishes Him from
everything else. Upanishads in fact declare that Brahman is
undefinable. yato vaacho nivartante apraapya manasaa saha - na tatra
chakshur gachchhati na vaak gachchhati - Since scriptures themselves
declare that Brahman cannot be defined, puurvapakshii says brahman
lakshaNam naasti - there cannot a definition for Brahman.

siddhaanta: brahma lakshaNam asti - there is a definition for
Brahman. Even though Brahman is really featureless, we can define
Brahman through superimposed features, adhyasta dharma satvaat ,
through mithyaa features. It is just like defining our rope as the
substratum for our snake, even though the rope is snake-less.
Similarly through the superimposed jagat or the world, Brahman can be
defined as jagat kaaraNam, even though Brahman is beyond kaaraNa
-kaarya sambandha , cause-effect relationship. Hence lakshaNam asti
is the siddhaanta.

sa~Ngati : This concerns the connection between this and the previous
topic. The previous topic relates to the fact that one should inquire
into the Brahman. The connection between this and the previous topic
technically is called ' aakshepa sa~NgatiH '. It means the first
topic leads to an objection, which is answered in this second topic.
Since Brahman inquiry is required and without proving the existence
of the Brahman one cannot do such an inquiry and to prove the
existence we need - lakshaNa and pramaaNa . Hence to prove the
existence of Brahman the second suutra fulfils the lakshaNa
requirement.

That ends the technical part of the format.

Some additional important points will be considered now:

1. It was mentioned before that the suutra - janmaad yasya yataH
primarily refers to taTastha lakshaNam rather than swaruupa
lakshaNam. In the same upanishhad, where the statement - yato vaa
imaani bhuutani jaayante .... which forms the vishhaya vaakyam for
this suutra, there is also a statement that can provide the swaruupa
lakshaNam for Brahman - satyam j~naanam anantam brahman. A question
can be raised as to why Vyasacharya choose taTastha lakshaNa for the
definition of Brahman in this suutra rather than swaruupa lakshaNam
since both are available in the same upanishhad.

The answer lies in the fact that in the case of Brahman, it is easier
to understand Brahman initially through the taTastha lakshaNam than
swaruupa lakshaNam. The reason is that in the taTastha lakshaNam we
are using an external features which are easily available and
perceptible and which are known to every one. Thus one transcends
from the known to the unknown. When we use swaruupa lakshaNam ,
satyam j~naanam anantam , the very intrinsic feature of satyam (pure
existence) or j~naanam ( nirvisheshha chaitanyam , objectless
consciousness) is not easily perceptible or available or known to the
inquirer. It will be like defining one unknown thing using another
unknown. Hence Vyasacharya chose taTastha lakshaNam for Brahman.

2. The suutra 2 provides the definition of Brahman primarily as the
upaadaana kaaraNam or the material cause of the universe. In
upanishhads the Brahman is often said to be the material cause of the
universe. But at times we find maayaa or prakR^iti was presented as
the material cause of the universe. maayaa.n tu prakR^itim viddhi
maayinaa.n tu maheswaram - swetasvatara upanishhad - maaya is the
prakR^iti, which is the material cause. In the Mahanarayana Upanishad
there is a famous sloka (12-5) that says:

ajaam ekaa.n lohita shukla-kR^ishhNaaM bahvii.n prajaa.n janayantii
saruupaam.h |
ajo hyeko jushhaamaaNo.anusheto jahaatyenaa.n bhuktabhogaamajo.anyaH ||

This mantra is going to be elaborately analyzed later - for the time
being it will suffice to know that it describes maayaa (unborn
female) endowed with sattva , rajas and tamo guNa -s as the material
cause. It is associated with two types of jiiva -s =96 one, the
unrealized souls who are fascinated by her and are attached to her,
and two, the realized souls who, having enjoyed her, reject her by
getting detached from her. In Bhaagavat Giita (13-19) says:

prakR^itiM purusham chaiva viddhyanaadii ubhaavapi |
vikaaraa.nshcha guNaa.nshchaiva viddhi prakR^itisambhavaan.h ||

prakR^iti and purushha are the two beginningless principles and the
creation has come out of prakR^iti.
Thus sometimes the upanishhads say Brahman is the material cause and
sometimes the prakR^iti as the material cause. Now of the two which
is really the material cause. There is a big difference if one says
Brahman or purushha is the material cause then the chetana vastu or
conscious entity is pointed out as the cause. But if prakR^iti is
the cause then it is achetana vastu or inert entity is pointed as the
cause. Question boils down to ' chetanam kaaraNam vaa achetanam
kaaraNam vaa ". Here Vyasacharya has chosen Brahman as the material
cause and does not mention about the prakR^iti. This choice of
Vyasacharya has got lot of significance. Because of this aspect only
this suutra has a great significance.

We will present here few arguments why Vyasacharya chose chetana
brahman as the material cause for the world.

1. Vyasacharya wants to clearly distinguish Vedantic teaching from
Sankhya philosophy. Emphasis of the distinction between the two was
felt important for (a) Sankhya was prevalent at that time and (b)
many of the words are common between the two philosophies. In Sankhya
philosophy they use the word ' purushhaH ' meaning chaitanya aatma or
conscious self. In vedanta also the word purushha is used
extensively. Gita 13-19 the example above uses the word ' purushha '.
In kaThopanishhad also - ' avyaktaat tu paraH purushhaH purushaanna
param ki.nchit ' - The word prakR^riti is also used in Sankhya and
Vedanta as triguNaatmika achetana vastu , unconscious matter has
three guNa -s. More than that the very word Sankhya is used to
indicate Vedantic teaching. In Bhagavatam the Sankhya teaching is
given by Kapila who is incarnate of the Lord Vishnu to his mother,
Devabhuti. Sankhya philosophy is also expounded by Kapila who is
different
   from Bhagavatam Kapila and this Sankhya philosophy is
different from Vedanta. To provide distinction between the two,
Vyasacharya chose the particular suutra. Sankhya philosophy says
achetana prakR^iti is the material cause of the universe. Vyasacharya
uses this as a key suutra to differentiate Vedanta from Sankhya
philosophy by stating clearly that chetana brahman is the material
cause of the universe.

2. In all the systems of philosophy the fundamental question is about
the material cause of the universe. From where did the universe come?
Even science is trying to address this issue either in terms of the
Unified Principle or some Big Bang Theory. Almost all philosophies
arrived at achetana tattvam as the basic material cause for the
universe. For example, for Sankhya and Yoga philosophies, achetana
prakR^iti is the basic material cause. Nyaaya and Vaisheshika claim
that atoms or paramaaNu as the basic material cause. They are called
paramaaNu vaadaH , may be close to modern science. paramaaNu -s join
together under appropriate conditions to form grosser and grosser
matter leading to the formation of jagat or the universe. paramaaNu
-s are also achetanam and hence their theory also falls under
achetana kaaraNa vaadaH. Even the naastika systems of philosophies
they subscribe to achetana kaaraNa vaada each with different names;
pa~ncha skandha -s in Buddhism, astikaaya -s in Jainism etc. Modern
science also assumes matter (or energy) alone is fundamental, no life
at the time of Big Bang - particles or sub-atomic particles
agglomerate to form bigger molecules and life (conscious entity)
originated more recently out of matter that too accidentally when the
conditions became conducive for it. Thus in most of the philosophies,
consciousness is either existing parallel to the matter, or a product
of matter. Even the Vedic philosophies such as - vishishhTaadvaita
and dwaita subscribe to the theory that achetana and chetana
padaartham existing parallel but independent of each other eternally.
Interestingly in nyaaya vaisheshhika philosophies even aatmaa is
considered as one of the nine types of matter. Consciousness is a
property of aatmaa . Hence in principle almost all philosophies are
achetana kaaraNa vaadaH , whereas advaita vedaanta stands out as the
most unique philosophy which presents chetana kaaraNa vaadaH where
the consciousness is the superior to matter as the primary cause or
the universe of matter. ( vishishhTadvaita and dvaita vedanta -s
differ from advaita in the sense that they subscribe achetana tattva
, prakR^iti , as the material cause while chetana tattva , iishwara ,
as the instrumental cause. iishwara being all pervading He pervades
the acetana tattva as well as the chetana jiiva -s - jiiva satyam ,
jagat satyam and paramaatma satyam . The first two are not
independent but depend on paramaatmaa who pervades both, yet
remaining separate). Uniqueness of the advaita vedaanta is its
chetana kaaraNa vaadaH, consciousness is the very essence of the
universe. That means it is the very substratum or content of the
universe and there is no matter other than chaitanyam . Hence the
second suutra presents, Brahman, chetana swaruuupa as the material
cause. Through this suutra Vyasacharya distinguishes Vedanta from
all other systems of philosophies not only Sankhya but also Yoga,
Nyaya, Vaisheshika, Bouddha, Jaina, Charvaka, etc. as well as modern
science etc.

3. No doubt upanishhads point at some places Brahman as the material
cause, at other places prakR^iti as the material cause. Vyasacharya
as the basis for the very first chapter as samanvaya or consistency
establishes starting with suutra 2 that upanishhads declare
predominantly that Brahman is the material cause of the universe.
This in fact may be considered as the essence of the first chapter of
the Brahmasutras.

4. The question then arises how can upanishhads teaching contradict
itself by declaring at one side Brahman as the material cause and
other places prakR^iti is the material cause. Actually there is no
contradiction. According to upanishhads, prakR^iti does exist
independent of purusha (it is a-swatantram or para-tantram and not
swa-tantram ). Since maayaa is non-separate from brahman , whatever
is attributed to maayaa or prakR^iti can be attributed to Brahman
also. (As noted before in the context of creation we are using
Brahman and Iswara are synonymous). Technically we say in Vedanta,
prakR^iti is the pariNaamii upadaana kaaraNam but brahman is vivarta
upaadaana kaaraNam . The definition of vivarta upaadana kaaraNam is
that which lends its existence to the pariNaama kaaraNam , parinaamii
upaadaana kaaraNa adhishhTaanam vivarta upaadaanam . Likewise the
definition of achetana vastu is anyaadhiina satvam and anyaadhiina
prakaashhatvam tat jadam - whose existence and illumination depends
on the other (conscious) entity. In contrast, the definition of
chetana vastu is swayam prakaashhatvam or swayam chaitanyatvam ,
self-existent and self-conscious entity. Hence there is no
self-contradiction in the upanishhads since prakR^iti does not exist
separate from purushha. In contrast in Sankhya philosophy prakR^iti
is independent of purushha. This is the basic difference between the
two philosophies. In Vedanta purushha and prakR^iti are inseparable
like ardhanaariishwara, half shiva and half paarvatii together as
one, or like naarayaNa with lakshmii always carrying her on his
chest). Since prakR^iti is a-swatantram or dependent in Vedanta,
hence at places where prakR^iti is mentioned as the material cause
upanishhads ultimately imply only that Brahman is the material cause.
This aspect Vyasacharya emphasizes in this suutra by declaring that
Brahman is indeed the material cause.

5. In MunDaka and Chandogya one important topic is discussed and that
relates to - eka vij~naanena sarva vij~naanam - by knowing one, one
can know everything. This is possible because upaadaana kaaraNa
vij~naanena sarva kaarya vij~naanam bhavati - by knowing one material
cause all the products are known. This is because the products do not
exist separate from its material cause just as bangle cannot exist
separate from gold. And in the process, the upanishhads for gaining
sarva vij~naanam teach the student the brahma j~naanam or the
knowledge of Brahman. In Gita Krishna says:

j~naanam te.aha.n savij~naanam idam vakshyaamyasheshhataH |
yaj j~naatvaa neha bhuuyo.anyat j~naatavyam avashishhyate ||

I am going to teach you (Arjuna) brahmaj~naanam completely. Knowing
this there will be nothing else left for you to know.

If suppose prakR^iti is the material cause then knowing prakR^iti,
sarva vij~naanam will not come. But if Brahman is the material cause
then knowing Brahman, sarvavij~naanam will come. Since the first one
does not result in sarva vij~naanam , it follows that Brahman has to
be the material cause knowing which everything should be known. (when
naarayaNa comes lakshmii also comes with Him, but if one goes after
only Lakshmi alone one gets ruined just as it happened to raavaNa ).
Hence brahma j~naanena sarva vij~naanaM bhavati is essential truth
discussed both in Mundaka and Chandogya. This is possible only if
Brahman is the material cause of the universe. This is indirectly
implied by Vyasacharya by the emphasis of Brahman as the material
cause of the universe in this suutra.

Hence the second suutra is a very significant suutra which presents
the chetana kaaraNa vaadaH , which is the uniqueness of the vedaanta
shaastram. It is not there in any of the aastika as well as naastika
darshanam -s and is unique to Vedanta, particularly to Advaita
Vedanta.

With this discussion of the second suutra is over.

Next we take the third suutra that belongs to third adhikaraNa.

Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Appeal: Gujarat Earthquake
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:38:46 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


"Those who live abroad sometimes have a tendency to give a
 measly sum, say $ 50, thinking of the multiplicative factor
of the
 exchange rate. This is nonsense. Give one day's salary,
people! This
 is the least you can do. Let the pain be equally shared
amongst all
 of us."

 http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/31rajeev.htm


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Rajayoga - Layayoga
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:44:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Warm greetings to all!

I began a practice of Hathayoga and meditation about a 2 years ago and have
begun to seek a deeper practice, hence my interest in Advaita-Vedanta. I
have read many of the books of the Himalayan Institute plus Vivekananda's
"Raja Yoga" and another book called "How to Know God." Both of these are
Translations and commentaries on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. My interest in the
Chakras has further lead me to a recent publication simply called "Layayoga"
by Goswami.

Can someone explain the difference between Rajayoga and Layayoga? So far,
Layayoga seems to be very similar to Rajayoga, but with a more detailed
emphasis on the Chakras.

Are there any Layayoga Masters in the West from whom to learn this path? I
know that books can only take me so

>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Greetings and Further Introduction
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:38:18 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


What a jewel I have found in this list!

I hope I will someday be able to contribute, but for now I'm afraid I will
have to limit my involvement to asking questions. Please excuse my naivete
in advance. On these matters I am still a child!

A further introduction might be helpful to all.

My name is Gregg Bell. I am 41 years old, married with three children ages
4-10 who all love Hathayoga. Originally from Texas, I currently live in
Alabama (the southeastern U.S.) where I am earning a Ph.D. in Finance from
the University of Alabama. My wonderful wife, Anne and I don't fight much,
but recently we bicker over who will read Vivekananda at night!

My formal experience in Vedanta and Yoga have been limited to the books I
can read (mostly from the Himalayan Institute) and a one week intensive at
the Sivananda Farm in New York State. I practice Hathayoga and meditation
twice daily. For me, Hathayoga is not a complete path, but preparation for
meditation.

Along the way, I will appreciate information on any teachers that members of
the list may have knowledge of, both in India and the West. Of course, India
is a long expensive trip for me, but who knows what time will bring!? I
should be ready when the opportunity arises, right?

Thanks again for allowing me to be part of what I already know is a
wonderful community.

Om Shanti, Shanti,

>From kartik at K...
Subject: Hari OM
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:10:50 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
Pranam

The Divine Life Society of Maryland's Annual Summer Sadhana
Retreat is going to be held from Friday, 29 June to
Thursday, 5 July this year. Space is limited. Please refer
to the following page for further details:
http://www.dlsmd.org/home/activiti.htm

Pranam

OM



---------------------------------------------
Get FREE E-Mail at Y...
http://www.valuemail.net

>From kartik at K...
Subject: Hari OM
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:12:03 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
Pranam

We have uploaded a discourse by Gurudev Sri Swami
Sivanandaji Maharaj titled "God Operates In Selfless
Service" at:
http://www.SivanandaDlshq.org/discourse/feb2001.htm

A lecture by Sri Swami Krishnanandaji Maharaj
titled "Prayer for Departed Souls, Its Purpose and Pre-
Requisites" has been uploaded to Sri Swamiji's site at:
http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/disc/disc_32.html


Pranam

OM



---------------------------------------------
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http://www.valuemail.net

>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: TELEPHONE LECTURES ANNOUNCEMENT
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:02:11 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


Namaste to all,

This talk which was formerly announced to be at 9:30pm EST, Saturday Feb
3rd, has now been changed to 9:30am EST, Sunday Feb 4th. Just in case
someone was planning to listen...

Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami (Sri Varadeshikachar from his purvAshrama days) is
a great teacher. He was my Sanskrit teacher for my 11th and 12th grades in
National College, Bangalore. I really enjoyed his classes. Unfortunately, I
cannot listen due to sunday Geetha classes at that time. I encourage you all
to listen.

Savithri

>
>
2. ``INTRODUCTION TO THE VEDAS''

 by
 Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami,
 Sri Ashtanga Yoga Vijnana Mandira
 Bangalore


DATE: February 3, 2000 (Saturday night, US time)
 6:30 pm PST / 9:30 pm EST
 (8:00 am IST)

Web Page: http://www.ramanuja.org/svss/rangapriya.html

Contact: rangapriya at r... for automated info
 OR
 Mani Varadarajan (mani at r...)
 Smt.Nagu Satyan (satyan at w...)

Requested Donation: $8 (registration details below)

REMINDER: We have asked Sri Rangapriya Swami to speak in English
so that he may reach the widest possible audience. This talk is
intended primarily for mature teenagers and young adults who are
interested in discovering more about the Vedic tradition. Youngsters
such as these from all religious backgrounds are invited to listen.

--------------------------------------------------------------


HOW TO LISTEN
-------------
The easiest way to register is to donate towards the lectures.
You can do so by going to the following Web page:

 http://www.ramanuja.org/svss/lectures.html

Upon paying with your credit card (MC/Visa) using the secure
payment system, you will automatically receive the teleconference
instructions.

If you do not have a credit card and prefer to sponsor by check,
simply send email specific for each lecture to

nsa at r... (for Sri NS Anantha Rangacharya Lecture)

rangapriya at r... (For Sri Rangapriya Swami Lecture)

You will automatically receive a response with the phone number and
other details.

If there are questions, please contact Mani Varadarajan
(mani at r...), Krishna Kalale (kkalale1 at s...) or Smt. Nagu
Satyan at 303-973-4847 (satyan at w...).

in the spirit of service,
Mani and Krishna
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Jagannathan Mahadevan <jagan at C...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 12:13:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: TELEPHONE LECTURES ANNOUNCEMENT
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Jagannathan Mahadevan <jagan at C...>


Dear friends,
I wish to inform the list members about a lecture series on
"Tatvabodha" and miscellaneous lectures like " Preparation for real
life", "How to play the game of life", and "Bhagvad Gita-the message for
modern man". The lectures are going on at Tucson, Arizona.

Anybody who is interested to listen to the lectures on the phone are
welcome to join a conference call within the United States.
Please contact me by e-mail or phone (given below) to know about the times
of the lectures.

Adhyatmaji, who is giving the lectures, has studied the vedas and the
upanishads from various masters in Kashi, Omkareshwar and in the
Himalayas. He first studied under Swami Chinmayananda and went on for
further studies in Kashi and various other places. To learn more about
Adhyatmaji, please see the website
www.angelfire.com/sd/adhyatma
All the lectures are in english interspersed with sanskrit terms which are
duly explained.
Thanks
Jagannathan

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Love yourself and you will love everybody"
"Pardon yourself and you have the capacity to pardon others"
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mahadevan Jagannathan,
Graduate Student, 3301, Speedway, # 203,
Department of Chemical Engineering, Austin, Texas,
University of Texas at Austin, TX 78705.
Texas, TX 78705.
Ph: (512) 471-0277 Ph: (512) 481-9590
Mobile: (512)

>From "Miro" <clodb at b...>
Subject: sign-off
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:19:08 -0200
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Miro" <clodb at b...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 please sign me off the list


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From kartik at K...
Subject: Earthquake Story
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 17:40:29 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
Pranam
Quake Victim Kept Up Hope, as Did Rescuers
By PAUL WATSON, Times Staff Writer


ANJAR, India--For four days, Kunal Doshi was trapped naked
in rubble up to his neck. But he refused to give up, so his
rescuers knew they had to try everything to pull him free.
They finally saved the 15-year-old boy in the early morning
darkness Tuesday after Indian army surgeon Lt. Col. Prem
Singh Bhandari did what other doctors could not.
He amputated Kunal's leg with a large knife, a hammer, a
chisel and a carpenter's saw, working in a space not much
bigger than a large drawer in the boy's concrete tomb.
Soldiers and civilians had failed in one rescue attempt
after another during the 88 hours that Kunal was trapped in
the ruins of a collapsed four-story apartment building. His
sheer will to live, they said, meant that they couldn't let
him die like an estimated 20,000 others killed by last
week's massive earthquake here in western India's Gujarat
state.
"I was thinking of God only," he said from an army hospital
cot Tuesday night, searching for the words in English
through a sedative haze after his rescue, one of at least
four reported Tuesday. "God didn't answer me. I only kept
my faith in God."
Kunal, a Hindu, was getting ready to take a bath when the
magnitude 7.9 quake hit this town about 8:30 Friday
morning, shattering a whole neighborhood of apartment
blocks into so many pieces it looked like it had been
carpet-bombed.
When the rumbling stopped, Kunal's head was above the
debris. But his right leg was bent in a kneeling position,
with the ankle and thigh crushed under chunks of concrete,
and his left leg was thrust straight forward into the
debris. His right arm was trapped pointing toward the sky.
A thick wooden door had come to rest inches above the boy's
head, with a hole in it just large enough for a rescuer's
hand to reach through.
That's how the first people to find Kunal fed him, by hand,
carefully pouring orange juice and sugar water into his
open mouth. Hold on, they kept saying. Help is coming.
Rescuers had learned that Kunal was alive only after they
pulled his 18-year-old sister, Rachana, from the ruins
several hours after the quake and she told them that her
brother was still breathing.
Without any drugs to ease his agony, the boy would stay in
the wreckage, as if frozen, almost four entire nights in
temperatures that dropped to about 45 degrees.
One of the first people to join the rescue effort was
Haresh Bhatt, 52, vice president of Bagrang Dal, an
extremist Hindu nationalist organization. The group sent
dozens of volunteers to Gujarat to join a quake relief
operation mounted by government agencies, political
parties, religious groups and charities.
Bhatt said that starting about noon Saturday, more than a
day after the quake, he and others took turns talking
through the small hole to Kunal about anything that would
keep him from slipping into shock, and then death.
"He was a very courageous boy," Bhatt said. "He was only
saying: 'Don't worry about me. Take your time, but just
take me out.' "
The first army engineers were airlifted into this small
town surrounded by desert scrub Sunday afternoon without
the right equipment. They had to get crowbars from local
people and chipped away at the rubble.
The 415 Independent Engineers Squadron took over the
operation Monday morning with power drills and saws.
Soldiers such as Raghunathan Havaldar Babu, a 37-year-old
junior commissioned officer, and Sapper Mukundarao Havaldar
Janaranadhan, 34, finally started to cut a path through to
Kunal to free his left leg.
When the boy wasn't asking for food or water or blankets,
Capt. Kishore Kumar, 33, tried to keep the conversation
going by asking him about his family.
"I asked him, 'Where is your sister?' " the captain said.
"She is playing," the boy replied.
Then the captain asked Kunal, "Where is your father?"
"Sleeping," the boy said. His father, Mukesh Doshi, 46, is
still buried somewhere in the rubble of their apartment
building, where the stench of death grows stronger with
each passing hour.
Capt. Sree Kumar, 33, asked Kunal where his school was and
what he was studying.
"Mathematics," the boy replied.
A Russian civilian rescue team arrived Monday night with
more digging equipment and an anesthetist, who gave Kunal a
strong enough dose around 9 p.m. to leave him unconscious
for about half an hour.
An Indian doctor standing by couldn't even begin to cut the
boy's trapped right leg off in that short time, so Kunal
awoke from the anesthetic, in excruciating pain, with a
tourniquet tied tightly around his smashed leg.
"He was wailing and crying," said the army engineers'
commander, Lt. Col. Chavali Murty, 38. "He was
saying, 'Leave me alone!' The boy was getting panicky."
Bhandari, the army surgeon, was about to start dinner in a
mess hall around 10 p.m. when he was called to join the
rescue mission, which was about a 10-minute drive away.
It took Bhandari and anesthetist Col. Shirish Chendra, 38,
about five minutes to scramble up the heap of rubble, about
200 yards in the dark, to the mouth of Kunal's tiny crawl
space.
Because Kunal had already been put under general anesthesia
once that night, it was too dangerous to give him more than
a five-minute dose for the second amputation attempt.
Bhandari crawled into what he described as "a cave about 2
feet by 2 1/2 feet," and as the surgeon knelt beside the
boy, squinting to see in the half-light, another doctor
outside fired a blast of compressed oxygen every 30 seconds
so Bhandari and the boy wouldn't suffocate.
"I'd already decided I had to do this fast, so I asked for
a large knife," Bhandari said. "And in one go, I just cut
the skin and all the soft tissues. The only problem was how
to cut the bone. There was no place to move my hand."
Bhandari pulled out a hammer and an osteotome, a kind of
surgical chisel, and cut into the bone.
"With about 70% of the bone cut," he said, "I asked these
Russian people to pull the boy up, and then I used a
carpenter's saw."
The whole operation, from cut to clamp, took three minutes.
About five minutes later, as doctors struggled to keep
Kunal from bleeding to death, the boy was in an ambulance
speeding to a field hospital operating room.
The army surgeon had a one in 10 chance of amputating
Kunal's leg without killing him, said Bivhuti Dash, a
civilian physician and Hindu who was one of six doctors on
the rescue team.
"How could a person survive for so long, with one leg
crushed?" Dash said. "He must have been in severe agony,
without any hope of survival, thinking his whole family had
probably died.
"That would send most people into shock. Coming out of that
alive is all that makes you feel there is something called
God."

Pranam
OM



---------------------------------------------
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http://www.valuemail.net

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:26:30 -0500
Subject: ADMIN: quoting from other sources
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


I request list-members to be careful about posting entire articles from
other people/websites/magazines/newspapers. We have to be careful about
copyright issues. What starts off as a genuine attempt should not end up
creating problems. We should not violate any copyright laws in a desire to
do good.

If you find an internet item that other members might find interesting,
please post the URL of the site where it might be found. Please do not quote
the entire article or even an entire paragraph. One or two sentences, marked
appropriately with quotation marks should be fine. People can read the rest
of the article at the original source

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:39:53 -0500
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


>Doubts:
>1. When a body falls, the Universal soul withdraws its energy/consciousness
>from the body. Why does it retain vasanas, karma etc., if it were to be
>unsullied by the deeds of prakriti.

If we are to call Brahman the Universal soul, it always pervades everything,
including a dead body. The wooden table and the electronic machine in front
of me are made of matter, just as my body is made of matter. The universal
consciousness is present everywhere.

Physical death is basically a shut-down of the functioning of the body, for
one reason or the other. The vAsanAs and samskAras belong to prakRti. The
universal soul doesn't go anywhere, nor does it get affected by these. What
retains the vAsanAs is the sUkshma-SarIra, the subtle body, which reflects
consciousness and behaves as if it were an independent local sentient being.

>2. More than that this Universal soul being Iswara Himself (as per advaita)
>how does He get entangled into karma.
>3. When a calamity happens and it kills somebody or lots of people, whom is
>Iswara punishing in the real sense? Is Iswara punishing?

Why should we look at it as a deliberate punishment at all? We can consider
these calamities as giving people an opportunity to do good deeds, and to
think and reflect on what our real values should be in this life.

>
> Briefly put, where does the concept of "individual karmas" fit in
>a system of thought that presents the Universe as being pervaded by "one
>and only one sentient being".

guNA guNeshu vartate. The individual karmas are delimited by the body. So
long as we identify ourselves with the various layers of the body, from the
outer material body to the inner mind and intellect, thus long do individual
karmas fit

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 18:48:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Appeal: Gujarat Earthquake
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 15:38:46 -0000, Vishal Agarwal
<vishalagarwal at H...> wrote:

>"Those who live abroad sometimes have a tendency to give a
> measly sum, say $ 50, thinking of the multiplicative
factor
>of the
> exchange rate. This is nonsense. Give one day's salary,
>people! This
> is the least you can do. Let the pain be equally shared
>amongst all
> of us."
>
> http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/jan/31rajeev.htm
>

I would say, for a cause such as this one, atleast 1% of the annual salary
should be given. It is a shame that the Indian Govt. has to literally
beg the international community for a couple of billion dollars in aid.
Given the fact that we have today many many Indian millionaires, multi-
millionaires, and even a few billionaires in DOLLAR terms (not rupees),
and also a relatively (compared just a decade ago) large number of
rich Indians living in India, it only portrays a callous and
hard-hearted attitude towards people in suffering. These well-to-do
Indians are really poor, poor in spiritual and moral

>From Chandrasekaran Venkatraman <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 02:02:18 -0500
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Chandrasekaran Venkatraman <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Vidyashankar,
 Thank you for responding to my doubts. Please bear with me if I extend
this discussion a wee bit more.

>Why should we look at it as a deliberate punishment at all? We can consider
>these calamities as giving people an opportunity to do good deeds, and to
>think and reflect on what our real values should be in this life.

 Please don't misunderstand me. That was not a sadist's remark.
 Karma theory itself is presented in our system of thought in order to
explain the inequality in the society. So I feel we have to acknowledge the
duality of sufferings and enjoyments when talking about karma. So in the
above context, some sUkshma-SarIra is getting inflicted with suffering
owing to its karma. Some other sUkshma-SarIra gets an opportunity to
do good and realise the transient nature of life when seeing the death,
distress and destruction around. Please explain what role Iswara plays
in this. It appears to me the sUkshma-sarIra is putting itself into a
problem and itself redeeming, because the Universal Brahman (Iswara) only
illumines the sUkshma so as to experience. Please guide me here. How is
the Iswara bringing about the events that mete out judgements to individuals
in this system ? Is this to be simply understood as mAyA-lIlA and nothing
more?

 On a side note, in fact, sometimes I feel suffering itself is good because
we get to deplete our accrued karma which is like paying off debt which is
ofcourse painful since money goes away but at the same time our debt
decreases by that much amount. Ofcourse, it is ideal to not have any debt at
all.

 Looking forward to your clarification.

 Thanks,


>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 05:15:19 -0500
Subject: Re: a Story from the earthquake
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


The only way we can properly relate Isvara with perceived good
or bad karma is to agree that Isvara has to be a just being.
A judge studies a case and passes judgemen, but does not get
involved beyond that. We look for other instruments - jailers,
prison guards, lawyers and executioners - to do other kinds of
jobs. The natural universe has its way of taking care of these
things, without actively involving Isvara. That is why the Gita
commentary says that Isvara is sAkshi-mAtra (just the witness).

Who knows what unending history of karma each person brings in,
with every birth? Some die peacefully in their sleep, others
die after tortured lives and extended suffering, and yet others
die in large numbers, in earthquakes and floods and famines. We
have to also look at karma in a two-fold way. We each have our
individual baggage of karma, the "micro" level of karma, so to
speak. But by that very mechanism of action, we affect the world
around us and get affected in turn. So there is a "macro" karma
too, in which we take part. It is the latter kind of karma that
seems to be more involved in society, caste etc.

Oftentimes, when a natural calamity occurs, we tend to think
that those who die have suffered. It is probably not so. It is
the living who suffer more than those who have gone. Survivors
from the actual site of the disaster have to live with great
physical and mental pain. And when we sit at a distance and
hear of the casualties, we feel the mental pain. Many people
donate something, just to get rid of their own pain and to
feel a little good about themselves. But we have to do better
than that, and realize that this should not be about our own
little set of feelings. These are the times that are the true
tests of how we

>From Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 10:03:42 -0330 (NST)
Reply-To: Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>
Subject: Re: [advaitin] Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E: *definition* of brahman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>


namaste.

I like to continue the argument here that brahman cannot be
*defined*. As by definition, definition is one that limits the
object and presents overall some boundaries. Brahman cannot be
bound as such.

I see shri Sadananda garu's logic, however, using the word
*definition* either for taTasthalakshaNa or swarUpalakshaNa
perspective is still not appropriate, I think. Further, the
TaittirIya u. statements "yato vA imAni bhUtAni..." indicating
the taTasthalakshaNa or "satyam jnAnam anantam brahma..." indicating
the swarUpalakshaNa are not definitions, but indicators only.

We can *define* an object, if we take ourselves away from the
object and look at it passively. However, that is not the case
with brahman. We cannot separate ourselves away from brahman.
Further, we cannot treat brahman as an object to be defined
and limited. Any attempt at defining brahman always falls short
for this reason.

In conclusion, while enjoying very much shri sadananda garu's
presentations, I feel usage of the word 'definition' associated
with brahman, is, in my view, not a very correct usage. What is
the actual sanskrit word used by shri shankara in this context?
If it is the word "lakshaNam.h", can there be a better translation
of the word than "definition"?


Regards
Gummuluru

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 11:03:39 -0500
Subject: Re: [advaitin] Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E: *definition* of brahman
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


Murthy gaaru - I saw Shree Ram Chandran's response to your mail. I
concur with him. There is not much I can add to what he has been
discussed.

Remember Brahman itself means infiniteness - any indicators of
infinity fall short. But do you agree the difference between the
taTasta lakshaNa - as jagat kaaraNam versus swaruupa lakshaNa in
terms of satyam, j~naanam and anandam or anantam Brahma. The
difference is John's house - the one with red paint with a large
fence is john's house versus the one where a crow is sitting right
now is john's house. one is swaruupa and the other is taTasta.
Jagat kaaraNam is like crow sitting on the house while satyam,
j`naanam anantam is like red paint etc of the house. In the case of
Brahman, he does not need any pointers - Jiiva who feels he is
differnt from brahman needs pointers and the pointers can be
effective only if jiiva understand those pointers. Hence LakshaNa is
from the point of jiiva and difference between taTasta and swaruupa
lakshaNa still exists even if Brahman cannot be definable.

- one suggestion - when you respond could you remove the copy field
since most of them opted only for the notes and not subsequent
discussions. Thanks.

Hari Om!
Sadananda




>namaste.
>
>I like to continue the argument here that brahman cannot be
>*defined*. As by definition, definition is one that limits the
>object and presents overall some boundaries. Brahman cannot be
>bound as such.
>
>I see shri Sadananda garu's logic, however, using the word
>*definition* either for taTasthalakshaNa or swarUpalakshaNa
>perspective is still not appropriate, I think. Further, the
>TaittirIya u. statements "yato vA imAni bhUtAni..." indicating
>the taTasthalakshaNa or "satyam jnAnam anantam brahma..." indicating
>the swarUpalakshaNa are not definitions, but indicators only.
>
>We can *define* an object, if we take ourselves away from the
>object and look at it passively. However, that is not the case
>with brahman. We cannot separate ourselves away from brahman.
>Further, we cannot treat brahman as an object to be defined
>and limited. Any attempt at defining brahman always falls short
>for this reason.
>
>In conclusion, while enjoying very much shri sadananda garu's
>presentations, I feel usage of the word 'definition' associated
>with brahman, is, in my view, not a very correct usage. What is
>the actual sanskrit word used by shri shankara in this context?
>If it is the word "lakshaNam.h", can there be a better translation
>of the word than "definition"?
>
>
>Regards
>Gummuluru Murthy
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Discussion of Sankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity
>of Atman and Brahman.
>Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/
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--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: The four debts of man
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 17:03:23 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


>From the Shatapatha Brahman of Shukla Yajurveda (Kanva Sakha).

The last debt mentioned is particularly relevant to us now because of the
Gujarat calamity right now.

2.6.4.1 A person who exists, being born, indeed is born as (one owing) a
debt to the gods, the Rsis and the manes.
2.6.4.2 In that he should perform a sacrifice, by that arises (lightens) a
debt to the gods, for, he performs it for the sake of the gods in that he
sacrifices to (worships) the gods and in that he offers oblations to them.
2.6.4.3 And in that he should recite (the Vedas), by that arises (lightens)
the debt to the Rsis. That he recites (the Vedas) he indeed performs it for
them. Verily they call the person who has studied the Vedas 'The guardian of
the treasure of the Rsis.'
2.6.4.4 And in that he should desire for progeny, thereby arises (lightens)
a debt to the manes. That he desires for progeny, he does that indeed for
their sake. Thereby, their progeny becomes continuous and unbroken.
2.6.4.5 And that he should provide shelter, by that arises (lightens) the
debt to men. That he shelters them, that he offers food to them, that he
indeed acts for their sake. He who verily performs all these actions indeed
is one who has done his duty. For him, everything is certainly secured,
everything is won.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 13:06:46 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Earthquake: Donations in Kind
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


Here is your chance to come forward to help in kind.
Hari Om!
Sadananda

>
>Dear Mr Sadananda:
>
>Questions have been raised whether, apart from financial contributions, it's
>possible for Indian-Americans to make donations in kind, such as clothes, for
>the relief of our suffering brethren in Gujarat.
>
>>From past experience, it's learnt that clothes and similar items
>>are difficult
>to transport. Moreover, at this point the things in kind that are
>urgently needed
>are:
>
>1) Tents & Sleeping bags
>
>2) Medicines - U/V Fluids, Antibiotics, Pain Killers, Antacid, Anti-Bacterial
>medicine, Asthma medicine, Bandages, Syringes; Oral Dehydration
>Kits, Dysentery/Diarrhea
>prevention medicine; Plaster; First-aid kits; Water Purifiers;
>Orthopedic medical
>equipments.
>
>AIR-INDIA COORDINATION
>
>Air India will lift relief material from various parts of the world
>on a priority
>basis at free of charge for the Gujarat quake victims. The relief
>material would
>be accorded priority keeping in view the urgency of its requirement
>for the victims.
>
>In the United States, the Air-India flies from Chicago and New York.
>The Consulate
>General in Chicago & New York will coordinate between Air-India and
>the donors.
>Authorization from the Consulate would be necessary for free transportation by
>Air India to Ahmedabad.
>
>CHICAGO
>Mr. Ashok Das
>Head of Chancery
>Consulate General of India, Chicago
>455 N. Cityfront Plaza Drive, Suite 850
>Chicago, IL 60611
>Tel: (312) 595-0414
>Fax: (312) 595-0417
>
>NEW YORK
>Mr. Azad Toor
>Consulate General of India, New York
>3 East, 64th Street
>New York, NY 10021
>Tel: (212) 774-0625
>Fax: (212)734-1595
>Email: indcprny at a...
>
>For people who have collected items such as clothes who still wish to try to
>get them to Gujarat, I am told, their best bet is to get in touch
>directly with
>some of the airlines which fly the India route, such as Singapore
>Airlines, Thai
>Airways, Asiana Airlines, Virgin Atlantic etc. Some of these airlines have in
>the past, it seems, carried such items free of cost in similar
>situations. Hopefully,
>they may do so again. It may be worth trying.
>
>Meanwhile, Indian-Americans will be happy to know that yesterday,
>the U.S. Congress
>passed a concurrent resolution praising the courage of the Indian people and
>pledging support to their efforts in rebuilding their cities and their lives.
>
>The resolution expressed support for:
>
>a) continuing and substantially increasing the amount of disaster assistance
>being provided by the United States Agency for International
>Development (USAID)
>and other relief agencies; and
>
>b) providing future economic assistance in order to help rebuild Gujarat.
>
>It also urged President Bush to back economic assistance efforts by
>international
>financial institutions.
>
>Best wishes!
>
>Ram Narayanan
>On-Line Resource for Indian-Americans
>http://www.indiatogether.org/us/lobby.htm

--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From Chandrasekaran Venkatraman <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 16:02:52 -0500
Subject: calamity bridges racial divide
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Chandrasekaran Venkatraman <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear members,
 Here is some heartening news :

http://www.the-hindu.com/stories/0102000b.htm

 Regards,


>From kartik at K...
Subject: Western Media-Unbiased and Courageous Coverage
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 22:05:10 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
GURUR BRAHMA GURUR VISNU GURUR DEVO MAHESHVARAH
GURUH SAKSHAT PARAM BRAHM TASMAI SRI GURVE NAMAH
OM NAMAH SIVAYA
OM NAMAH SIVANANDAYA

Blessed Self,
Sometime back I had posted a mail condemning the Western
media for their coverage of the Kumbh Mela.
I now understand some more the virtues of being balanced in
mind.
I congratulate the media, specifically the Western Media in
bringing to all of us away from the scene of the earthquake
in Gujrat, unbiased, comprehensive, prompt, detailed and
truthful coverage.
It must demand great courage to live in a disaster struck
area and report from there, coping with lack of basic
amenities and going beyong the CALL OF THE JOB, is a sign
of strength and Spiritual development.
Thank You. And please accept my apologies.
Pranam
OM

---------------------------------------------
Get FREE E-Mail at Y...
http://www.valuemail.net

>From "Ram Chandran" <rchandran at c...>
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 00:01:38 -0000
Subject: Fwd: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E: *definition* of brahman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ram Chandran" <rchandran at c...>


Namaste Murthygaru:

Your arguement regarding the definition of the Brahman is quite
compelling, but other alternatives are less useful. If you can suggest
an alternative with more insights, please share it with all of us
and we are looking forward to your thoughts.

In mathematics, the non-definable infinity is defined implicitly
with the application of finite algebra and limit theorems. Even though
our destination is undefinable, we do need a starting point. The
definition or notion of Brahman with a limited boundary become a
necessary tool to realize the undefinable. Knowledge is progressive,
it is very limited at the starting point, but limited boundary of
knowledge slowly expands to realize the wisdom of unlimited Brahman.
The real line in mathematics is a good example, we start with 0, 1, 2,
3, ...... to reach the infinity!

Finally, I like the spirit of your argument with unlimited
enthusiasm and it will certainly serve as a useful reminder to
vedantins such definitions are the means and not the end!

regards,

Ram Chandran




--- In advaitin at y..., Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...> wrote:
>
>
> namaste.
>
> I like to continue the argument here that brahman cannot be
> *defined*. As by definition, definition is one that limits the
> object and presents overall some boundaries. Brahman cannot be
> bound as such.
>
> I see shri Sadananda garu's logic, however, using the word
> *definition* either for taTasthalakshaNa or swarUpalakshaNa
> perspective is still not appropriate, I think. Further, the
> TaittirIya u. statements "yato vA imAni bhUtAni..." indicating
> the taTasthalakshaNa or "satyam jnAnam anantam brahma..." indicating
> the swarUpalakshaNa are not definitions, but indicators only.
>
> We can *define* an object, if we take ourselves away from the
> object and look at it passively. However, that is not the case
> with brahman. We cannot separate ourselves away from brahman.
> Further, we cannot treat brahman as an object to be defined
> and limited. Any attempt at defining brahman always falls short
> for this reason.
>
> In conclusion, while enjoying very much shri sadananda garu's
> presentations, I feel usage of the word 'definition' associated
> with brahman, is, in my view, not a very correct usage. What is
> the actual sanskrit word used by shri shankara in this context?
> If it is the word "lakshaNam.h", can there be a better translation
> of the word than "definition"?
>
>
> Regards
> Gummuluru Murthy
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------
--
--- End forwarded message

>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 19:40:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Gujarat Quake Donation Pointers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


Hello all :

 Based on some discussions in the last few days,
I am sending this mail to the entire list. I know that
this is outside the scope but request an exception
considering the enormity of this disaster.

I would like to share some pointers on donations.

1. Please donate to NGOs only.
 PM/CM's relief funds are not accountable.

2. Please donate to local NGOs which do good work.
 In this case, BAPS Care
 http://bapscare.org/bapscenters.htm
 They have a very good network in Gujarat.

3. International RedCross is also very good.
 They are currently doing a tremendous relief effort
 and can use all the support that they can get.

4. Donations of Clothes, food etc. is not that productive.
 As insane as it may sound, such "essential" items harldy
 ever reach in time. There is a huge delay in getting
 cargo shipments to the disaster zone in time.
 Also, in Gujarat, there are different food preferences
 and most of the people are politely refusing to wear
 used clothes as they are not comfortable in them.
 Besides food and medicines can be purchased easily in
 India itself. The doctors also prefer to work with
local
 medicines.
 BAPS Care is collecting blankets and tents which would
 be VERY useful.
 The best possible donation would be money. Once the
 relief efforts are done ( usually 2-3 weeks ) and the
 re-hab phase starts, this is what is in short supply.

Thanks,

-Vivek.

__________________________________________________
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:22:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Vedanta and ethics (and plumbing :-) [part 1]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


A while back there was a thread involving a quote about plumbing. It was
very interesting to read the responses to it. Unfortunately at that time
I couldn't participate. But recently a new member asked about Vedanta and
ethics and that got me thinking.

A few years ago one of my uncles in Texas built a house. He wasn't able
to move in to it for several months because it was in a new subdivision in
a rural area and the sewer lines hadn't been extended up there yet. It's
a very nice house. But without plumbing, it was uninhabitable.

In philosophy as well as architecture, plumbing is important! Bharat has
given birth to many great philosophies full of profound thoughts. Some of
them, like Advaita Vedanta, survive to this day. Others
are only footnotes in history books. What causes one set of thoughts to
flourish and another set to perish? Take for example Buddhism. It had a
long and storied existence in India. In fact there is a period in which
an observer might think Buddhism had triumphed and Vedic dharma had ceased
to exist. Buddhism in its Indian phase was totally absorbed with
vairagya. Great vihars or monastaries were populated by thousands of
monks seeking nirvana. Lay people were ignored or at best tolerated as a
necessary evil for the support of the sangha. In other words, the
Buddhists neglected the plumbing. As a result when the Muslim invasions
put an end to the vihars, Buddhism simply vanished. The Astikas and
their institutions were also damaged by the turmoil but because they had
the support of the people, they were quickly able to recover.

To understand this we need to look at the situation in Shankaracharyas
time. On the one hand there were extremist renouncers both nastika like
the Buddhists and astika like Samkhya/Yoga etc. They cared nothing for
the grhasthas. On the other hand there were the various theistic sects
squabbling amongst themselves about whether Vishnu Bhagawan was superior
to Shiva Bhagawan or Surya Bhagawan was superior to Ganesh Bhagawan etc.
and the Mimamsakas who staunchly upheld Vedic karma. These groups had no
use for Jnana. It is the genius of Shankaracharya that he was able to
blend both ideals into a coherant whole.

In the next part, I'll go into how he did this.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:35:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Gujarat Quake Donation Pointers
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Vivek Anand Ganesan wrote:

> Hello all :
>
> Based on some discussions in the last few days,
> I am sending this mail to the entire list. I know that
> this is outside the scope but request an exception
> considering the enormity of this disaster.
>

Yes this is why I haven't said anything recent posts concerning disaster
relief and the like.

However I do request that list members think more about the philosophical
implications of tragedy (which is inevitable in samsara) rather than the
specific tragedy itself.

> I would like to share some pointers on donations.
>
> 1. Please donate to NGOs only.
> PM/CM's relief funds are not accountable.
>

It's sad but true that a lot of mney that's earmarked for aid gets lost
in red tape or corruption.

> 2. Please donate to local NGOs which do good work.
> In this case, BAPS Care
> http://bapscare.org/bapscenters.htm
> They have a very good network in Gujarat.
>

And they are very dedicated. I've heard from friends who are Swaminarayan
Satsangis that after hearing an appeal from H.H. Pramukh Swamiji (their
guru) several businessmen presented the local mandir with blank checks to
be filled in with whatever amount necessary.

> 3. International RedCross is also very good.
> They are currently doing a tremendous relief effort
> and can use all the support that they can get.
>
> 4. Donations of Clothes, food etc. is not that productive.
> As insane as it may sound, such "essential" items harldy
> ever reach in time. There is a huge delay in getting
> cargo shipments to the disaster zone in time.
> Also, in Gujarat, there are different food preferences
> and most of the people are politely refusing to wear
> used clothes as they are not comfortable in them.
> Besides food and medicines can be purchased easily in
> India itself. The doctors also prefer to work with
> local
> medicines.
> BAPS Care is collecting blankets and tents which would
> be VERY useful.
> The best possible donation would be money. Once the
> relief efforts are done ( usually 2-3 weeks ) and the
> re-hab phase starts, this is what is in short supply.

Even if they survived the quake, many buildings will have to be demolished
due to structural damage. So many people are going to be homeless. It's
winter in Gujarat and it can get very cold.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 02:06:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E: *definition* of brahman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 2 Feb 2001, Ram Chandran wrote:

> The real line in mathematics is a good example, we start with 0, 1, 2,
> 3, ...... to reach the infinity!
>

But you never reach infinity! Thus the mathematical analogy is flawed. A
jnani knows brahman 100% not 99.9999...%

When we say Brahman is not definable, it means that we lack the means to
define it not that it doesn't have a positive definition. I'll make an
analogy: if you have ruler marked in inches you can measure the length of
things. Can you tell how many liters of water in a container with a
ruler? Of course not, inches and liters belong to two seperate classes of
units. Then does that mean the liquid capacity of the container cannot be
measured? That's not true either you just need the right tools.

In the same way we can say Brahman is satyam jnanam anantam etc. even if
-- at this particular point -- we do not understand the full implications
of those terms.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 02:16:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [advaitin] Notes on BSB I-i-2-1E: *definition* of brahman
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 1 Feb 2001, Gummuluru Murthy wrote:

> I feel usage of the word 'definition' associated
> with brahman, is, in my view, not a very correct usage. What is
> the actual sanskrit word used by shri shankara in this context?
> If it is the word "lakshaNam.h", can there be a better translation
> of the word than "definition"?
>

How about "indication" or "distingushing characteristic"? A classic
example is yatra yatra dhumavat tatra tatra vahni .("wherever there is
smoke there is fire.") Whenever we see smoke, we can infer the existence
of a fire. But that doesn't mean fire doesn't have other characteristics.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:27:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


shrI vaishampAyana uvAcha -

shrutvA dharmAnasheSheNa
 pAvanAni cha sarvashaH
yudhiShThiraH shAntanavaM
 punarevAbhyabhAShata || 1||

shrI vaishampAyana spoke:

Having heard all the dharma-s and the various ways which destroy the
sins and purify a person, yudhiShTra again asked the son of shantanu.

shankara's commentary:

shri vaishampAyanaH janamejayaM pratyuvAcha- dharmAn abhyuda
dayaniHshreyasotpAttihetubhUtAn chodanAlaxaNAn.h asheSheNa
kAtsnryen pAvanAni pApaxakarANi dharmarahasyAni cha sarvashaH
sarvaiH prakAraiH shrutvA yudhiShThiro dharmaputraH shAntanava.n
shantanuputra.n bhiShma.n sakalapuruShArthasAdhana.n sukasampAdhyam.h
alpa prayAsam analpaphalam.h anuktamiti kR^itvA punaH bhUya eva
abhyabhAShata prashna.n kR^itavAn.h

Brief translation:

shrI vaishampAyana replied to janamejaya - After hearing all the
dharma-s that confer good things and lead to liberation and are vedic
in purport, in its entirety, and all the secret aspects and acts of it
which destroy the sins and purify the seeker in different ways,
yudhiShtra (son dharma) again started asking the son of shantanu
(bhIShma). (why) Because he thought that the way which will bring all
the puruShArtha-s and earn joy, at the same time not difficult to
follow, but brings great results has not been told yet. Hence, he asked
again.


Some comments:

The key thing is the dharma-s as mentioned in scriptures are very
difficult to follow, even though they are certain to bring results,
they are quite complex. They have many many restrictions and rules. If
they are broken may even bring disaster. Isn't there a simple way which
all can follow? That was the intention behind yudhishTra asking again.
What was he looking for? That which is easy to do (alpa prayAsam) but
at the same time brings great result (analpa phalam) which brings
great joy (sukha sampAdyam) and all puruShartha-s.

Your comments and corrections are welcome.

Original text transliterated by shrImati Savithri Devaraj.





=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Advaita Siddhi - Translation by Ganganath Jha
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:13:59 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


I have just purchased Advaita Siddhi, translation by Ganganath Jha. However,
the book has only one chapter: Unreality, in 26 parts. Is this the complete
Advaita Siddhi ? The store owner in India did not know and this is also not
an often purchased book.

ashish

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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Visit to the Mahakumbh
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 16:31:57 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


I was in India from the 14th to the 28th of Jan. The main purpose of the
visit was a family reunion after 6 years. However, out of nowhere
materialized the visit to Prayag, and Mahakumbh.

The arena for Kalpavas (where the people stay, some for the entire period)
stretched some 40 km. I was fortunate enough to bathe on the most auspicious
day of Mauni Amavasya (24th Jan) at the Triveni Sangam. Later on, we visited
the various tents that had been erected. I saw a raas-leela nautanki in the
camp of Jagadguru Shankaracharya Swami Swarupananda Saraswati. It was in
Braj-bhasha, full of humor and thoroughly improvised. The episode was
Sudama's visit to Dwarka. I also heard a discourse by Jagadguru
Shankaracharya Swami Niranjan Dev Tirtha of Govardhan Pitha, Jagannath Puri.
We were there only for a few hours but later on, on TV, I watched a
discourse by the Mahamandaleshwar of Juna Akahada and by Jagadguru
Shankaracharya Swami Jayendra Saraswati. The whole atmosphere was
unbelievable - 30 million people in one place, not one person was robbed,
not one person was spoken a harsh word to, no women were harassed. People,
ordinary people from villages who came on tractor trolleys with all their
belongings on their heads, sat patiently listening to the discourses and
visiting saints. These indeed are the real people who nurture the spirit of
India. I saw women too old and too illiterate to even pronounce advaita,
sitting and listening with folded hands to Swami Niranjan Dev Tirtha. It was
an experience of a lifetime, that is if I don't live for the next one in 144
years!

I also visited the Ramtek temple near Nagpur and the Nilakanth Mahadev in
Rishikesh.

Incidentally, on our way back to Delhi on the 26th, I was sitting at the
airport in Allahabad waiting for our flight back when the quake actually hit
Bhuj. I felt the tremors inside the waiting lounge and ran outside. Later
on, after reaching Delhi, I found out that an earthquake had hit Gujurat.

May God bless those who have perished as well as those who have to build
their lives anew.

ashish
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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayvaram" <msr at c...>
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 17:03:57 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Our Fundamental Error - Part 2 of 11
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayvaram" <msr at c...>


A brief outline of the brahmasuutra.

The Brahmasuutra consists of four chapters; each chapter is divided into
four sections and each section is divided into topics of which there is a
total of 191 or 192 depending on how the suutra-s are divided. Most of the
topics are concerned with statements in the 10 principal upanishhad-s. The
topics are divided into suutra-s of which there is a total of 555.

Each of the four chapters is concerned with a particular theme. The first
chapter endeavours to establish that the central theme of the upanishhad-s
is Brahman. This is necessary because some of the other philosophies do not
accept this. The second chapter shows there are no contradictions in the
teaching since this would constitute a defect. There are three types of
contradiction defined - internal (i.e. the Vedic statements themselves
contradicting each other); contradiction with statements from smR^iti;
contradiction with logic. The third chapter discusses the means for
attaining Brahman, both direct and indirect (the latter covering such
aspects as ritual etc., which are merely means for purifying the mind). The
fourth chapter is about the 'fruits' of knowledge of Brahman, namely
liberation from bondage and suffering, both delayed and immediate.

Each topic consists of 5 aspects. The first is the 'subject', which is
usually an idea from one of the ten principal upanishhad-s. The second
element is the 'doubt' inherent in the subject (if there is none, there is
no need for enquiry). Thirdly, the objections and reasoning of other
philosophies are considered. Fourthly, these objections are logically
refuted and a conclusion consistent with Advaita is drawn. Finally, the
connection with the previous topic is shown.

Shankara's introduction to the bhaashhya (called adhyaasa bhaashhya) is
central to the entire advaitic philosophy, covering the explanation of the
basic errors or mistakes (adhyaasa) that we make that lead us to our belief
in a separate existence and hence to the eternal cycle (samsaara) of
suffering. Prior to discussing this, however, there is an introduction to
the use of inferential logic, since this is fundamental for understanding
the arguments of the Brahmasuutra.

A distinction is made between valid and illusory knowledge. What constitutes
a valid means of knowledge is crucial to the understanding of this subject
of adhyaasa. (Indeed, all Indian philosophies discuss epistemology before
moving on to ontological issues.) The senses are usually regarded as our
principal source of knowledge but, apart from the fact that information from
the senses is not always reliable, much of what is discussed is not directly
observable to the senses. Thus we have to be aware of the source of the
information and the types of error that can occur in using this as a means
of knowledge.

There are six accepted means of knowledge or pramaaNa. The first is direct
perception either through one of the senses or possibly imagined by the mind
(of things which are not directly present). The senses are however very
specific. For example the eyes can only detect colour and form and are
unable to hear sounds from an object. In fact, each pramaaNa has validity in
its own sphere. If something is directly perceived, inference is not needed;
if something can be inferred, the shaastra-s are not required.

The next valid means knowledge is inference from something that cannot be
directly perceived. If something cannot be seen directly, nor inferred, it
may it be reported in the scriptures or science or directly from someone who
can be trusted. For this latter means, the principal source is the Vedas.
It is believed that the Vedas were not written by humans and are thus free
from the defects associated with human authorship. Effectively they are
presumed to have been revealed to the sages, who then passed them on to
their disciples by word of mouth. Since they are heard from a teacher they
are called shruti. The three remaining means of knowledge are considered as
part of inference itself.

The Brahmasuutra relies heavily on inference and shruti as sources of
knowledge. It should be noted that the Brahmasuutra itself was written by a
human and therefore cannot itself be considered as a valid means of
knowledge. ............end of Part

>From Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan at y...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:05:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Visit to the Mahakumbh
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: Swaminarayan T <tvswaminarayan at y...>


Dewar Ashish,

On going through your post regarding your unexpected
visit to Allahabad on Mahakumb day I felt blessed! I
can imagine your satisfaction on this trip of yours
which was first hand experience for you.

Hari Om!

Swaminarayan
--- Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...> wrote:
> I was in India from the 14th to the 28th of Jan.

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 23:41:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita Siddhi - Translation by Ganganath Jha
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:13:59 -0500, Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
wrote:

>I have just purchased Advaita Siddhi, translation by Ganganath Jha.
However,
>the book has only one chapter: Unreality, in 26 parts. Is this the complete
>Advaita Siddhi ? The store owner in India did not know and this is also not
>an often purchased book.
>

The original Sanskrit version of the advaita-siddhi, edited by
Anantakrishna Sastri with notes, has four sections or parichchheda's.
The first parichchheda deals with mithyAtva and has 60 topics or
subsections. The second parichchheda deals with Brahman and has
34 topics or subsections. The third parichchheda has 8 subsections and
deals with sAdhana, mainly shravaNa-manana-nididhyAsana. The last
parichchheda has 6 subsections and deals with the phala or result
of the sAdhana.

It is clear that Prof. Jha's book is translation of a part of the
first parichchheda of the advaita siddhi. As far as I know, there is
no complete translation of the advaita-siddhi. Another partial
translation, even smaller than Prof. Jha's, is the book by
Karuna Bhattacharya. I looked at this book at the Arsha Vidya
Gurukulam book store, Saylorsburg, PA, but I found the translation
inaccurate at several places. The author herself admits that
translating the advaita-siddhi is difficult and that she has relied
on another work called the bAlabodhinI by Dr. Jogendranath Bagchi.
On a cold December morning, last year, I found this book (in 2 vols)
in the New York City Public Library. I was, however, in a hurry so I could
only briefly browse through it. As I recall, the book is written in
relatively simpler Sanskrit than the original Sanskrit of MadhusUdana.
Therefore, it is easier to understand than the advaita-siddhi as
Karuna Bhattacharya says. But even this book is only a commentary
on part of the advaita-siddhi.

Already, we have seen many distortions being spread as propaganda among
ignorant but innocent listeners.
It is important to translate such eminent works in advaita because
a time may come when very few people understand Sanskrit. In such
a situation, any person with ill-intention can easily distort what
our AchAryas said to his/her convenience or suppress what our AchAryas
really said. And such distorted explanations or lack of information
could cause havoc among the minds of the innocent people. The worst
part is that no one can really challenge the culprit(s). I hope
matters don't deteriorate to this extent, but I sincerely urge anyone
with a good grasp of Sanskrit to undertake such translation projects so
that we have an "insurance policy" against such potential

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Sat, 03 Feb 2001 20:25:57 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: shrI viShNu sahasranAma bhAShyam.h
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" wrote:

>

> dharmAn abhyudaya-niHshreyasa-utpAtti-hetu-bhUtAn

 Shankara explains that dharma is the cause ( utpatti-hetu) for both
abhyudaya ( prosperity in this world) as well as niHshreyasha ( mokshha).

>
> kAtsnryen

 This word is kArtsnyena. KR^itsnam means all, entire.
 KArtsnyam means entirety. Kartsnyena means in its entirety,
 in toto. asheshhena means without leaving a remaider. it
 indicates that yudhishhTira had already heard all the dharma-s in detail

 from Bhiishhma. Nevertheless he felt that Bhiishhma had not yet told
him of
 an easy(sukha-sampaadyam) way to achieve great results (analpa
phalam) like the
 purushhaartha-s by putting in only a little effort (alpa
prayaasam).
 So he asked Bhiishhma again.

 ---

>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: General
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:21:57 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


1. Does anyone know when the Brahamanotpattimartand was written.

2. Has anyone heard of a book in Marathi called "Jati Bhed Vichaar Saar" by
Pandoba Gopal Jee.

thanks
ashish

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 08:57:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Brahmanotpattimartand
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...> wrote:

> 1. Does anyone know when the Brahamanotpattimartand was written.

It was written by Harikrishna Shastri Venkatarama Joshi, a Gujarati
Sahasra Audichya Brahman from Aurangabad Maharashtra in Shaka
"trinandamunichandra" or 1793. (1871 AD) It is part of his encyclopediac
Brhajjyotisharnava several parts of which have been published.

> 2. Has anyone heard of a book in Marathi called "Jati Bhed Vichaar Saar"
> by Pandoba Gopal Jee.

Not me.

btw, you sent this to the egroups list. Actually that's only a mirror of
advaita-l. You should post to advaita-l at l...

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Invalidation of Destiny: Yoga Vasishtha - Mumukshu Prakarana Chapter 8 : 1-11/26
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 09:44:53 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
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From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


Vasishtha continued saying that :-

1. What does destiny mean, which has no form, nor act, no motion nor might,
but is a false notion rooted in the (minds) of the ignorant.

2. It is a word that has come into vogue from the idea of the future
retribution of one's past actions (or retributive justice) and the like,
which is designated "destinty".

3. From this the ignorant are led to belive that there is a thing as
destinty : the inscrutability of which has led them to the fallace as that
of the supposition of a snake in a rope.

4. As a past misdeed of yesterday is rectified by a good action of the
following day, let this day therefore supercede the past, and employ
yourself to-day to action.

5. The perverted understanding that believes in a destiny grounded on its
erroneous conception, may well enter into the fire from his conviction that
it will not burn him unless it is so destined.

6. If destiny is the sole cause of every thing, why then should a man betake
himself to his actions of bathing and making his offerings, sitting and
walking, all of which may be done by his destiny.

7. What then is the necessity of one's advising another to do a thing when
destiny is the director of all? Let then all be silent and say nothing to
nobody.

8. There is no one to be seen on earth that is motionless except the bodies
of the dead; and if it is action that produces anything, it is useless to
believe in destiny.

9. Nor is there any co-operative power of the invisible destiny perceptible
in the actions of men, whence it is but a meaningless word.

10. Two things as the implements and members of the body being joined
together, have each their several action; (as that of pen and razor and the
hand in writing and shaving); but the hand being wanted, nothing can be done
by destiny (with its having these tools).

11. There is no such clear idea of destiny like those of the mind and the
intellect, even in the (illiterate) cowherd or in the (learned) pandit.
Hence it is a mere non-entity.
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>From "Sridhar" <sridhar.mfc at s...>
Subject: The quake: a report from the field
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:09:37 +0530
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Dear All,

I have been a quiet member of this list for quite a while now, and have enjoyed many of the debates that I could find time to follow. This intervention has more to do with the practicalities of the earthquake, rather than its philosophical implications. 

I am a doctor working with voluntary organisations in Gujarat since nearly two decades, and was one of the thousands who went in to provide relief. I returned for a breather two days ago, and prepared a brief report for some other networks. Looking at some of the mail on this list, I thought readers here may be interested. I can send updates as they come in.

You can choose not to post this, of course.

Sridhar

------------

 
A brief report on the situation

I was in the two eastern Talukas - Bhachau and Rapar (of the four worst hit), and in the hospitals around the area for the last six days. There is no locally available food, water or shelter in most parts, and neither power nor telecommunications, and thousands of relief volunteers have braved a rather trying situation is alleviating the suffering of the affected.

The number one problem from day one, and which continues to be a major problem, is lack of effective communications - both between agencies / groups working in the area, and external. Some kind of coordination is just falling in place, perhaps too late to save lives, but may take care of intermediate term problems effectively.


What happened:
The main affected area, comprising four talukas (Bhuj, Anjar, Bhachau and Rapar) along the northern coast of the Gulf of Kutch and to the north of the Little Rann, is essentially dry, flat land with few trees or hills, and few rivers. Each of the talukas has one town of the same name, the rest being villages. Bhuj, the district HQ is the western most, and trunk road and rail lines run west to east through these towns. Gandhidham, the broadgauge railhead, is the only other town in this region, in Anjar Taluka. The quake badly damaged virtually all man made structures in this whole region, representing roughly half of the inhabited areas of Kutch district. Also badly affected were northerns parts of districts along the southern edge of the Gulf of Kutch and the Little Rann - Surendranagar, Rajkot and Jamnagar (all in the region called Saurashtra). The western half of Kutch, including Kandla port were largely spared major damage.

>From the four major towns, people not buried largely fled (some are now coming back). Most injured patients first went east looking for medical care, and finally found it in various hospitals in N Gujarat, about 200-300 km from the edge of the worst hit area. They could not access Rajkot which was closer, since the quake had damaged a crucial bridge. Effective medical help began reaching most places only 48 hrs after the quake. By then, most of the untrapped injured from even the villages had reached far flung hospitals. None of these hospitals could handle the load, which, among other factors, caused further loss of life and limb (I am putting this mildly).

It is impossible to say how many have died in the towns, and estimates range from 15% to 50% of the population (estimated by people who have been there since say day one). Older portions of Bhuj and Anjar towns crumbled to dust, and all of Bhachau and much of Rapar towns were razed to the ground in the space of two minutes. In the villages, the loss of life has been much less, well below 5%, though over 90% of houses are badly damaged in 70% of the villages. Cattle were also lost in large numbers, either because they were trapped / injured or because they fled. The total loss of human life shd not exceed 50,000. The low population density of Kutch, the timing of the quake, and the fact that a large number of people had been away from the villages looking for work (on account of ongoing drought) has kept mortality limited to about this number. 

At present, the towns are nearly deserted (except for relief workers). In the villages, many have gone away to live in the fields, making access to people more difficult.


Relief work:
This started late, and in the most crucial first 48-72 hours the relief that reached was miniscule compared to the need. As help poured in the situation improved, and relief work is now well-established in all respects but one - it has been woefully inadequate in rescuing trapped lives.
 
At least in Rapar and Bhachau, RSS has set up regular supply lines to most villages in a fairly orderly fashion, overseen by senior cadres, and has by and large been responsive to efforts to coordinate with other groups. The government machinery also seems to be finally performing, and senior officers in the field seem to have sized up the situation pretty well: they seem to have identified problems and solutions as well as one could have expected, given the enormity of the tasks. Working in tandem with RSS, and the help of the Army takes that much load off the official machinery. Many other large groups have anchored in various key places. Gaps remain, of course, which is what smaller groups are trying to fill. 

The overwhelming flood of help from outside has provided an unexpected phase of food security for this drought hit area. As of now, people generally politely refuse to take cooked food and clothing, and often even decline to accept cash.

The task of extricating the dead has just begun, and debris is being cleared in a few places. 


Health / medical problems:
The odd case of undetected / untreated trauma remains in small clusters of habitations in the fields away from main village, but the major problem is that of treated trauma: infected wounds, minor and major, and patients being discharged after surgery, having no place to go to. Post operative infections needing amputations or re-operations are far more common than in peacetime situations. Particularly cruel is the fate of the elderly who have lost supporting family members and are themselves injured - few of their neighbours seem inclined to take responsibility for their care. Common ailments happen, as at other times. So far, there have been no epidemics, for various good reasons - the population is scattered over a wide area, and there are no common sources of water and food. There is also no rain to complicate matters. It is too cold for ready transmission of malaria. Except possible focal outbreaks of dysentry (from contamination of small water pools) and viral respiratory infections, no major epidemics should happen. Newborn infants are especially at risk from the cold, but should cope if kept adequately warm. There is deep grief, but also a stoic fortitude.

 
Health services:
The greatest immediate need is for good medical care for trauma and its complications somewhere close to the homes of the injured. The government is speaking of setting up pre-fabricated fully equipped 100-bed hospitals flown in from (?) Japan in each town for this purpose. The teams from distant PHCs and voluntary groups of doctors in the field will last only a few days longer, in all probability. Efforts are on to set up effective and sustainable health care systems, at least as part of the NGO response. 


The gaps:
Commnication / coordination remains weak, and though there is probably an excess of every item needed for relief, distribution is not uniform. Some inevitable discrimination in favour of better-off areas is in evidence at places, but no systematic large-scale neglect of "minorities" has been noticed - the maldistribution is more attributable to problems of access and unfamiliarity of the relief teams with the lie of the land. The Saurashtra region remains relatively neglected, since most relief has gone to Kutch, but this is being slowly remedied. 

While immediate food-supply has been guaranteed, it will be a while before it is known which family and which village has what stock of foodgrain left. The target of most teams seems to be to provide 8-10 days of rations for the moment, and plan for a stock for 2-3 months for each family. Ensuring all families uniformly get this is going to be a huge task. Domestic storage, too, will
   pose problems.

Water in most villages comes from electric-powered deep borewells. Once power is fully restored, it will be possible to know how many borewells are damaged, and then take necessary action. At present, supply is through tankers, or as pouches. The extent of deficit will become known only over the next week.

Intermediate term needs / tasks:
Health-wise, the priority should be the care of the injured who remain in villages or have returned home. Basic physiotherapy, minimisation of disability, and then rehabilitation of thousands of remaining disabled needs to be planned for. Minimizing exposure of newborns to the cold is an ongoing important task. An effective health care system must be set up to tackle these and other health eventualities over the next few months.

Ongoing supply of foodgrain and water, lasting till after the next rains, is to be ensured. 

For NGOs, perhaps the main tasks lie in ongoing monitoring of the relief work, in identifying gaps, in helping determine how people want to be rehabilitated, at the very least. A broad coalition of NGOs is forming, which should hopefully be able to tackle these tasks. Many of these groups have been active in the JSS / PHA process.
 

The reconstruction phase
Many groups are working on this already, and the offered help from within and beyond the country is huge. One wonders if the government really needs to take big loans, and for once, it may be possible to proactively lobby for a more sensible approach. On the ground, after claims are settled (which will be a very complicated task in itself), an important conflict is likely between the need of builders to construct neatly uniform structures, and the inherent lack of uniformity in the existing social structures and people's minds. Creative, acceptable and just solutions are called for.


Help offers
No more immediate material relief needed. Gaps, as identified, will be notified from time to time. 

Most cash offers can best be put on hold till the rehab / reconstruction phase begins a few weeks from now. If necessary, organisations can collect funds, and retain them for a while.


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:59:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: Our Fundamental Error - Part 3 of 11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
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Note: forwarded message attached.


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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 01:20:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Susan Menne
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thank you for your response to my request to be added to the Advaita list. I
am a retired journalism professor and an initiate in the Vedanta Society of
St. Louis. I have visited your home page and found it most helpful. I have
also perused your archives. I'd appreciate being admitted to the list. Thank
you. Susan

>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Invalidation of Destiny: Yoga Vasishtha - Mumukshu Prakarana Chapter 8: 13-26/26
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:27:10 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


(continued)

12. If the concept of destiny be other (than that of an agent), it must mean
something else; or if it be the same thing (as the agent) why then give it a
different name (as destiny)? If it be proved to be an imaginary term, then
why not imagine your exertion to be agent (of your action)?

13. The immaterial destiny like vacuity has no connection with the material
body. If it had a form or figure it would be visible (to someone or other);
hence destiny is a nullity.

14. If destiny is the main spring of the movements of all beings in the
three worlds, then let all creatures rest at ease (with the assurance) that
destiny will perform their parts.

15. The belief that we are guided by destiny and do as we are led to do, is
a deception and an allegation (of self excuse); in fact there is no such
thing as destiny.

16. It is the fool that fancies to himself a destiny and relies on it to his
own disadvantage; while the intelligent raise themselves to better states by
means of their exertion.

17. Say who is there among the mighty and brave, the intelligent and
learned, that looks or waits upon destiny in this world.

18. Destiny may be said good, if it can have the power of saving a man from
being beheaded, whom fortune tellers had pronounced by their calculation to
be long lived.

19. Again, O Raghava, should one who is foretold by his fortune-teller to
become a learned man, attain his learning without being taught in it may we
believe fortune to be true.

20. Mark, O Rama! how the sage Vishwamitra has cast away his destiny at a
distance and attained to Brahmahood by his own exertions.

21. Look at us and others who have become sages, that it was our industry we
became aeronauts and wanderers in the etherial regions.

22. Remember, O Rama, how the cheifs of the Danava race, have established
their empires on earth by their prowess, and by discarding their destinies
altogether.

23. Look again how the chiefs of gods have wrested the extensive earth from
those demons by their valorous deeds of slaying and harassing them (in
battle).

24. See Rama! how they make handsome wicker vessels (of bamboo work) for the
holding of water by their own industry, and without the aid of any destiny
to the completion of the same.

25. In all our works of giving and receiving, walking, resting and the like,
we see no causality of destiny in their completion, as we see of medicines
(in healing diseases).

26. Therefore O Rama, give up this destiny of your mistaken fancy which is
in reality devoid of its cause or effect, and is a false and ideal nullity;
and betake yourself to your best exertions.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:12:27 -0500
Subject: panchAnga element - sunrise
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


In the previous post, we saw how to calculate the panchAnga element
vAra. There is however one more consideration in calculating vAra
and this requires that we know the sunrise at the location where
we need the vAra element. This is because the Hindu day does NOT
begin at 12 Midnight and end on the next midnight, as it does in
the West. The Hindu day begins at sunrise and ends at the next
sunrise. This changes the way we should calculate the vAra element,
requiring us to specify the time of day when the vAra must be
computed. If the given time of day is before sunrise, then the
vAra will still be the previous one, even though according to the
Gregorian calendar (western), the date and day of week have changed.

For example, today (2/7/01) at 9 AM in New York, the vAra was Wednesday.
However, for the same location, at 5:30 AM, the vAra was still
technically Tuesday, because the sun did not rise until about
7 AM. In other places, the sun could have risen at different
local times. Therefore, we see that the beginning and ending of a
vAra depends on the location for which we are computing the panchAnga.

Since it is necessary to compute the sunrise to find out the vAra,
many panchAngas do specify a table of sunrise (and sunset) along with
the standard information. But the table is only good, usually, for the
place where the panchAnga was prepared. The sunrise information is
also important for many other matters, such as observances and festivals.


Now, to compute the sunrise itself, it takes a little bit of
understanding of spherical astronomy or spherical trigonometry.
(See http://star-www.st-and.ac.uk/~fv/webnotes/index.html for
a good introduction).
Those interested may find many web sites that provide a
sunrise calculator. Some even given you a method for calculating
the sunrise at your favorite place yourself. One such site is:

http://www.moonstick.com/sunriseset.htm

Usually, the method of calculating sunrises is an iterative
one. This is because the sun apparently moves in the zodiac
with respect to the earth. We first calculate the approximate
sunrise, assuming the position of the sun to be fixed with respect
to the earth and. Then we "plug in" the approximate time of sunrise
into our algorithm again to get a more accurate time.

The algorithm is based on the fact that there is a relationship
between the Hour angle and right ascension and the Local sidereal
time (LST = right ascension + Hour angle) of any celestial body, the
sun in this case.
Further, the Hour angle, H is itself found by:

cos(H) = (sin(altitude) - sin(delta) * sin(phi))/ (cos(delta) *
 cos(phi))

where altitude is taken as 50 arc minutes (36 minutes to account
for refraction and 16 for the Sun's semidiameter), delta is the
Sun's declination, and phi is the latitude of the location.

And the right ascension, alpha is given by

alpha = arctan(0.91746 * tan (L)) where L is the celestial longitude
 of the sun.

and delta, the declination of the sun is given by:

 delta = arcsin(0.39782* sin (L))

Once we have the Hour angle, H and right ascension alpha, we
get the Local sidereal time. This can be converted to the
Local Mean time and from the Local Mean time we get the
Universal Time (Greenwich Mean time, GMT, roughly) by subtracting
the longitude (converted in terms of hours). To this GMT,
 we add the time zone difference with respect to GMT at the
given location. And at last we have the sunrise time. This
needs to go through an iterative process to get a better approximation.

Here is a program that correctly calculates the vAra
by considering the sunrise. You should know the time zone difference
wrt to GMT (for example, EST in the US is -5.0 , CST is -6.0,etc.)
You should also know the correct latitude and longitude of the place
where the sunrise and vAra are being computed.

/* File: sUryodaya.c
** Example showing how to compute sunrise and vAra.
*/


#include <stdio.h>
#include <math.h>
#define PI 3.14159265359

unsigned long date_to_julian(unsigned short,unsigned short, unsigned short);

char *weekdays[] = {
 "Sunday", "Monday", "Tuesday", "Wednesday",
 "Thursday", "Friday", "Saturday"};
main()
{
 unsigned short month,day,year;
 unsigned long julian_day, julian_day0;
 unsigned short week_day,i;
 double d,M,L,phi,Lg,delta,alpha,cos_H,H,LMT,UT;
 double UTRI=0.0,time_of_day,time_zone,sunrise_local_time;

 printf("Enter month day year: ");
 scanf("%hu%hu%hu",&month,&day,&year);
 julian_day = date_to_julian(month,day,year);
 printf("The julian day number is %lu\n",julian_day);
 printf("Enter time of day in hours\n");
 scanf("%lf", &time_of_day);
 printf("Enter time zone (+/- number of hours from GMT) \n");
 scanf("%lf", &time_zone);
 week_day = ((julian_day) % 7 + 1) % 7;
 printf("weekday (Gregorian) = %s\n", weekdays[week_day]);
 julian_day0 = date_to_julian(1,0,year);
 printf("Day number wihin year = %ld\n", (julian_day - julian_day0));
 printf("Enter Latitude Longitude \n");
 scanf("%lf %lf",&phi,&Lg);
 UTRI = 0.0;
 for (i = 0; i<2; i++) {
 d = julian_day - julian_day0 + UTRI/24.0;
 M = 0.985600*d - 3.289;
 while (M > 360.0) M -= 360.0;
 L = M + 1.916*sin(M*PI/180.0) + 0.020*sin(2*M*PI/180.0)
 + 282.634;
 while (L > 360.0) L -= 360.0;
 alpha = atan(0.91746*tan(PI*L/180.0));
 delta = asin( 0.39782*sin(L*PI/180.0));
 cos_H = (sin(-(5/6.0) *PI/180.0) - sin(delta) *
 sin(phi*PI/180.0))/
 (cos(delta) * cos(phi*PI/180.0));
 H = acos(cos_H);
 H = 2 * PI - H;
 LMT = (H*180.0/PI)/15 + (alpha*180/PI)/15 -
 0.065710*d - 6.622;
 while (LMT < 0.0) LMT += 24.0;
 UTRI = LMT - Lg/15;
 while (UTRI > 24.0) UTRI -= 24.0;
 sunrise_local_time = UTRI + time_zone;
 printf("Sunrise (iteration %d) is %lf\n",
 i,sunrise_local_time);
 }
 if (time_of_day < sunrise_local_time) {
 week_day = ((julian_day-1) % 7 + 1) % 7;
 }
 printf("vAra = %s\n", weekdays[week_day]);
}

/*Function to compute Julian Day Number from Gregorian calendar date
**This function is valid on or after Sept. 14, 1752 only
**because Gregorian calendar was started from that date.
**Parameters:
** month: month expressed as number between 1 and 12
** day: day number within the month (first parameter)
** year: Year number.
** Note: Use four digit year numbers, not two digit numbers
** For example, use 1967 and not 67.
*/

unsigned long date_to_julian(unsigned short month, unsigned short day,
unsigned
short year)
{
 unsigned long cent, year_a;
 if (month > 2)
 month -= 3;
 else {
 month += 9;
 year--;
 } /* else */
 cent = year / 100;
 year_a = year - 100*cent;
 return (((146097*cent)>>2) + ((1461*year_a)>>2) +
 (153*month + 2)/5 + day + 1721119);
}

Compiling the program:

$ cc -o sUryodaya sUryodaya.c -lm

Run the program with location specified as New York City. Note that
the time of day is specified as 9 AM which comes after sunrise.
Therefore the vAra coincides with the Gregorian weekday as
Wednesday.

$ sUryodaya
Enter month day year: 2 7 2001
The julian day number is 2451948
Enter time of day in hours
9.0
Enter time zone (+/- number of hours from GMT)
-5.0
weekday (Gregorian) = Wednesday
Day number wihin year = 38
Enter Latitude Longitude
40.75 -74
Sunrise (iteration 0) is 7.011616
Sunrise (iteration 1) is 7.002284
vAra = Wednesday

Next, run the program for the same location but with the time of
day specified as 5:30 AM, ie. before sunrise. The vAra, in this
case is still Tuesday (bhauma-vAsara), although the Gregorian
weekday is Wednesday.

$ sUryodaya
Enter month day year: 2 7 2001
The julian day number is 2451948
Enter time of day in hours
5.5
Enter time zone (+/- number of hours from GMT)
-5.0
weekday (Gregorian) = Wednesday
Day number wihin year = 38
Enter Latitude Longitude
40.75 -74
Sunrise (iteration 0) is 7.011616
Sunrise (iteration 1) is 7.002284
vAra =

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:35:20 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-3-1A
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



 Notes on BSB I-i-3-1A

 sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
 asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 shaastrayoni adhikaraNam -3
 suutra 1: shaastrayonitvaat

The third suutra is shhastrayonitvaat. - This belongs to third
adhikaraNam , which again has only one suutra. This suutra will be
interpreted in two different ways. It is the glory of a suutra to
have the possibility of more than one interpretation (see sutra
definition in Ch. 1 that discussed about vishvatomukhatvam , and this
suutra is an example for that. We will first study the first
interpretation and come back and study the second interpretation.
The general analysis, the word by word analysis and the conclusion of
the suutra, for each interpretation, follow:

1. General analysis.

The essence of this suutra is that it confirms the omniscience of
Brahman which is directly revealed in the second suutra , brahma
sarvaj~natvam dR^iDhayati. The second suutra said Brahman is the
sarva kaaraNam or jagat kaaraNam. Since sarvasya kartaa sarvaj~naH,
it indirectly implied that Brahman is sarvaj~naH or omniscient. This
omniscience is derived because of the nimitta kaaraNam or intelligent
cause of the jagat (rather than upaadaana kaaraNam - see discussion
related to suutra 2.) Vyasacharya confirms the omniscience of
Brahman in the third suutra by pointing out that Brahman is the
creator of the Veda-s also. shaastra yoni means Veda kartaa, the
creator of Veda-s. kartaa means here the nimitta kaaraNam, the
intelligent cause. In the second suutra, Brahman is described as the
nimitta kaaraNa of the entire world and in this suutra it points he
is the nimitta kaaraNam of all the Veda-s which includes all the
knowledge. One can say in the second suutra, nimitta kaaraNam of
artha prapa~ncha is pointed out and here the nimitta kaaraNam of
shabda prapa~ncha, veda-shabdaanaam api kartaa, is pointed. How does
this reveal the omniscience of Brahman? Shankara says Veda contains
all knowledge, both paraa and aparaa vidyaa , ephemeral as well as
transcendental knowledge. There is no branch of science, which is
not discussed in the Veda. Veda-s that are known today considered as
insignificant in relation to what was there before. Much was lost.
It was said that Sama Veda had 1000 shaakhaa -s or branches of which
very few are remaining now. Many branches of Veda are known to be
extinct now. Even from Shankara's time to now, in the span of 1300
years many portions are lost, since we cannot find Vedic source of
some of the quotes of Shankara. Hence Shankara says vedaH
sarvaj~naH. From this Shankara makes a logical statement or vyaapti.
That is, the author of a text invariably knows more than the contents
of the text. This is because one can never express everything one
knows in verbal form in one's authored text. Hence the inference is
brahma sarvaj~nam, sarvaj~nkalpa veda kartR^itvaat, vyatirekeNa asmad
aadivat ! Brahman is omniscient, since He is the author of the Veda
that have all knowledge, unlike all of us! (since there is no like
example!)

An incidental point to be made for technical reason. It is accepted
by Vedantins that Veda-s are anaadi and apaurushheyam , not created
by anyone. If Veda-s are not created by any one intellect then how
can one say that Brahman has created these Veda-s. This is not a
contradiction since when we say Brahman created Veda-s it does means
Brahman has intellectually invented veda-s, like Valmiki writing
Ramayana. This knowledge was already there in a potential form.
Brahman only brought the teaching to manifestation, like the
creation. The world was existing in potential form and creation is
only manifestation of that existing in a potential form - avyaakR^ita
prapa~nchasya vyaakaraNam sR^ishhTiH . Similarly the Vedic
knowledge, it was anaadi, or beginningless. It was in potential form
in Brahman itself. In this aspect, Vedanta differs from nyaaya
system of philosophy, which states Bhagavaan created the Veda-s.

vishhaya vaakyam for this suutra: The vishhaya vaakyam is from
Brihadaranyaka 2-4-10 in maitreyii braahmaNam . In this particular
mantra Brahman is said to be creator of not just the world but Veda-s
also: sa yathaa aardra edhaagneH abhyaahitaat pR^ithak dhuumaaH
vinishcharanti evam vaa are asya mahataH bhuutasya niHshvasitam etat
yat R^igvedaH, yajurVedaH, saamavedaH, atharvaa~NgirasaH, itihaasaH
...etc. When a wet fuel is burned the smoke comes out effortlessly
and listen Oh! Maitreyii! it is like breathing out - niHshvaasaH that
is effortlessly (niHshvasita nyaaya or liila nyaayaH - effortlessly
like breathing or play) Breathing occurs naturally even when we are
engaged actively in other actions and we not even aware that we are
breathing. Hence it is said the creation of all veda-s R^ig, yajur,
saama and atharvaNa etc. are done effortlessly by Bhagavan. This is
symbolized by Lord Vishnu lying as vaTapatra shaayee - breathing in
and breathing out the whole universe - unmanifestation to
manifestation. Based on the above mantra Vyasacharya writes -
shaastrayonitvaat.

Next the word analysis:

There is one compound word shaastrayonitvaat - shaastra yoni -
shaastra means Veda. The entire Veda is called shaastra. shaasanaat
traayate iti shaastram - the teachings and commandments (such as
satyam vada, dharmam chara etc - all are in imperative mood). The
commands are mostly in the puurva bhaaga in the first portions where
do-s and don't-s are discussed. In the end portion of the Veda-s the
shaasanam implies the revelations - the statement of facts - the fact
is you are Brahman - it is one thing that one does not have to work
for - svataH siddham - an accomplished fact. In our whole life we
strive for moksha and shaastra comes and tells us that this is one
thing you do not have to strive for in life! When shaastra says
'You are Free" - what commandment is there? - it is just a statement
of fact. Thus through these two - commandments in the karma kaanDa
and revelations of facts in j~naanakaaDa shaastra does is traayate,
protects people from sa.nsaara. The second word is yoni - it has
several meanings and in this context it means nimitta kaaraNam,
author or creator of the Veda-s.

With this the word analysis is also over.

Now conclusion:

In this we discuss the five aspects associated with an adhikaraNam.

1. vishhayaH or subject matter - the subject matter for this
adhikaraNam is also Brahman.

2. sa.nshayaH or doubt - the doubt is whether Brahman is the author
of Veda-s too or not.

3 puurvapaksha - Brahman is not the author of the Vedas- why? -
vedasya anaaditvaat - since veda-s are beginningless. Whatever is
created has an end - Veda-s are eternal - vedasya nityatvaat, anaadi
nidhanaa vaak - Hence it is not created.

4 siddhaanta - Even though Veda is anaadi or beginningless, we
discuss the beginning of Veda as a state of manifestation and
unmanifestation exactly like the world. The whole Veda in
unmanifested state is considered as just the o~Nkaara. Hence OM is
considered as the essence of Veda. yaH chhandasaam R^ishhabhaH
vishvaruupaH | chhandobhyaH adhyamR^itaat sambabhuuva | saH maa
indraH
   medhayaa spR^iNotu | - .. T.U. 1-4
By churning the Veda-s Brahmaji took the essence of veda-s and that
is the OM -kaaraH. The OM -kaara was there as shabda in the
aakaasha or space in the very beginning of the creation. (In the
beginning was the word). If OM is the essence of Veda-s, Brahman is
the essence of OM - OM iti ekaaksharam brahma. Manifestation from
unmanifest is considered as creation and hence there is nothing wrong
in saying that Brahman is the creator of the Veda-s since He is the
cause for its manifestation.

5. sa~NgatiH - the connection is said to be aakshepa sa~NgatiH,
meaning this adhikaraNam answers an objection raised particularly by
puurvamiimaa.nsaka based on the previous adhikaraNam. In the
previous adhikaraNam Brahman is said to be sarva kaaraNam. The
objection that one can accept Brahman is the kaaraNam for everything
except the Veda-s since Veda is anaadi. In this suutra the aakshepa
is answered with the emphasis that Brahman is sarva kaaraNam
including Veda. Hence that Brahman is sarvaj~nam or omniscient is
established through this suutra.

This completes the first interpretation of the suutra.
End of Notes on BSB I-i-3-1A

Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:55:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Sachin Chavan
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Hi,

I am pleasantly surprised to see that your email addresses reveal some of
you work for some leading companies in the world.

Let me tell some thing about myself:

Name: Sachin Chavan

Job: Manager at world's largest management consulting firm, Accenture
(previously called Andersen Consulting)
Location: Based in Mumbai, move around Asia

Education: BTech (Chemical engineering, IIT Mumbai)
 Post Graduate Diploma in Management

Interests: Trekking, reading nonfiction and religious texts, meditation

Interest in Advaita: I am charmed by the Nirvanashataka of Sri
Shankaracharya, which I think is the best way to explain what one is (and
what one is not). It encapsulates Advaita, which I believe comes closest
to my intuitive understanding of the world and hence appeals me the most.
Not that I have given up idol worship though, since I am still a long way
from understanding the ultimate truth and living without the confidence
which idol worship gives to one. I think we are all at various stages in
our pursuit of truth (as are the Jains, Buddhists, etc. etc., ones whom you
call Nastika, which I quite fail to understand).

By registerng to the mailing list, I would like to learn more about advaita
from you gentlemen and try and map it in my personal life and working life
(as a management consultant). Sometime in future, I hope to draw
correlations between management philosophies and spiritual philosophies,
particularly

>From Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:11:15 -0330 (NST)
Subject: Re: [advaitin] Notes on BSB I-i-3-1A
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>


namaste.

I am enjoying shri Sadananda garu's presentations very much.

For the previous sUtra, I expressed my reservation in using
the word 'definition' in the context of brahman. At the
risk of being branded an unnecessary interventionist, and
with apologies for this intervention, let me express my
reservation with word 'written' used in the context of
the vedA-s.

I put forward my understanding of this sUtrA with two
meanings and my preference for the first meaning.

1.
shAstrayonitvAt: That from which the vedA-s have evolved.
Here the word yoni is used. Yoni in sanskrit also means
the female regenerative organ. A baby before evolution is
part of the mother and the baby evolves out of the mother.
The vedA-s have evolved out of brahman. The vedA-s are not
written texts. VedA-s are the sounds. Once we use the word
'written' in the context of this sUtra, we are getting into
the wrong track of discussion. VedA-s are the sounds. The
R^iShis had a vision of Truth and they expressed in sounds
what they have envisioned. And these sounds are the vedA-s.
Thus the vedA-s are a direct evolution from brahman,
consistent with the usage of the word yoni here.

I think that we should not use the word 'written' in the
context of this sUtrA because firstly the vedA-s are not
written texts and secondly 'written' implies someone (human)
has written them which is not the case. Even looking at the
vedA-s as direct revelation is also, in my view, not a
completely correct representation. The R^iShis had a vision
of the Truth and they explained that vision in certain sounds
and these sounds are the vedA-s.

Or alternately,

2. This sUtra can also be interpreted as : The vedA-s being
the right source of knowledge, i.e., we will have the (right)
knowledge of brahman only from the vedA-s.

Shri Sadananda garu, I am sure, will be expanding on this
meaning also, probably in the next or future presentation.

Once again, my apologies for this intervention.


Regards
Gummuluru

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:29:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: Name 3 - Tripurari
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Tripurari -- The Enemy Of The Three Cities.

The three sons of Tarakasura who were called Taraksha, Kamalaksha, and
Vidyunmalin, obtained a boon from Brahmaji by virtue of their arduous tapa
that they would posess three indestructible flying cities, one of gold,
one of silver, and the thrd of iron. They used these cities to terrorize
the worlds. They also asked for the boon of immortality for themselves
and their demonic army. But all things that are born must die. Even the
mighty Devas for whom even the longest human life seems like the blink of
an eye, have a similiarly short lifespan on the scale of Brahman. So they
were denied that wish. Instead they asked "let us only be killed by
Mahadeva." They knew Shankara Bhagawan was ever immersed in dhyana and
would not be a threat to them. For a thousand years the Asuras continued
their terrible reign and because of the boons the Devas were unable to do
anything about it. Weeping and lamenting they went to Mount Kailasa to
the abode of Lord Shiva. One name of Shiva Bhagawan is Rudra - one who
crys or howls. Because he is always indignant at adharma in the world.
He is also called Ashutosha - He who wipes away tears because He is always
ready to comfort His bhaktas. Seeing the distress of the Devas and Rshis
and the wicked acts of the Asuras, He roused Himself from his yoga and
prepared for battle. As he strung his arrow, the three cities came
together and with one shot he pierced and destroyed them all .

The three cities are the three gunas - sattva, rajas, and tamas. Brahman
is nirguna, beyond even sattva. The pauranika katha emphasizes this even
more when it mentions the three cities were built by Maya (personified as
the architect of the Asuras.)

One of the most important nams of Mataji is Tripura, or Tripurasundari. I
would like to know what connection that has with this story.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:05:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Rajayoga - Layayoga
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


>> Can someone explain the difference between Rajayoga and Layayoga? So far,
>> Layayoga seems to be very similar to Rajayoga, but with a more detailed
>> emphasis on the Chakras.
>>
>
>Since you wrote this mail I've been looking around to see if I can find
>out anything about this laya yoga and I've not come up wth anything. Are
>you sure you're author is not just making it up?

I'm sorry I missed the earlier posting by Gregg Bell.

Goswami's book on Layayoga is quite informative, but there
are certain specific issues that he does not address. Perhaps
because not everything is disclosed in such books.

Layayoga originates historically in the Advaita Vedantic
tradition. Rajayoga is the name given to the Patanjala Yoga
system. There are many areas of overlap, in technique, but
in terms of the underlying philosophies, there are certain
points of difference.

Usually, Patanjala Yoga is allied to Samkhya. Here, manas,
the mind, is an evolute of material Prak.rti. The Purusha
stands separate from Prak.rti, and tries to achieve control
over Prak.rti, by achieving control of the mind. Ultimately,
there are two irreducible principles opposed to one another,
Purusha and Prak.rti.

In Layayoga, following the Vedantic tradition, there is a
process of merging (laya or vilaya) an outer layer of physical
reality into an inner layer, successively. In the meditative
practice, all the objects of the senses are realized to be
representations within the mind, and are therefore conceptually
merged into the mind. The mind is then conceptually merged into
the intellect, and finally, the intellect into the Self.

There is quite an involved discussion of this in Sankara's Gita
commentary, chapter 6. There is a verse in this chapter, that
says, aatma-sa.mstha.m mana.h k.rtvaa na ki.mcid api cintayet.
This is related to the meditation on Om, as described in Mandukya
Upanishad and the Karikas (omkaara.m paadazo jnaatvaa na ki.mcid
api cintayet). Here, the sound a represents all gross material
reality, which is merged into the sound u, which represents all
mental conceptualization, which is then merged into m, which
represents the ignorance. The whole sound gets merged into a
single sound of Om, and from there into silence, which is the
real Atman.

Similar descriptions of meditation on Om are found in Sankara's
Pancikarana and its Varttika by Suresvara (cidaatmani viliina.m
cet tac cittam naiva caalayet).

So also in the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad commentary, where the verb
used to indicate this merging is praliiyate - vijnaanamaatra.m
bhuutvaa parasmin prajnaanaghane praliiyate. Manasollasa, the
commentary by Suresvara on the Dakshinamurti Ashtaka, also has a
few relevant descriptions.

>From another perspective, this Layayoga is also related to the
descriptions of the various naa.dii-s in the body. Cf the verse
in the ka.tha and chaandogya upanishads -

zata.m caikaa ca h.rdayasya naa.dyas
taasaam muurdhaanam abhini.hs.rtaikaa |
tayordhvam aayann am.rtatvam eti
vi.sva:n:n anyaa utkrama.ne bhavanti ||

Best

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:38:18 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: Name 3 - Tripurari
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> Tripurari -- The Enemy Of The Three Cities.

> One of the most important nams of Mataji is Tripura, or Tripurasundari. I
> would like to know what connection that has with this story.

 Tripuraari is also referred to as puraari, purahara, and just tripura.
 Tripurasundari means the wife of tripuraari.

Tripurasundari ashhtakam (composed by Shankaracaarya) refers to Her as
trilocana-kutumbiniim tripurasundariim aashraye [ I take refuge in
tripurasundarii
who is the spouse of the three-eyed one]

Soundarya lahari (verse 7) calls her pura-mathitu-raho purushikaa [the I-ness
of
the one who destroyed the pura-s].

The word Tripura itself has been taken to mean any of the triads.
The story of the destruction of the three pura-s is mentioned in shivaananda
lahari
(verse 3 ). There , tripurahara has been interpreted as one who destroys
the sthuula, suukshhma, and kaaraNa shariira-s. and gives videha mukti.

Lalitaa sahasranaama lists a number of names like
tripureshii , tripuraambikaa, tripuramaalini, mahaa-tripura sundarii,etc
In all these cases, the word tripura is interpreted in terms of Her being
mother of
different triads like jagrat-svapna- sushupti ;
bhuloka-bhuvarloka-suvarloka;
knower-known-knowledge ; and so on. Shri Gummuluru Murty ,being a lalitaa
upaasaka , will be able to explain them better than I can.

Regards.
V.M.Sundaram

>
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:21:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, V.M.Sundaram wrote:

> I have heard this story. But have not understood its esoteric
> meaning. There should be an inner meaning to saying that Brahmaaji,
> who is recognized as one of the Trinity, "told a lie." Can some
> member of the group explain the significance of this incident ?
>

I was talking to my father and he reminded me of a detail I had ommitted.
As Brahmaji searches upwards, he sees a falling lotus. He thinks it must
have been placed atop the lingam so He is near the top.

So it was incorrect of me to say He "lied" but He did jump to conclusions.

Compare also the Vaishnava-oriented version of why He is not worshipped.
At the srshti, in order to create the worlds created Narada from the power
of his mind and asked him to perform creation. But from the beginning,
Naradaji was engrossed in Vishnubhakti and he refused to take part in the
creation of samsara which would estrange living creatures from the
experience of Bhagawan. Brahmaji cursed him to eternally wander the
worlds and Naradji in return cursed him to not be worshipped anymore.

In both these accounts, it seems Brahmajis sin is short-sightedness. He
assumes the infinite is finite and the phenomenal world is all there is
and that makes Him unsuitable to be the object of our devotions.

> I beleive that he is worshipped in Thailand, and
> some
> other countries
> of south- east asia.
>

I've heard that the word Burma comes from Brahma.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From owner-advaita-l at L...
Reply-To: 
Subject: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:49:05 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: owner-advaita-l at L...


Dear fellows,

I am new to the list and all the communication I have seen over the past
few days (including the ones on the 11 names of Shiva, the deity) make me
wonder:

"What is advaita?"

I always felt it is a + dvaita.

That means non-duality. In other words, belief in the fact that the whole
world is nothing but manifestations of the same spirt/power. Which for
simplicity is called "Shiva". Shiva here, means purity.

Would not confusing "Shiva" with the deity Shankar be against the spirit of
Advaita? How does it matter how many names the deity had? For that matter
how is the power in that deity different from the power in you, me or say
Atal Behari Vajpayee (to name one pure current leader)? I think the only
difference is the intensity of the power and our awareness of it

If Shiva is a deity, so were there 36 crore other. What would one achieve
by remembering all their names? Will one achieve moksha? Should we not
rather discuss how one can increase one's awareness of the energy which is
common and how to improve ones awareness and make oneself more pure (or
Shiva).

What do you learned people feel about this? Please enlighten!

Namastubhayam
Sachin

This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other
use of the email by you is

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:30:14 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-3-1B
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 Notes on BSB I-i-3-1B

 sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
 asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who is
ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all the
way up to my own teacher.

 vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
 aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
 shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
 sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada - i
 shaastrayoni adhikaraNam - 3
 suutra : shaastrayonitvaat

The second interpretation of the suutra: Let us assume that we are
studying the suutra once again as fresh - As before we will follow
the general analysis, the word analysis and the conclusion.

General Analysis:

In the second suutra Brahman is defined as jagat kaaraNam , the cause
of the universe. We called it as a brahma lakshaNa suutram. We
established before that (1) we need a pramaaNam along with lakshaNam
to establish Brahman,(2) the second suutra does provide only a
lakshaNam and not an anumaana pramaaNa as claimed by nayyayika -s and
finally Veda-s alone can provide the shabda pramaaNam to establish
Brahman. This idea is conveyed by this suutra. The general meaning
of the suutra - shaastra yonitvaat means shaastra vishhayatvaat -It
means the Brahman is the subject matter of Vedanta alone as it is
beyond the scope of logic. This can be stated as - brahma na
anumaana vishhayaH, shaastra vishayatvaat , dharmavat that is Brahman
cannot be the subject matter of the logic, it is the subject matter
of shaastra alone which is apaurushheyam , like puNyam or merits. In
the first interpretation Vyasa states that Brahman sarvaj~nam ,
shaastra kart^Ritvaat . In the second interpretation Vyasa states
that Brahman na anumaana gamyam , shaastra vishayatvaat . yoni means
source and in the first interpretation it is the source (author) of
Vedas and in the second interpretation it is source for knowledge of
Brahman.

vishhaya vaakyam for the suutra :

It is again from bR^ihadaaraNyaka from shaakalya braahmanam (debate
between yaaj~nvalkya and shaakalya) and is the basis for this second
interpretation- tantu aupanishhadam purusham pR^ichchhaami - Here the
word purushha means Brahman - After yaaj~nvalkya successfully
answering all the questions of shaakalya, yaaj~nvalkya asks shaakalya
a counter question about nirguNa brahman which is only known through
neti, neti, not this, not this. In that context the above statement
is made where aupanishhadam purushham means upanishhad eka vedyam
brahman , that Brahman which can be known only through upanishhads.
Also in shaanti paaTha we chant - sarvam brahmopanishhadam - Brahman
that includes everything is to be known through upanishads, thus
providing additional reference as vishhaya vaakyam. We chant the
shaanti paaTha (saama veda eg kena & chhaandogya upan.) as

 sarvam brahmaopanishadam maaham brahma niraakuryaam |
 maa maa brahma niraakarot |
 aniraakaraNamastu aniraakaraNam me astu |
 tadaatmani nirate ya upanishatsu dharmaaste mayi santu |

Because Brahman is not available as an object for analysis or can be
established by anumaana, let me not reject Brahman. Let me accept
the shaastram and through the shaastram let me know Brahman.

Now the word analysis.

shaastra has the same meaning as veda or vedaanta and yoni means
source of knowledge or pramaaNam . Grammatical difference is also
there between the two meanings. In the first interpretation it is
tatpurusha samaasa or compound - shaastrasya yoniH kartaa brahma ,
Brahman is the author of shaaastra. In the second interpretation it
is bahuvriihi samaasa or compound - shaastram yoniH pramaaNam yasya
tat , shaastram is the means of knowledge of that which is Brahman.

( A little digression: To see the difference between the tatpurusha
and bahuvriihi samaasa - a story is told - an intelligent beggar
approached a king and said - aham cha tvam cha raajendra lokanaathau
ubhaavapi | bahuuvriihi samaaso.aham shhashhTii tatpurusho bhavaan ||
Oh! King, myself and your self, both are lokanaatha -s
(world-masters) - before the King become furious, the beggar
continued, in my case the word lokanaatha should be split into
bahuvriihi samaasa and in your case it should be tatpurusha samaasa.
In the tatpurusha samaasa lokanaatha means lokasya naathaH - the
master of the world. In the case of bahuvriihi samaasa, lokanaatha
means lokaH naathaH yasya saH lokanathaH - the one for whom the world
is the master. Similar story is told about rameshwara linga - the
linga that Rama worshiped. Rama interprets as tatpurusha that is
raamasya iishwaraH, the Lord of Rama; and Shiva interprets as
bahuuvriihi samaasa that is raamaH iishwaraH yasya saH, the one for
whom Rama is the Lord.)

In bahuvriihi samaasa, shaastra yoni means shaastra pramaaNakam or
shaastra vedyam which implies that it is shaastraa vishhayaH ,
brahman - Brahman is the subject matter of shaastram. Hence it is
not available for anumnaana pramaaNam.

Conclusion:

vishhayaH - subject matter is still chetana kaaraNam brahman .

sa.nshayaH - doubt - Is Brahman knowable through anumaaNam or not -
anumaana vishhayam vaa , na , - can consciousness be studied
objectively by a scientist.

puurvapaksha - brahma anumaana vishhayaH - it is within the scope of
objective science - jagat kaaraNatvaat, ghaTa kaaraNabhuuta mR^idvat
. The cause for the world just as the clay is the cause of a pot.

siddhanta - brahma na anumaana vishhayaH - Brahman is not subject of
anumamaana because it is shaastra vishhayatvaat , because it can be
known through shaastra alone. Hence we have a definition for veda
(given by Sayanacharya),

 pratyaksheNaanu mithyaiva yas tu upaayena budhyate|
 yenam vindati vedena tasmaat vedasya vedataa ||

Veda means that which gives the knowledge of such a subject matter
which is not available for any other means of knowledge such as
pratyaksha, anumaana, anupalabdhi, upamaana, arthaapatti.

sa~NgatiH : Connection between this and the previous adhikaraNam. The
connection between these two is technically called - eka phala
kartavya sa~NgatiH. both adhikaraNam -s have a common goal or
benefit - it is brahma siddhiH - Existence of Brahman is to be
proved before proper inquiry is done. We have said already that to
prove existence of any thing, we need lakshaNam and pramaaNam . The
second adhikaraNa gives lakshaNam and this adhikaraNam gives
pramaaNam.

In summary connecting all the three adhikaraNam -s we can say that
jagat kaaraNam brahma j~naanartham vedaanta pramaaNena vichaaraH
kartavyaH | - Brahman, who is the cause for the world, is to be
inquired into using vedaanta pramaaNa.

With this third suutra / third adhikaraNam is over.
----------------
We will take up next the suutra # 4 which happens to be the fourth
adhikaraNa also.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:35:03 -0500
Subject: Re: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:49:05 +0530, Sachin Chavan
<sachin.chavan at A...> wrote:

>Dear fellows,
>
>I am new to the list and all the communication I have seen over the past
>few days (including the ones on the 11 names of Shiva, the deity) make me
>wonder:
>
>"What is advaita?"
>
>I always felt it is a + dvaita.
>
>That means non-duality. In other words, belief in the fact that the whole
>world is nothing but manifestations of the same spirt/power. Which for
>simplicity is called "Shiva". Shiva here, means purity.
>
>Would not confusing "Shiva" with the deity Shankar be against the spirit of
>Advaita? How does it matter how many names the deity had? For that matter
>how is the power in that deity different from the power in you, me or say
>Atal Behari Vajpayee (to name one pure current leader)? I think the only
>difference is the intensity of the power and our awareness of it
>
>If Shiva is a deity, so were there 36 crore other. What would one achieve
>by remembering all their names? Will one achieve moksha? Should we not
>rather discuss how one can increase one's awareness of the energy which is
>common and how to improve ones awareness and make oneself more pure (or
>Shiva).


Welcome to the list. First, it is difficult to have a good picture of
what the list discusses by taking a snapshot of only a few days. There
is a large amount of material out there in the archives. Also, we seem
to have a paucity of members willing to come forward and start
discussions. Most of the discussion (if you consider long periods of time)
takes place among a few frequent posters and so it is the agenda of these
frequent posters that takes center stage. Perhaps we need some kind of
modern motivational therapy here :-).

Second, on a more serious and philosophical level, what is the world
apart from names and forms (nAmarUpa)? Everthing that we perceive or think
of can be captured in names and forms. By form I mean some representation
that an organ (indriya) can grasp. In order to realize what advaita
teaches, we must go beyond this world of names and forms. But how can
we do this even while within the world of names and forms? The answer
is that the key to become free from names and forms is within names
and forms. This seems to be an absurd statement until we understand
that the certain names and forms are of a special kind that help us
go beyond names and forms. It is like medicine for indigestion. When a
person is suffering from indigestion, commonsense dictates that the
person should avoid consuming anything. But sometimes the case of
indigestion is so bad that the person has to be given some medicine.
At that point, do we ask, "How can indigestion be cured by intake of
anything?" Even though the medicine is consumed with the same organs
that consume food, internally the medicine works wonders and cures
one of indigestion.

Similarly, in the case of being entangled in the world of names and
forms, there are certain special names and forms that we can be
associated with to help us free ourselves from names and forms.

We should also remember advaita is based on the shruti (Vedas) which
is nothing but collections of words. advaita holds that realization
occurs by means of VedAnta-vAkyas. The mahAvAkyas, for example
"tattvamasi", are words. But we need to understand the significance
of these words. Similarly, just chanting names of any God such as
Shiva is not the point. The point is that we should understand the
significance of those names. There are some who may argue that even
chanting the names of God without knowing the significance is good,
but such chanting is of an inferior kind. One needs to graduate to
a higher level at some point.

Words such as "Consciousness", "knowledge/GYAna", "energy", "power",
"spirit", etc. tend to be used these days a lot in discussions. But
these remain mere words and discussion using them remains a mere
jugglery of words unless one understands the significance of the
words. One westerner on the list(I dont remember who it was) said
something to the effect that we misuse (or even abuse) words such
as "knowledge", "consciousness", etc. without understanding

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:06:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Sachin Chavan wrote:

> Dear fellows,
>
> I am new to the list and all the communication I have seen over the past
> few days (including the ones on the 11 names of Shiva, the deity) make me
> wonder:

New members should note that although not completely unrestricted
(postings should at least tangentially be connected with Advaita Vedanta
as taught by Shankaracharya) there is wide enough latitude to post on a
range of subjects. If the thing you're interested in is not currently
being talked about, you needn't wait for a "senior member" to bring it up
yourself.

>
> "What is advaita?"
>
> I always felt it is a + dvaita.
>
> That means non-duality.

Actually it means non-dual. It's an adjective and an adjective must
qualify a noun. In this case the noun is Vedanta.

A minor issue really, I'm sure most readers understood what you meant but
it does bring up the philosophical issue of accurate language. As a
management consultant I'm sure you're well aware of the importance of
scale as projects get larger. When a few people are communicating, slang,
colloquialisms and other forms of loose language don't matter so much, but
as communities get bigger and ideas get more complicated, it becomes more
and more important to use language strictly and accurately.

 >In other words,
belief in the fact that the whole
> world is nothing but manifestations of the same spirt/power. Which for
> simplicity is called "Shiva". Shiva here, means purity.
>
> Would not confusing "Shiva" with the deity Shankar be against the spirit of
> Advaita?

Yes, so let's not do that then! In my description of names, I've been
giving both their outer meanings and their inner significance. Ideally we
should be able to relate to God on many levels from the most immediate and
personal to the most abstract. Because only that gives the full picture.

Whatever the dictionary equivalance of "Shiva" and "purity" may be, the
two words have different association though some may overlap too. Words
carry meaning due to historical, sociological, and anthropological
factors. Even in the technical jargon of a field, linguistic drift
occurs. So to really "know" a word and the concepts it expresses, it is
not enough to take it at face value. The addtional factors must be looked
at too.

> How does it matter how many names the deity had?

For Shiva Bhagawan: not a bit. But for us, we are bound by names and
forms as other posters said.

 For that matter
> how is the power in that deity different from the power in you, me or say
> Atal Behari Vajpayee (to name one pure current leader)? I think the only
> difference is the intensity of the power and our awareness of it
>

Exactly. Can those differences be ignored?

> If Shiva is a deity, so were there 36 crore other. What would one achieve
> by remembering all their names? Will one achieve moksha?

Not having achieved moksha ourselves, the truthful answer is we don't
know. However knowing that illustrious sages and saints who have achieved
moksha do recommend the contemplation of Bhagawans names (Shankaracharya
for example has written commentaries on Vishnu Sahasranama and Lalita
Trishati plus stotras to all the major Vedic Gods,) Isn't it reasonable
to conclude that it can be such a means for us?

 > Should we not
> rather discuss how one can increase one's awareness of the energy which is
> common and how to improve ones awareness and make oneself more pure (or
> Shiva).

How would you suggest we do that (without words?)

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:00:11 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, V.M.Sundaram wrote:
>
> > I have heard this story. But have not understood its esoteric
> > meaning. There should be an inner meaning to saying that Brahmaaji,
> > who is recognized as one of the Trinity, "told a lie." Can some
> > member of the group explain the significance of this incident ?
> >
>
> I was talking to my father and he reminded me of a detail I had ommitted.
> As Brahmaji searches upwards, he sees a falling lotus. He thinks it must
> have been placed atop the lingam so He is near the top.
>
> So it was incorrect of me to say He "lied" but He did jump to conclusions.
>
> Compare also the Vaishnava-oriented version of why He is not worshipped.
> At the srshti, in order to create the worlds created Narada from the power
> of his mind and asked him to perform creation. But from the beginning,
> Naradaji was engrossed in Vishnubhakti and he refused to take part in the
> creation of samsara which would estrange living creatures from the
> experience of Bhagawan. Brahmaji cursed him to eternally wander the
> worlds and Naradji in return cursed him to not be worshipped anymore.
>
> In both these accounts, it seems Brahmajis sin is short-sightedness. He
> assumes the infinite is finite and the phenomenal world is all there is
> and that makes Him unsuitable to be the object of our devotions.

 Initially Brahmaa , vishhNu, and shiva - are the Trinity, with equal
status.
 Somewhere along the line, Brahmaa becomes less equal than the other two !
 Brahmaa the creator, gets listed among the created beings. ref. such
expressions as
 brahmaadi stamba paryantam (from brahmaa down to a blade of grass) ;
 aa-brahma-kiiTa-jananii ( mother of all beings from brahmaa down to a worm)
;
 brahmAdyAH sthAvarAntAshcha pashavaH parikIrtitAH [all creatures from
brahmaa
 to the non-moving plant life are called pashuu-s]; etc.

 Is this some kind of "glass ceiling" ?

 V.M.Sundaram

>
>
> > I beleive that he is worshipped in Thailand, and
> > some
> > other countries
> > of south- east asia.
> >
>
> I've heard that the word Burma comes from Brahma.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:30:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: Name 4 - Mahakala
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Mahakala - Great Time

Shiva Bhagawan is all-powerful, all-destroying time. nothing in this
universe can escape the power of Time. Even the highest mountains are
reduced to sand over time. Shiva Bhagawan as Mahakala is particulary
associated with the city of Avantika (modern Ujjain) Just as Greenwich is
the base meridian from which time is reckoned in the Modern system, per
the Indian system Avantika is the meridien.

The decay and violence in this name and some of the others may suggest to
some, that the Shaiva worship is very pessimistic and fearful. However,
this would be mistaken. Shiva Bhagawan is not so much a destroyer but a
regenerator. He destroys, not wantonly but only those impurities that
must be cleared away for purity to flourish. The ultimate truth is beyond
the reach of time and space and is not subject to creation, destruction
etc.


Om Mahakalaya Namah

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:45:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, V.M.Sundaram wrote:

> Initially Brahmaa , vishhNu, and shiva - are the Trinity, with equal
> status.
> Somewhere along the line, Brahmaa becomes less equal than the other two !
> Brahmaa the creator, gets listed among the created beings. ref. such
> expressions as
> brahmaadi stamba paryantam (from brahmaa down to a blade of grass) ;
> aa-brahma-kiiTa-jananii ( mother of all beings from brahmaa down to a worm)
> ;
> brahmAdyAH sthAvarAntAshcha pashavaH parikIrtitAH [all creatures from
> brahmaa
> to the non-moving plant life are called pashuu-s]; etc.
>
> Is this some kind of "glass ceiling" ?
>

>From the historical point of view, I've read an interesting conjecture,
(and I should emphasize it is only a conjecture - we have no way of
knowing for sure,) that the problem may have been that Brahmaji was too
popular for his own good. Prajapati is often equated in the Vedic texts
with the yagna. As Mimamsaka theories on yajna became more elaborate,
this role became increasingly depersonalized and abstract. Similiarly
Prajapati in the Upanishads is the supreme soul of the world. As Vedantic
theories on Brahman became more elaborate, once again there was a process
of abstraction and depersonalization. Thus when bhakti as a philosophy
came to the fore, its' thinkers may have found a more comfortable home
with less abstract and more accessible Deities.

I should add one more thing about Brahma-worship. In Gujarat, artisan
castes such as potters, carpenters, and blacksmiths etc. have Brahmaji
(as Prajapati or Vishwakarma) as their Kuladeva. I don't know if that's
true in other parts of India.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:54:48 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Sachin Chavan wrote:

> Dear fellows,
>
> That means non-duality. In other words, belief in the fact that the whole
> world is nothing but manifestations of the same spirt/power.....
>
> Would not confusing "Shiva" with the deity Shankar be against the spirit of
> Advaita?

 Not as long as you understand that what you refer to as the deity Shankara is

 a manifestation of the same spirit/power which you choose to refer to as
Shiva.

>
> If Shiva is a deity, so were there 36 crore other. What would one achieve
> by remembering all their names? Will one achieve moksha?

No, One will not acheive moksha (i presume you know the meaning of this word)
merely by remembering the names. It is an initial step in that direction.

> Should we not rather discuss how one can increase one's awareness of the
> energy which is
> common and how to improve ones awareness and make oneself more pure (or
> Shiva).

 You are quite right. Making oneself more pure means purifying one's mind.
Only an
absolutely pure mind can improve ones awareness. Chanting the names of any
deity,
helps in purifying the mind. Because Shivaraatri is approaching, Jaladharji
chose to
talk about the names of Shankar, now. You can choose any deity you like.
This will help in cleansing the mind if done with sincere devotion. Once that
is acheived
one can graduate to further steps to realize the single power that pervades
everything.
Not till then. You can not straightaway discuss Einstein's theories, you have
to first
train your mind to grasp the concepts involved.

V.M.Sundaram

>
>
>
>
>
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
> privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error,
> please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other
> use of the email by you is

>From owner-advaita-l at L...
Reply-To: 
Subject: Re : What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:04:26 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: owner-advaita-l at L...


I was extremely surprised by the following mail. In contrast with the
thought-provoking replies by Mr Anand Hudli and Mr Vyas, Mr Nanda's anger
surprised me!

May be he has misunderstood my query or genuinely hates the "modern world"
(as he choses to call it). I would like to believe the former. I embed my
thoughts in the text of his mail below!



nanda chandran <vpcnk at H...> (Mailed by: List for advaita vedanta as
taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>)
02/15/2001 12:29 PM EST
Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
 <ADVAITA-L at b...>

Regarding Chavan's question about the efficacy of chanting names, all I can
say is that we people who live in the modern world are not qualified to
raise such questions.

Aren't we all in the modern world? The very use of Internet by Mr Nanda
himself does not suggest otherwise.

The reason being that the Advaita Vedanta that we study where "knowledge is
the liberator" was designed for a people who lived in a very different
environs - where spirituality and discipline was the dominant theme of the
society.

If you're a modern individual working and making money, enjoying and sunk
in the pleasures of the modern world, better use every aid possible to
strengthen your spirituality.

Making money? I think "Arth" has been one of the four pillars of every
society. I dont think theres anything wrong in it (as long as you are true
to yourself and learning by legal means). Also, it does not weaken
anybody's spirituality.

It is very easy to proclaim the supremacy of knowledge - but incredibly
hard to practice it. Strictly speaking the Advaitic texts and the
Upanishads are only for samnyasins.

If that were so, we all non-sanyasins should not be discussing it at all.
Grihastas like us I believe lead equally, if not more difficult lives than
sanyasins. Anyway, we have seen some sanyasins and their roudy behaviour at
kumbh melas. This does not mean all sanyasins are likewise. Same about all
grihastas.

Walking that path is hard beyond imagination. Modern men simply do not have
the physical/mental discipline for such a task.

Want to try something practical?

According to Shankara action/karma is opposed to jnana like light and
darkness. So action, in a way, is the direct antithesis of liberation
(actually the concept is a very subtle philosophical concept, but am only
using it for a practical exercise).

Yes, action is important. But action not guided by knowledge would not
achieve much. By the way, I was only refering to the emphasis on "Names" of
Gods in my mail. Nowhere I have proposed knowledge is more important than
action. But knowing the reason behind your actions is definitely important.
Or else it is "blind faith". Some of these points are very well put by the
other respondents.

Forget being inactive for life - just go and sit in a corner and try to
stay there for a couple of hours. Forget concentration of the mind and all
that. Just sit for a couple of hours in a spot doing nothing. See if you
have the discipline.

I agree. But so what does it prove? Having spent 10 days at stretch
learning Vipassana, without resorting to speech or any other way of
communication a multiple times, I do appreciate the importance of
"inactivity". But mind you, when you have a reason for this inactivity, it
no longer disturbs you, but only makes you more resolved and disciplined.
Thats when you start looking at the "Sanskaras" (good and bad both)
objectively. I shall keep this for another discussion

Bhakti, yoga, jnana - use all implements to strengthen your spirituality.
But ofcourse ultimately only knowledge can liberate.

Is Mr Nanda contradicting himself here? Hopefully not. By the way, I think
you can't practice bhakti, yoga (I thought bhakti is a type of yoga)
without "knowledge" of the rationale behind and still expect it to help. On
liberation, or moksha, we should have a separate discussion on what it
means. The wiser people in the forum can throw light on what moksha is, or
at least guess!


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>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:36:22 -0500
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


>I should add one more thing about Brahma-worship. In Gujarat, artisan
>castes such as potters, carpenters, and blacksmiths etc. have Brahmaji
>(as Prajapati or Vishwakarma) as their Kuladeva. I don't know if that's
>true in other parts of India.
>
>
>--
>Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>

I heard Brahmaji came to west before others gods did. He found a
secure place in front of Ceasors Palace in Los Vegas. Tailand has
donated a small Brahma temple, so that one can get blessings before
one enters the gambling place! Are there Brahmaji's temples in
Tailand?

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:15:23 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"K. Sadananda" wrote:

> >I should add one more thing about Brahma-worship. In Gujarat, artisan
> >castes such as potters, carpenters, and blacksmiths etc. have Brahmaji
> >(as Prajapati or Vishwakarma) as their Kuladeva. I don't know if that's
> >true in other parts of India.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
>
> I heard Brahmaji came to west before others gods did. He found a
> secure place in front of Ceasors Palace in Los Vegas. Tailand has
> donated a small Brahma temple, so that one can get blessings before
> one enters the gambling place! Are there Brahmaji's temples in
> Tailand?

 yes. There is avery popular one in Bangkok.

 V.M.S.

>
>
> Hari Om!
> Sadananda
> --
> K. Sadananda
> Code 6323
> Naval Research Laboratory
> Washington D.C. 20375
> Voice (202)767-2117
>

>From owner-advaita-l at L...
Reply-To: 
Subject: Re: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:16:15 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: owner-advaita-l at L...


You said:

[Similarly, in the case of being entangled in the world of names and
forms, there are certain special names and forms that we can be
associated with to help us free ourselves from names and forms.]


Which are these names? Do we have a list? What is unique about these words?
Is the uniqueness in the words, their pronounciation, thevibration they
generate, or is it only the feeling with which utters these words?

Also, your example of indigestion is very interesting. But I cant stop
thinking that the stomach and its health are definites, ones which we know.
Can the same be said of freedom?

Can we use a rope (here, the names) to climb out of worldly affairs and try
and reach freedom? Would the rope not restrict us? CAn fundamentally a rope
created by mortals (as the words) reach that what is immortal? How can one
leave the rope then?







Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...> (Mailed by: List for advaita vedanta
as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>)
02/15/2001 01:35 PM EST
Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
 <ADVAITA-L at b...>

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:49:05 +0530, Sachin Chavan
<sachin.chavan at A...> wrote:

>Dear fellows,
>
>I am new to the list and all the communication I have seen over the past
>few days (including the ones on the 11 names of Shiva, the deity) make me
>wonder:
>
>"What is advaita?"
>
>I always felt it is a + dvaita.
>
>That means non-duality. In other words, belief in the fact that the whole
>world is nothing but manifestations of the same spirt/power. Which for
>simplicity is called "Shiva". Shiva here, means purity.
>
>Would not confusing "Shiva" with the deity Shankar be against the spirit
of
>Advaita? How does it matter how many names the deity had? For that matter
>how is the power in that deity different from the power in you, me or say
>Atal Behari Vajpayee (to name one pure current leader)? I think the only
>difference is the intensity of the power and our awareness of it
>
>If Shiva is a deity, so were there 36 crore other. What would one achieve
>by remembering all their names? Will one achieve moksha? Should we not
>rather discuss how one can increase one's awareness of the energy which is
>common and how to improve ones awareness and make oneself more pure (or
>Shiva).


Welcome to the list. First, it is difficult to have a good picture of
what the list discusses by taking a snapshot of only a few days. There
is a large amount of material out there in the archives. Also, we seem
to have a paucity of members willing to come forward and start
discussions. Most of the discussion (if you consider long periods of time)
takes place among a few frequent posters and so it is the agenda of these
frequent posters that takes center stage. Perhaps we need some kind of
modern motivational therapy here :-).

Second, on a more serious and philosophical level, what is the world
apart from names and forms (nAmarUpa)? Everthing that we perceive or think
of can be captured in names and forms. By form I mean some representation
that an organ (indriya) can grasp. In order to realize what advaita
teaches, we must go beyond this world of names and forms. But how can
we do this even while within the world of names and forms? The answer
is that the key to become free from names and forms is within names
and forms. This seems to be an absurd statement until we understand
that the certain names and forms are of a special kind that help us
go beyond names and forms. It is like medicine for indigestion. When a
person is suffering from indigestion, commonsense dictates that the
person should avoid consuming anything. But sometimes the case of
indigestion is so bad that the person has to be given some medicine.
At that point, do we ask, "How can indigestion be cured by intake of
anything?" Even though the medicine is consumed with the same organs
that consume food, internally the medicine works wonders and cures
one of indigestion.

Similarly, in the case of being entangled in the world of names and
forms, there are certain special names and forms that we can be
associated with to help us free ourselves from names and forms.

We should also remember advaita is based on the shruti (Vedas) which
is nothing but collections of words. advaita holds that realization
occurs by means of VedAnta-vAkyas. The mahAvAkyas, for example
"tattvamasi", are words. But we need to understand the significance
of these words. Similarly, just chanting names of any God such as
Shiva is not the point. The point is that we should understand the
significance of those names. There are some who may argue that even
chanting the names of God without knowing the significance is good,
but such chanting is of an inferior kind. One needs to graduate to
a higher level at some point.

Words such as "Consciousness", "knowledge/GYAna", "energy", "power",
"spirit", etc. tend to be used these days a lot in discussions. But
these remain mere words and discussion using them remains a mere
jugglery of words unless one understands the significance of the
words. One westerner on the list(I dont remember who it was) said
something to the effect that we misuse (or even abuse) words such
as "knowledge", "consciousness", etc. without understanding them.


Anand


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>From Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:30:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Our Fundamental Error - Part 4 of 11
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>


>
> Analogy of the Rope and the Snake
>
> This example originates
> from the commentaries of GauDapaada on the MaaNDuukya
> upanishhad. Seeing a rope in the dark, it is mistaken for a
> snake - an error or adhyaasa. We mistakenly superimpose the
> image of an illusory snake onto the real rope. In just such a
> way we superimpose the illusion of objects etc. upon the one aatman.

While reading Yoga Vasishtha, I have come across the snake and rope example
several times. Yoga Vasishtha is considered to be the oldest independent
work on Advaita Vedanta. Perhaps, a senior member can elaborate on this.

The background for Rishi Vasishtha's intructions to Shri Rama, as most well
know, is his state of indifference to all actions (karmas). At the time of
this instruction, he is all of 15 years old. King Dashratha is extremely
despondent at this condition of his son. It so happens that Rishi
Vishwamitra arrives at his court to ask for Rama as a protector for his
various yajnas. Dashratha refuses initially but at the intervention of
Vasishtha, Rama is called into the court. Upon observing his condition, and
asking him as to the cause of his indifference to actions, sage Vasishtha
begins his instruction. The court is full of sagely kings and princes, all
of the sages from Dashratha's kingdom, the Gods and the divine sages as
well. Among those present are Sages Sanandana, Sanatkumara, Vyasa and
others.

The Yoga Vasishtha work I have is in four volumes and has been translated
by Vihari Lala Mitra. It is work of poetry-par-excellence - the sheer
manner in which things are described takes one's breath away. I am
wondering how beautiful it would be in original Sanskrit!

One thing that I came across, and that has riled me for a while, was the
mention of Sage Vyasa. He is listed as being present but is also mentioned
as not having achieved the state of Kaivalya (or moksha). Sage Vasishtha
mentions him and says that he (Vyasa) will be born 8 more times, and
finally, after writing the famous Mahabharata and dividing the Vedas and
writing his famous work of Brahma-Sutra, he will achieve moksha. Also
mentioned is his son, Suka. Sukadev is mentioned as having asked his father
about the ultimate reality. After Vyasa instructs him, Suka is not
satisfied. So sage Vyasa sends him to the famous sage-king (I don't
remember his name). He waits at the king's palace for 7 days ( I think most
will know the story - I don't remember it exactly but maybe Jaladhar can
post it). Finally, the king shows up and instructs Sukadev. When he (Suka)
is still not satisfied, says Sage Vasishtha, he (Suka) retires to a forest
where after 10,000 rains, he achieves moksha.

Now, according to the Advaita Parampara, Gaudapada was Suka's disciple.
Also, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, Sukadev is still a child when he
instructs king Parikshit (thread called Mriyamanasya Kim Kartavyam in the
archives). King Parikshit is post Mahabharat. According to Yoga Vasishtha,
Sukadev had already achieved moksha before Vasishtha's instruction to Shri
Rama.

Could someone explain whether the two Sukadevs are the same or different,
and why is this confusing, and also, more importantly, whether Acharya
Shankara has mentioned Yoga Vasishtha anywhere (or commented on it), and if
He hasn't, then

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:37:27 -0500
Subject: Re: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:16:15 +0530, Sachin Chavan
<sachin.chavan at A...> wrote:

>You said:
>
>[Similarly, in the case of being entangled in the world of names and
>forms, there are certain special names and forms that we can be
>associated with to help us free ourselves from names and forms.]
>
>
>Which are these names? Do we have a list? What is unique about these words?
>Is the uniqueness in the words, their pronounciation, thevibration they
>generate, or is it only the feeling with which utters these words?

First of all, the world of names and forms that arises from Brahman
as foam arises from water, is clearly explained in the first chapter
of the prose section (gadyabhAga) of the upadeshasAhasrI, which I
believe should be read by everyone who wants to understand advaita.
See especially how Shankara refers to the shruti quote from the puruSha
sUkta (taittirIya-AraNyaka version) "sarvANi roopANi vichitya dhIraH
nAmAni kR^itvAbhivadan.h yadAste".

Now, coming back to the question of special names and forms, such as
"shiva" and the form of the linga, any resort to these must be
accompanied by some discipline. Even in the example of indigestion
medicine, there has to be some discipline involved. We cannot say'
"OK, take the medicine now and two seconds later eat whatever you
want, as much as you want!" The discipline, which also deals with
pronounciation, etc, among other things, dictates how we should
use those names and forms. We should strive to follow the whole
discipline, not just focus on pronounciation or vibration.

>
>Also, your example of indigestion is very interesting. But I cant stop
>thinking that the stomach and its health are definites, ones which we know.
>Can the same be said of freedom?

Of course, all analogies have their limitations. Another analogy used is:
removing a thorn with a thorn. Since we cannot directly explain how
freedom occurs in a simple manner, these simple analogies are used.
It does not mean analogies are irrelevant. If they were, our
AchAryas would not have used them in their treatises.
>
>Can we use a rope (here, the names) to climb out of worldly affairs and try
>and reach freedom? Would the rope not restrict us? CAn fundamentally a rope
>created by mortals (as the words) reach that what is immortal? How can one
>leave the rope then?
>

Essentially, what you are asking is equivalent to: How can a dream
object wake us up from the dream in which it itself appears? Anyone
who sees a frightening creature, (a tiger, snake, etc.) in a dream
can answer

>From ns.sridhar at i...
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:31:26 +0530
Subject: Re: Our Fundamental Error - Part 4 of 11
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: ns.sridhar at i...


Ashish Chandra wrote :

One thing that I came across, and that has riled me for a while, was the
mention of Sage Vyasa. He is listed as being present but is also mentioned
as not having achieved the state of Kaivalya (or moksha). Sage Vasishtha
mentions him and says that he (Vyasa) will be born 8 more times, and
finally, after writing the famous Mahabharata and dividing the Vedas and
writing his famous work of Brahma-Sutra, he will achieve moksha. Also
mentioned is his son, Suka. Sukadev is mentioned as having asked his father
about the ultimate reality. After Vyasa instructs him, Suka is not
satisfied. So sage Vyasa sends him to the famous sage-king (I don't
remember his name). He waits at the king's palace for 7 days ( I think most
will know the story - I don't remember it exactly but maybe Jaladhar can
post it). Finally, the king shows up and instructs Sukadev. When he (Suka)
is still not satisfied, says Sage Vasishtha, he (Suka) retires to a forest
where after 10,000 rains, he achieves moksha.

I think the king was Janaka. Janaka was a highly realised soul and Vyasa
instructed Suka to go and meet the king. The king keeps Suka waiting outside his
palace for 7 days. But this does not affect Suka in any way. He does not have
anger or ill will towards the king for keeping him waiting. Thereafter, once
Suka is accorded a royal welcome. Even at this stage, Suka is indifferent to the
attention being paid to him. King Janaka thus having tested Suka, proceeds to
instruct him on Brahma Vidya.

Many of the scriptures including the Bhagavatam, mention that Suka as an eternal
young person who was a highly realised soul. Maybe other list members may be
able to throw more light on the whether the tow Sukadevs are the same or
different.

Regards

N. SRIDHAR





The Yoga Vasishtha work I have is in four volumes and has been translated
by Vihari Lala Mitra. It is work of poetry-par-excellence - the sheer
manner in which things are described takes one's breath away. I am
wondering how beautiful it would be in original Sanskrit!

One thing that I came across, and that has riled me for a while, was the
mention of Sage Vyasa. He is listed as being present but is also mentioned
as not having achieved the state of Kaivalya (or moksha). Sage Vasishtha
mentions him and says that he (Vyasa) will be born 8 more times, and
finally, after writing the famous Mahabharata and dividing the Vedas and
writing his famous work of Brahma-Sutra, he will achieve moksha. Also
mentioned is his son, Suka. Sukadev is mentioned as having asked his father
about the ultimate reality. After Vyasa instructs him, Suka is not
satisfied. So sage Vyasa sends him to the famous sage-king (I don't
remember his name). He waits at the king's palace for 7 days ( I think most
will know the story - I don't remember it exactly but maybe Jaladhar can
post it). Finally, the king shows up and instructs Sukadev. When he (Suka)
is still not satisfied, says Sage Vasishtha, he (Suka) retires to a forest
where after 10,000 rains, he achieves moksha.

Now, according to the Advaita Parampara, Gaudapada was Suka's disciple.
Also, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, Sukadev is still a child when he
instructs king Parikshit (thread called Mriyamanasya Kim Kartavyam in the
archives). King Parikshit is post Mahabharat. According to Yoga Vasishtha,
Sukadev had already achieved moksha before Vasishtha's instruction to Shri
Rama.

Could someone explain whether the two Sukadevs are the same or different,
and why is this confusing, and also, more importantly, whether Acharya
Shankara has mentioned Yoga Vasishtha anywhere (or commented on it), and if
He hasn't, then

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:32:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 5: Tatpurusha
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Tatpurusha - That personified

The entire purport of the Vedas is contained in the four Mahavakyas, one
of which is tattvamasi "you are that". What is the "that" which is being
refered to? "That" is Brahman. What are the implications of knowing you
are one with Brahman? In the chandogyopanishad it is related that Indra
the Deva raja, and Virochana, the Asura raja both heard the Vedantic
teaching. Virochan instantly thought "Oh, I'm God so I can do whatever I
like." Indra on the other hand, grasped the real meaning that the
equation of jiva and Brahman is meant to lessen the ego not give it free
license. Thus for a while the Asuras prospered but in the end the Devas
prevailed.

The snare of the ego or ahamkara is a strong and insidious one and even
the mightiest find it difficult to resist. Once Shankaracharya was in
Kashi and he awoke one morning to take his snana in the Ganga. As he
approached the ghata his way was barred by a dom, one of the untouchable
caste whose job is to cremate the dead in that city. Angrily, he ordered
him out of the way. whereupon the dom replied, "How can a person who
claims to shun the false world of names and forms talk about 'you' or
'me'?" Whereupon Shankaracharya instantly realized this was none
other than Shiva Bhagawan come to teach him a lesson. He spontaneously
composed a stotra of 10 verses (hence its' name dashashloki) where every
verse ends with the refrain "chidanandarupam shivo'ham shivo'ham". Swami
Madhusudana Saraswati has written a very important commentary on this
stotra called siddhantabindu. Shivo'ham means the same as tattvamasi.
"that" expressed in a personal way is Shiva Bhagawan

Om tatpurushaya namah

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:45:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Our Fundamental Error - Part 4 of 11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Ashish Chandra wrote:

> One thing that I came across, and that has riled me for a while, was the
> mention of Sage Vyasa. He is listed as being present but is also mentioned
> as not having achieved the state of Kaivalya (or moksha).

This is mentioned in the Bhagavata Purana too. When Vyasaji went to bathe
in a lake the apsaras who were bathing their naked immediately got out and
covered themselves up. But when Shukadevaji went to bathe they didn't
bother. When the Maharshi asked them for an explanation, the apsaras
replied we still have to be modest around you because you still make a
distinction between forms. But your son is completely innocent of such
things.

> Sage Vasishtha
> mentions him and says that he (Vyasa) will be born 8 more times, and
> finally, after writing the famous Mahabharata and dividing the Vedas and
> writing his famous work of Brahma-Sutra, he will achieve moksha. Also
> mentioned is his son, Suka. Sukadev is mentioned as having asked his father
> about the ultimate reality. After Vyasa instructs him, Suka is not
> satisfied. So sage Vyasa sends him to the famous sage-king (I don't
> remember his name). He waits at the king's palace for 7 days ( I think most
> will know the story - I don't remember it exactly but maybe Jaladhar can
> post it). Finally, the king shows up and instructs Sukadev. When he (Suka)
> is still not satisfied, says Sage Vasishtha, he (Suka) retires to a forest
> where after 10,000 rains, he achieves moksha.
>
> Now, according to the Advaita Parampara, Gaudapada was Suka's disciple.
> Also, according to the Srimad Bhagavatam, Sukadev is still a child when he
> instructs king Parikshit (thread called Mriyamanasya Kim Kartavyam in the
> archives). King Parikshit is post Mahabharat. According to Yoga Vasishtha,
> Sukadev had already achieved moksha before Vasishtha's instruction to Shri
> Rama.
>
> Could someone explain whether the two Sukadevs are the same or different,

According to Swami Chandrashekharendra Saraswati of Kanchis' book 'Adi
Shankara: His Life And Times', Gaudapada acharya was cursed to be a
brahmarakshasa for thousands of years. That might explain the time gap.

> and why is this confusing, and also, more importantly, whether Acharya
> Shankara has mentioned Yoga Vasishtha anywhere (or commented on it), and if
> He hasn't, then why.

That I couldn't tell you. Maybe he just didn't get around to it?
Considering his literary career was only between the ages of 16 and 32,
it's amazing that he wrote as much as he did.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:49:47 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 5: Tatpurusha
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> Tatpurusha - That personified
>
> ..... Once Shankaracharya was in
> Kashi and he awoke one morning to take his snana in the Ganga. As he
> approached the ghata his way was barred by a dom, one of the untouchable
> caste whose job is to cremate the dead in that city. Angrily, he ordered
> him out of the way. whereupon the dom replied, "How can a person who
> claims to shun the false world of names and forms talk about 'you' or
> 'me'?" Whereupon Shankaracharya instantly realized this was none
> other than Shiva Bhagawan come to teach him a lesson. He spontaneously
> composed a stotra of 10 verses (hence its' name dashashloki) where every
> verse ends with the refrain "chidanandarupam shivo'ham shivo'ham". Swami
> Madhusudana Saraswati has written a very important commentary on this
> stotra called siddhantabindu. Shivo'ham means the same as tattvamasi.
> "that" expressed in a personal way is Shiva Bhagawan

 I beg your pardon, Jaladharji. There seems to be some mix up here.

Soon after the incident of the candaala in kaashi, shankara composed the
 stotra called maniishhaa pancakam . (five stanza-s)

The refrain cidaananda ruupaH shivoham shivoham occurs in his
 nirvaaNa shhatkam (six stanza-s).

 The dasha-shlokii stuti (ten stanza-s) is yet another of shankara's
compositions , in which each stanza ends with the refrain :
tasmin me hR^dayam sukhena ramataam saambe parabrahmaNi
[may my mind be absorbed in that supreme reality accompanied by Mother].

I do not know for which of these three stotra-s has Madhusuudana Saraswati
written a

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:13:53 -0500
Subject: Yantra book opinion, anyone? (more on names and forms)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


Continuing the discussion on names and forms ...

I have just been handed a book titled "Yantra" by Madhu Khanna, published
by Thames and Hudson, 1979.

A Yantra is a geometrical diagram, usually corresponding to a deity.
The most famous of all yantras is, of course, the shrI-yantra or
shrI-chakra. One of the claims the author makes is that mantra and
yantra are equivalent and cites a reference (L. Blair, Rythms of
Vision) according to which modern research in cymatics shows that
the most fundamental symbol "AUM" (praNava) when "converted" into
a visual representation produces a circle filled with concentric
squares and triangles. The conclusion drawn from this in the book
is that mantra and yantra are the same.

The book has a large number of yantra diagrams, nicely illustrated,
including several obscure ones such as the yantra of VaruNa, and the
yantra of rAdhA, the lover of Krishna. Many of the yantras are
illustrated in color.

Not being into yantras myself, I ask if someone who is and
who has read this book can write an opinion on it.

>From "Vishvarupa" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Yantra book opinion, anyone? (more on names and forms)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:20:47 +0100
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Vishvarupa" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Om,

I have not read the book, but I have a little knowledge about yantras. That
yantras are the visual form of mantras is not really a conclusion reached by
science, it is what the tantras say, and science has found a way of prooving
it. There is a device, which uses a microphone, a diaphragm and very fine
dust to make the geometrical patterns produced by sounds visible. I've also
seen a photo of a computer reproduction of patterns created by sounds, which
showed a shriyantra produced by the recitation of OM.
The Tantras say that the mantra is the soundbody of the divinity, while the
yantra is its body. The real yantra of course is what manifests on a subtile
level when the mantra is properly intoned. The outer yantra is only a
symbol, as long as it is not charged with the mantra and thereby becomes a
dwelling place of the real yantra, the embodiment of the divinity.

Om Om Om
vishvarupa


----- Original Message -----
From: "Anand Hudli" <anandhudli at H...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 5:13 PM
Subject: Yantra book opinion, anyone? (more on names and forms)


Continuing the discussion on names and forms ...

I have just been handed a book titled "Yantra" by Madhu Khanna, published
by Thames and Hudson, 1979.

A Yantra is a geometrical diagram, usually corresponding to a deity.
The most famous of all yantras is, of course, the shrI-yantra or
shrI-chakra. One of the claims the author makes is that mantra and
yantra are equivalent and cites a reference (L. Blair, Rythms of
Vision) according to which modern research in cymatics shows that
the most fundamental symbol "AUM" (praNava) when "converted" into
a visual representation produces a circle filled with concentric
squares and triangles. The conclusion drawn from this in the book
is that mantra and yantra are the same.

The book has a large number of yantra diagrams, nicely illustrated,
including several obscure ones such as the yantra of VaruNa, and the
yantra of rAdhA, the lover of Krishna. Many of the yantras are
illustrated in color.

Not being into yantras myself, I ask if someone who is and
who has read this book can write an opinion on it.

>From "Chaitanya Bhagavat" <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...>
Subject: Re: What is Advaita? - Fundamental question
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:13:53 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Chaitanya Bhagavat" <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...>


>On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:16:15 +0530, Sachin Chavan
><sachin.chavan at A...> wrote:
>
> >Anand Hudli said:
> >
> >[Similarly, in the case of being entangled in the world of names and
> >forms, there are certain special names and forms that we can be
> >associated with to help us free ourselves from names and forms.]
> >
> >
> >Which are these names? Do we have a list? What is unique about these
>words?
> >Is the uniqueness in the words, their pronounciation, thevibration they
> >generate, or is it only the feeling with which utters these words?
>
>
>Now, coming back to the question of special names and forms, such as
>"shiva" and the form of the linga, any resort to these must be
>accompanied by some discipline. Even in the example of indigestion
>medicine, there has to be some discipline involved. We cannot say'
>"OK, take the medicine now and two seconds later eat whatever you
>want, as much as you want!" The discipline, which also deals with
>pronounciation, etc, among other things, dictates how we should
>use those names and forms. We should strive to follow the whole
>discipline, not just focus on pronounciation or vibration.
>

What this also means is that the aspirant should eschew sense-enjoyment if
he's genuinely serious about making any progress in spiritual life. We find
that many people pretend to be great Vedantins when they are not situated
even on the human platform of life! I'd like to elaborate on this a bit more
in future posts but our scriptures explicitly warn us that trying to
understand and then follow the path of Vedanta (Jnana/Bhakti/Yoga, etc) and
indulging the senses at the same time is no better than crossing a river by
holding onto the tail of a crocodile! Eating, sleeping, fear
(self-sustenance) and mating are activities common across all species so
there's no point in simply making "advancement" in these spheres of life.
Instead our Acharyas advice and urge us to cut-down on these very activities
(however enjoyable they may be). Indeed it's a necessary condition to begin
the study of the Vedanta what to speak of understanding it. As the analogy
aptly points out, it's futile to cure indigestion if one insists on
consuming delicious foods along with medicine!

Hari Om,

Chaitanya



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:52:21 -0500
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 5: Tatpurusha
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


Re: maniishhaa pancakam (five stanza-s), nirvaaNa shhatkam (six
stanza-s) and dasha-shlokii stuti (ten stanza-s)

Madhusudana Sarasvati's Siddhantabindu is a commentary on Dasasloki.

The legend of Gaudapada having been cursed to be a Brahmarakshasa
is not known in any textual account of Sankaracharya and his lineage.
It is current only among one group of people in south India. Others,
even in the south, don't recount this

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:31:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Balu Ramaswamy
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Sir,
 Thank you for your invitation. I am a bank officer. My interests are
Vedanta, Hindu Religion, Carnatic music. Please enrol me as subscriber as I
am eager to learn more about Advaita Vedanta. I am a great devotee of
H.H.Sringer Jagadhguru. I learnt a bit of lessons in Geetha and Upanishads
at Chinmaya Mission. Please me full details and help me in logging in to
this site.
 Thanking you with Pranams,



>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:05:07 -0500 (EST)
Reply-To: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...>
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - name 1 Nilakantha
MIME-Version: 1.0
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


With 11 days to go before Mahashivaratri, I thought I'd post one of the
names of Shiva Bhagawan every day. Here's the first:

Nilakantha: Blue throated

When the Devas and Daityas churned the ocean for amrit, first a fiery
poison called halahala was produced which threatened to overcome everyone.
Shiva Bhagawan saved them by swallowing it. It got no further than his
throat which turned blue in the process. Hence Shiva Bhagawan is known as
Nilakantha. During the Pralaya when the present cycle of the world is
ended, He will vomit forth this poison again to destroy the world. This
should not be seen as a negative thing. Just as fire burns but is also
called pavaka ("purifier") because it reduces things to their essence, the
pralaya is not the end of the story but the beginning of the renewal of
the world and the beginning of its new cycle. It is only poison to samsara.

There is an inner meaning too. Shiva Bhagawan is Yogeshwara - the lord of
Yogis. It is due to His complete self-mastery that the halahala is
contained in suspended animation as it were in His throat. In that state
it is nether non-manifest or manifest but inert, perpetually ready to
activate its potential.

The halahala is also symbolic of mantras. Whereas to signify memorizing
something, an English speaker might say he has it "by heart", in
Sanskrit-derived languages we say it is kanthastha "in the throat" Shiva
Bhagawan has all the mantras in His throat. In the wrong hands they are
poison. In the hands of an expert, they have great power for good.

Om Nilkanthaya

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:11:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Rajayoga - Layayoga
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 31 Jan 2001, Bell, Gregg wrote:

> Can someone explain the difference between Rajayoga and Layayoga? So far,
> Layayoga seems to be very similar to Rajayoga, but with a more detailed
> emphasis on the Chakras.
>

Since you wrote this mail I've been looking around to see if I can find
out anything about this laya yoga and I've not come up wth anything. Are
you sure you're author is not just making it up? (Be wary of "Ancient
Mystical Paths of The Orient" they are often the products of someones
wishful thinking.)

Chakras are on firmer ground though they are chiefly a feature of Tantric
philosophies. Some varieties of Tantra are in accord with Advaita Vedanta
and some are condemned by it.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:20:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Web expertise needed
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, nanda chandran wrote:

>
> Dear all,
>
> For the last year or so, Vishal Agarwal and I have been working on
> building a comprehensive site on Indian philosophy - Vedas, Upanishads,
> Gita, Dharma Shastrams, nastika, astika and other miscellaneous schools.
> The content is 90% finished and we hope to have all the material ready
> within another month.
>

If you need a place to host it I'd be happy to provide space either under
www.advaita-vedanta.org or your own domain name.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:14:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Our Fundamental Error - Part 4 of 11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
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Note: forwarded message attached.


__________________________________________________
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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:35:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Tryambaka: Having Three Eyes

Apart from the usual two eyes with which the mundane world is seen, Shiva
Bhagawan is depicted with a third eye - the eye of Jnana. When that eye
is opened it burns samsara to ashes. This happened to Kamadeva (the God
of sensual enjoyment) which is why another of Shankara Bhagawans names is
Smarahara.

The three eyes also represent sun, moon, and fire. They illuminate the
world but they are only the reflected energy of Bhagawan. Once on Mt.
Kailasa, Mata Parvati playfully covered Bhagawans eyes. As a result the
worldcame to a standstill plunged into darkness. As they attempted to
find the cause of this darkness, the Devas came across a lingam of light
which seemed to stretch on forever. They sent Brahmaji on his hamsa to
find the top and Vishnu Bhagawan (in the form of a boar) to dig down
and find the bottom. After a seeming eternity of fruitless searching,
Brahmaji gave up and declared that he had found the top. Vishnu Bhagawan
also gave up but He truthfully declared he couldn't find the bottom and
that this must be nothing other than a miracle of Shiva Bhagawan the true
illuminator of the worlds. At that, the light of the sun, moon, and
fire was suddenly restored. For lying Brahmaji was cursed to no longer be
worshipped among men whereas Vishnu Bhagawan was blessed as the maintainer
and protector of the worlds.

Om Tryambakaya namah

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:37:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - name 1 Nilakantha (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


A forwarded message from V.M. Sundaram

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:35:58 +0800
From: V.M.Sundaram <venkataraman at p...>
To: Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - name 1 Nilakantha



"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> With 11 days to go before Mahashivaratri, I thought I'd post one of the
> names of Shiva Bhagawan every day. Here's the first:
>
> Nilakantha: Blue throated

Dear Jaladharji, Namaskaar.
 It is a very good idea that we study names of Shiva Bhagavan, before
shivaraatri.

 May I add some more thoughts on this naama.

 1. In sanskrit, the word shR^ii also means poison. So Shiva is known
as shrii-kanTha (one who has poison in his throat) which is the same as
niila-kaNTha.
 Not to be confused with shrii-kaanta , meaning the beloved of Lakshmii, an
epithet of VishhNu.
 2. Not far from Mysore, there is the famous temple of NanjuNdeshvara.
Nanju means poison in tamil and kannada languages. NanjuNda means one
who consumed poison. The names shrii-kanThan and nanjuNdan are very common
in south India.
 3. In the shrii lalitaa ashhTottara shata nama (108 names of lalitaa devi)
stotram,
one of the names is shrii-kaNTha-netra-kumuda-candrikaayai namo namaH.
[ Salutations to Her who makes the eyes of shrii-kaNTha gleam with joy, just as
the moon makes the blue lotus bloom ]
 4. This pauraaNik incident reminds us that any major project designed to do
good
will give rise to by-products or unforeseen side effects which can cause great
environmental
pollution . Adequate steps need to be taken to tackle and contain such
dangers. Modern day technology is replete with

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:02:51 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan: 2 - Tryambaka
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> Tryambaka: Having Three Eyes
>
>

> For lying Brahmaji was cursed to no longer be
> worshipped among men whereas Vishnu Bhagawan was blessed as the maintainer
> and protector of the worlds.

I have heard this story. But have not understood its esoteric meaning.
There
should be
an inner meaning to saying that Brahmaaji, who is recognized as one of
the
Trinity,
"told a lie." Can some member of the group explain the significance of
this
incident ?

Nevertheless, it is true that Brahmaaji rarely has a temple dedicated to
himself , though
almost every temple has a statue of him installed some where in the
temple, in
the praakara
or on a pillar -- as a minor deity. Only in Pushhkar near Ajmer, is a
temple
dedicated to
Brahmaaji in India. I beleive that he is worshipped in Thailand, and
some
other countries
of south- east asia.

>
> Om Tryambakaya namah

 This particular name is invoked in the mahaa mR^tyunjaya mantra :

 tryambakam yajaamahe sugandhim pushhTi -vardhanam
 urvaarukamiva bandhanaat mR^tyor mukshiiya maa amR^tat.

Regards.
V.M.Sundaram

>
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - name 1 Nilakantha
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:23:31 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


>
>With 11 days to go before Mahashivaratri, I thought I'd post one of the
>names of Shiva Bhagawan every day. Here's the first:
>
>Nilakantha: Blue throated
>
>When the Devas and Daityas churned the ocean for amrit, first a fiery
>poison called halahala was produced which threatened to overcome everyone.
>Shiva Bhagawan saved them by swallowing it. It got no further than his
>throat which turned blue in the process. Hence Shiva Bhagawan is known as
>Nilakantha.
>
>Om Nilkanthaya Namah

This January, while I was in India for about two weeks, I had the good
fortune to visit the temple of Shri Nilakanth Mahadev, located about 14 km
from Rishikesh. The temple can be reached after crossing 3 hills through a
mountain path, or by car. The shivlinga at the temple is considered to be
related to the Pauranik katha about the drinking of Halahala by Shivji. The
temple was rediscovered in the 19th century by a saint by the name of Shri
Siddha Bali Baba. There is a small temple atop the hill from Nilkanth temple
that is devoted to Siddha Bali Baba. Both the temples are run and maintained
by Brahmacharis/Sannyasis. The Nilkanth Mahadev temple is maintained by a
Sadhu of the Niranjani (or Maha Nirvani Akhada - I might have them
confused), one of the Dasanami order Akhada, as also one of the seven Shaiva
ones. During the month of Shraavan, there is a great Mela that is organized
in Rishikesh dedicated to Nilkanth and a great number of devotees visit the
temple with Gangajal and Bilva leaves to offer to Shivji. About 45 km from
Nilkanth Mahadev are some caves, that are reached by a jungle path only,
that are considered to be the abode of several Siddha Sannyaasis that are
engaged in Saadhnaa. Needless to say, the entire region is full
historical/religious importance and very holy.

ashish

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:38:43 -0500
Subject: vedasArashivastava
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


The R^ig Vedic rudra-sUkta (2.33) says "gR^iNImasi tveShaM rudrasya
 nAma", we utter the brilliant name of Rudra. A short hymn called the
 vedasArashivastava, attributed to Shankara, glorifies the names of Shiva
 and also reveals some of the teachings of advaita.

 pashUnAM patiM pApanAshaM pareshaM
 gajendrasya kR^ittiM vasAnaM vareNyam.h |
 jaTAjUTamadhye sphuradgAN^gavAriM
 mahAdevamekaM smarAmi smarArim.h || 1 ||

 I remember the Lord of all beings, the destroyer of all sin,
 the supreme Ishvara, who wears the hide of the king of elephants
 as an excellent garment, from whose matted locks of hair the waters of
 gangA devI are springing forth, who is mahAdeva, the great God, the enemy
 of kAma (i.e. the destroyer of lust).

 The name "pashupati" is fascinating. Let us explore it further.

 BhaTTa bhAskara, in his commentary on the shrIrudra, quotes the shruti
 text defining "pashupati"

 "yeshhAmIshe pashupatiH pashUnAM chatushhpadAmuta cha dvipadAM"

 He is Pashupati who is the lord of "pashus" both four-footed
 as well as two-footed.

 In this sense, we humans, are also "pashus", not just the animals.

 Also, the linga purANa states:

 brahmAdyAH sthAvarAntAshcha pashavaH parikIrtitAH |
 teshhAM patitvAdvishvesho bhavaH pashupatiH smR^itaH ||

 All beings beginning from BrahmA to the immovables (such as
 a clump of grass) are called pashu's. Being the Lord of the
 pashu's, Bhava (Shiva), the ruler of the world, is called Pashupati.

 The mahAbhArata states:

 sarvadA yatpashUnpAti taishcha yadramate punaH |
 teshhAmadhipatitvAchcha tasmAtpashupatiH smR^itaH ||

 He sports with the pashu's as He protects them always.
 Since He is the Lord of them, He is said to be Pashupati.

 An explanation of "pashu" and "Pashupati" is also found in the
 jAbAlyupanishhad of the sAma veda:

 (jAbAli says:)

 pashupatirahaMkArAvishhTaH saMsArI jIvaH |

 The lord of pashus (Shiva) (acting as if) under
 the influence of ahaMkAra (ego, individuality)
 is the jIva (individual soul) (revolving) in
 worldly existence.

 sa eva pashuH |

 That (jIva) is himself a "pashu" (literally animal).

 sarvaGYaH paJNchakR^ityasaMpannaH
 sarveshvara IshaH pashupatiH |

 The all-knowing Ishvara, the lord of all, and
 enodowed with the (power of performing) the five
 kinds of actions is called pashupatiH (the lord of
 the jIvas or pashus).

 upanishhad brahma yogin in his commentary quotes the
 vArtikakAra :

 kAraNaM kAryamutpAdya kAryatAmiva gachchhati iti
 vArtikakArokteshcha |

 The cause, having given rise to the effect, seems to
 become the effect - so says the vArtikakAra.

 ke pashava iti punaH sa tamuvAcha ||

 (PaippalAdi) again asked (jAbAli): Who are the
 pashu's?

 jIvAH pashava uktAH | tatpatitvAt.h pashupatiH ||

 The jIvas are pashu's. (Shiva) is called pashupati,
 being the lord of those (pashu's).

 sa punastaM hovAcha kathaM jIvAH pashava iti |
 kathaM tatpatiriti ||

 (PaippalAdi) again asked: How are those jIvas
 the pashu's?

 sa tamuvAcha yathA tR^iNAshino vivekahInAH para-
 preshhyAH kR^ishhyAdikarmasu niyuktAH sakala-
 duHkhasahAH svasvAmibadhyamAnA gavAdayaH pashavaH |
 yathA tatsvAmina iva sarvaGYa IshaH pashupatiH ||

 (jAbAli) replied: Just as animals such as cows
 that eat grass, etc., that are devoid of discrimina-
 tion, that are driven by others, that are engaged
 in occupations such as agriculture, that endure
 all kinds of pain and sorrow, and that are bound
 by their master, (so are the jIvas, the pashu's).
 Just as the master of such animals is "pashupati"
 so the all-knowing Ishvara the pashupati of the
 jIvas.

 upanishhad brahma yogin answers the question:
 What is pAsha, the chain that binds the pashu's?

 svAGYAnapAshena badhyanta iti pashavaH

 Because they are bound by the pAsha (chain) of ignorance of the
 Self, they are called pashu's.

 The name "pApanasha" is also very significant. There is the
 saying of YAjnavalkya that is often cited in connection with
 the japa of the shatarudrIya:

 surApaH svarNahArI cha rudrajApI jale sthitaH |
 sahasrashIrShAjApI cha muchyate sarvakilbiShaiH ||

 (Even a sinner such as) one who has drunk liquor or one who
 has stolen gold (ie. has committed theft) is released from all
 sin if he recites the shrIrudra and puruShasUkta, standing in
 the water (of a river, etc.)

 Further, the jAbAlyupaniShad states that the shrIrudra gives
 rise to jnAna (jnAnahetu). In answer to the question "kiM
 japyena-amR^itatvamashnute?" (By the japa of what is immortality
 attained?), it is said: "shatarudrIyeNa", by the shatarudrIya hymn.

 maheshaM sureshaM surArAtinAshaM
 vibhuM vishvanAthaM vibhUtyaN^gabhUSham.h |
 virUpAxamindvarkavahnitrinetraM
 sadAnandamIDe prabhuM paJNchavaktram.h || 2 ||

 I praise the maheshvara, controller of mAyA (vide the shruti mAyinaM
 tu maheshvaram.h), the Lord of gods, who destroys the enemies of
 gods, the all-pervading Lord, the Lord of the universe, whose limbs
 are decorated with vibhUti, who has three eyes made of the moon, sun,
 and fire, who is eternal bliss, and is the five-faced Lord.

 The panchavaktra being referred to here is really the pancha
 Brahman celebrated in the pancharudrIya mantra beginning with
 "sadyojAtaM prapadyAmi ...". These five Brahmans are 1) sadyojAta
 2) vAmadeva 3) aghora 4) tatpuruSha, and 5) IshAna.



>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:42:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 5: Tatpurusha
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Sat, 17 Feb 2001, V.M.Sundaram wrote:

> I beg your pardon, Jaladharji. There seems to be some mix up here.
>

Yes unfortunately :(

> Soon after the incident of the candaala in kaashi, shankara composed the
> stotra called maniishhaa pancakam . (five stanza-s)
>
> The refrain cidaananda ruupaH shivoham shivoham occurs in his
> nirvaaNa shhatkam (six stanza-s).
>
> The dasha-shlokii stuti (ten stanza-s) is yet another of shankara's
> compositions , in which each stanza ends with the refrain :
> tasmin me hR^dayam sukhena ramataam saambe parabrahmaNi
> [may my mind be absorbed in that supreme reality accompanied by Mother].
>

According to the Vani Vilasa edition of the complete works of
Shankaracharya, it turns out there are two works of Shankaracharya called
Dashashloki, the one you mention and another one which has the refrain
"tadeko'vashishtah shivah kevalo'ham" The Brhatstotraratnakara also calls
this second one, Nirvanadashakam. It is this stotra that Swami
Madhusudana Saraswati commented on. In the forward to the edition of the
Siddhantabindu I have the editor recounts the story of the Chandala in the
context of this stotra. But other sources associate it, as you say, with
the manishapanchakam.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:49:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Vaidyanatha - Lord of physicians

Sorry I didn't post a name last night but after managing to avoid getting
sick all winter, I came down with the flu. Which is why I think it is
appropriate that the next name i've selected is Vaidyanatha!

 In the Kotirudra Samhita of the Shiva Mahapurana, it is said that Ravana
the king of the Rakshasas was a great Shivabhakta. He went to Kailasa to
perform tapa to please Shiva Bhagawan. But an angry, belligerent person
cannot succeed in tapa. After many fruitless years Ravana grew so angry
he tried to uproot Mt. Kailasa. Shiva Bhagawan however merely pressed down
with his toe and Ravana was squashed under the mountain. Chastened, he
decided to try a different way. Ravana had 10 heads and he resolved to
cut them off one by one and offer them as a sacrifice. He cut off 9 and
was about to do the same for the 10th when Shiva Bhagawan appeared and
said enough, I am pleased with your devotion, what do you wish? I will
grant it."

Ravana asked for something that would make him immortal and invincible.
So Shiva Bhagawan gave him a lingam and told Ravana to take it to his
palace in Lanka. He warned him not to put the lingam down even for a
second or it would get rooted to the spot. As Ravana took the lingam, his
nine severed heads miraculously were restored so happily he set forth back
to Lanka. But along the way his eyes suddenly started watering and his
nose began dripping. Still he walked on, trying to carry the lingam with
one hand and blow his nose with the other. Finally he couldn't take it
anymore. (A situation I heartily sympathize with right now :-) He
spotted a young cowherd boy and asked him to hold his precious load while
he composed himself. The boy (who it turned out was Ganesh Bhagawan who
had caused the cold in the first place) took the lingam, set it down and
ran off as fast as he could. Ravana tried in vain to pick it up again but
it was no good, it was firmly stuck in place. So he had to return home
empty-handed.

[Note: As mentioned, this story occurs in the Shiva Mahapurana in the
context of Vaidyanatha Jyotirlinga. However I have also heard the same
story told about Gokarna tirtha. Supposedly in his futile attempt to pick
up the lingam again, Ravana distorted it into the shape of a cows ear (go
karna)]

Although Ravana engaged in bhakti and tapa on a monumental scale, it was
tainted. He did it for selfish reasons not out of pure love of God. Thus
its rewards turned out to be in vain. Because Bhagawan doesn't play
favorites with His creations. He impartially alots them the consequences
of their karma. For those who do not live a dharmic life no amount of
magic objects or weapons or tricks will stave off their inevitable doom.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:11:20 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> Vaidyanatha - Lord of physicians
>
> Sorry I didn't post a name last night but after managing to avoid getting
> sick all winter, I came down with the flu.

 Jaladharji, praNaams.
 All members of this list pray that you be rid of your flu soon.

 Vaidyanatha is the supreme bhishhak ( physician). Not only for bodily
ailments,
 He also cures the disease called samsaara.
 He is therefore called bhava-roga-haraH.

 Going back to the previous names ,
 (i) the name mahaakaala indicates that He is kaalaatiita - transcends Time.
 There are legends about his having admonished yama (god of death), earning
Him the
 epithets like KaalaantakaH, kaala-samhara-murtiH, etc.
 (ii) Tripura-sundari means the spouse of tripuraari. In the
muuka-panca-shati stotram
 She is addressed as pura-hara-jaaye -- jaaya means wife, pura-hara is the
same as
(tri) puraari or tripuraantaka.


>
> [Note: As mentioned, this story occurs in the Shiva Mahapurana in the
> context of Vaidyanatha Jyotirlinga. However I have also heard the same
> story told about Gokarna tirtha. Supposedly in his futile attempt to pick
> up the lingam again, Ravana distorted it into the shape of a cows ear (go
> karna)]

 Another legend refers to this lingam as the one at Rameshwaram and that it
 was worshipped by Rama on his way back from Lankaa !



>From ns.sridhar at i...
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:05:22 +0530
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: ns.sridhar at i...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit




Regarding the last para in Shri Jaldhar's message, the same story of Ravana
carrying the Linga is narrated as the Sthal Purana of Gokarna. Gokarna is a holy
city on the west coast of India. However, in the story mentioned in Gokarna, it
is said that Ravana has to carry out his daily ablutions and requests Ganesh
Bhagwan, who is in the form of a Brahmachari to hold the Linga for him till he
comes back. Ganesh Bhagwan agrees with a condition that if Ravana gets delayed,
he will call out thrice and in case Ravana does not come back, he will place it
on the ground. Ganesh Bhagwan waits for some time and then calls out to Ravana
thrice. However, since Ravana has gone towards the sea, he does not hear Ganesh
Bhagwan. After coming back and seeing the Linga placed on ground, Ravana gets
angry and hits Ganesh on his head with his knuckles. It is due to this fact that
the idol of Ganesh Bhagwan is in standing position (normally, the idol of Ganesh
Bhagwan is in sitting posture in South India) and on the head of this idol, you
can find a depression. Unlike other temples in South India, here in Gokarna, you
are allowed to go into the Garbagriha and perform pooja to the idols yourself. I
have had the opportunity of visiting Gokarna around 20 years back and the above
is based on my recollection of my visit.

Regards

N. SRIDHAR





|------------->
|(Embedded |
|image moved |
|to file: |
|pic11191.pcx)|
| |
|------------->
 >------------------------------------------------------------------------|
 |"Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> |
 |2001/02/19 11:19 AM |
 >------------------------------------------------------------------------|



Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
 <ADVAITA-L at b...>

Vaidyanatha - Lord of physicians

Sorry I didn't post a name last night but after managing to avoid getting
sick all winter, I came down with the flu. Which is why I think it is
appropriate that the next name i've selected is Vaidyanatha!

 In the Kotirudra Samhita of the Shiva Mahapurana, it is said that Ravana
the king of the Rakshasas was a great Shivabhakta. He went to Kailasa to
perform tapa to please Shiva Bhagawan. But an angry, belligerent person
cannot succeed in tapa. After many fruitless years Ravana grew so angry
he tried to uproot Mt. Kailasa. Shiva Bhagawan however merely pressed down
with his toe and Ravana was squashed under the mountain. Chastened, he
decided to try a different way. Ravana had 10 heads and he resolved to
cut them off one by one and offer them as a sacrifice. He cut off 9 and
was about to do the same for the 10th when Shiva Bhagawan appeared and
said enough, I am pleased with your devotion, what do you wish? I will
grant it."

Ravana asked for something that would make him immortal and invincible.
So Shiva Bhagawan gave him a lingam and told Ravana to take it to his
palace in Lanka. He warned him not to put the lingam down even for a
second or it would get rooted to the spot. As Ravana took the lingam, his
nine severed heads miraculously were restored so happily he set forth back
to Lanka. But along the way his eyes suddenly started watering and his
nose began dripping. Still he walked on, trying to carry the lingam with
one hand and blow his nose with the other. Finally he couldn't take it
anymore. (A situation I heartily sympathize with right now :-) He
spotted a young cowherd boy and asked him to hold his precious load while
he composed himself. The boy (who it turned out was Ganesh Bhagawan who
had caused the cold in the first place) took the lingam, set it down and
ran off as fast as he could. Ravana tried in vain to pick it up again but
it was no good, it was firmly stuck in place. So he had to return home
empty-handed.

[Note: As mentioned, this story occurs in the Shiva Mahapurana in the
context of Vaidyanatha Jyotirlinga. However I have also heard the same
story told about Gokarna tirtha. Supposedly in his futile attempt to pick
up the lingam again, Ravana distorted it into the shape of a cows ear (go
karna)]

Although Ravana engaged in bhakti and tapa on a monumental scale, it was
tainted. He did it for selfish reasons not out of pure love of God. Thus
its rewards turned out to be in vain. Because Bhagawan doesn't play
favorites with His creations. He impartially alots them the consequences
of their karma. For those who do not live a dharmic life no amount of
magic objects or weapons or tricks will stave off their inevitable doom.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>







[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:05:30 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


haello !

your attachment came out blank.

please re-send

rgds

R. Jai Simman
Singapore

----- Original Message -----
From: "N. Shridhar" <ns.sridhar at I...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at A...>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 5:35 PM
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha


>
>
> Regarding the last para in Shri Jaldhar's message, the same story of
Ravana
> carrying the Linga is narrated as the Sthal Purana of Gokarna. Gokarna is
a holy
> city on the west coast of India. However, in the story mentioned in
Gokarna, it
> is said that Ravana has to carry out his daily ablutions and requests
Ganesh
> Bhagwan, who is in the form of a Brahmachari to hold the Linga for him
till he
> comes back. Ganesh Bhagwan agrees with a condition that if Ravana gets
delayed,
> he will call out thrice and in case Ravana does not come back, he will
place it
> on the ground. Ganesh Bhagwan waits for some time and then calls out to
Ravana
> thrice. However, since Ravana has gone towards the sea, he does not hear
Ganesh
> Bhagwan. After coming back and seeing the Linga placed on ground, Ravana
gets
> angry and hits Ganesh on his head with his knuckles. It is due to this
fact that
> the idol of Ganesh Bhagwan is in standing position (normally, the idol of
Ganesh
> Bhagwan is in sitting posture in South India) and on the head of this
idol, you
> can find a depression. Unlike other temples in South India, here in
Gokarna, you
> are allowed to go into the Garbagriha and perform pooja to the idols
yourself. I
> have had the opportunity of visiting Gokarna around 20 years back and the
above
> is based on my recollection of my visit.
>
> Regards
>
> N. SRIDHAR
>
>
>
>
>
> |------------->
> |(Embedded |
> |image moved |
> |to file: |
> |pic11191.pcx)|
> | |
> |------------->
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------|
> |"Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...>
|
> |2001/02/19 11:19 AM
|
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------|
>
>
>
> Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
> <ADVAITA-L at b...>
>
> To: ADVAITA-L at L...
> cc: (bcc: NS Sridhar/BAN/INABB/ABB)
> Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha
>
> Security Level:? Internal
>
>
>
>
> Vaidyanatha - Lord of physicians
>
> Sorry I didn't post a name last night but after managing to avoid getting
> sick all winter, I came down with the flu. Which is why I think it is
> appropriate that the next name i've selected is Vaidyanatha!
>
> In the Kotirudra Samhita of the Shiva Mahapurana, it is said that Ravana
> the king of the Rakshasas was a great Shivabhakta. He went to Kailasa to
> perform tapa to please Shiva Bhagawan. But an angry, belligerent person
> cannot succeed in tapa. After many fruitless years Ravana grew so angry
> he tried to uproot Mt. Kailasa. Shiva Bhagawan however merely pressed down
> with his toe and Ravana was squashed under the mountain. Chastened, he
> decided to try a different way. Ravana had 10 heads and he resolved to
> cut them off one by one and offer them as a sacrifice. He cut off 9 and
> was about to do the same for the 10th when Shiva Bhagawan appeared and
> said enough, I am pleased with your devotion, what do you wish? I will
> grant it."
>
> Ravana asked for something that would make him immortal and invincible.
> So Shiva Bhagawan gave him a lingam and told Ravana to take it to his
> palace in Lanka. He warned him not to put the lingam down even for a
> second or it would get rooted to the spot. As Ravana took the lingam, his
> nine severed heads miraculously were restored so happily he set forth back
> to Lanka. But along the way his eyes suddenly started watering and his
> nose began dripping. Still he walked on, trying to carry the lingam with
> one hand and blow his nose with the other. Finally he couldn't take it
> anymore. (A situation I heartily sympathize with right now :-) He
> spotted a young cowherd boy and asked him to hold his precious load while
> he composed himself. The boy (who it turned out was Ganesh Bhagawan who
> had caused the cold in the first place) took the lingam, set it down and
> ran off as fast as he could. Ravana tried in vain to pick it up again but
> it was no good, it was firmly stuck in place. So he had to return home
> empty-handed.
>
> [Note: As mentioned, this story occurs in the Shiva Mahapurana in the
> context of Vaidyanatha Jyotirlinga. However I have also heard the same
> story told about Gokarna tirtha. Supposedly in his futile attempt to pick
> up the lingam again, Ravana distorted it into the shape of a cows ear (go
> karna)]
>
> Although Ravana engaged in bhakti and tapa on a monumental scale, it was
> tainted. He did it for selfish reasons not out of pure love of God. Thus
> its rewards turned out to be in vain. Because Bhagawan doesn't play
> favorites with His creations. He impartially alots them the consequences
> of their karma. For those who do not live a dharmic life no amount of
> magic objects or weapons or tricks will stave off their inevitable doom.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:51:48 -0500
Subject: vedasArashivastava - 3,4,5
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


girIshaM gaNeshaM gale nIlavarNaM
 gavendrAdhirUDhaM guNAtItarUpam.h |
bhavaM bhAsvaraM bhasmanA bhUShitAN^gaM
 bhavAnIkalatraM bhaje paJNchavaktram.h || 3||

I worship the Lord of the (kailAsa) mountain, the Lord of the gaNas,
whose throat is blue, who has mounted a bull (nandI), who is beyond
attributes (guNas), who is the origin of the world, who is resplendent,
whose body is smeared with bhasma (sacred ash), who is the spouse of
bhavAnI and who is the five-faced Lord.

In this verse, an important point is introduced regarding upAsana.
What is upAsana? This is loosely translated into "worship" and this
term "worship" means different things to different people. For some,
it is just going to the temple and getting a coconut broken and
offered to the deity. For some, it is what you give in return for something
you expect from God. "If God gives me such and such a thing, I will
offer Him such and such a worship at this sacred place."

Because of the ambiguity in deciding what exactly is upAsana, we have
to look at what Shankara gives as a definition:

upaasanaM naama samaanapratyayapravaahakaraNam.h (suutra bhaashhya 4.1.7)

 Making similar ideas flow (continuously) is called upaasana.

Being defined this way, upAsana is close to dhyAna which Shankara
defines as:

tailadhArAvat.h santato .avichchhinnapratyayo dhyAnam.h,

dhyAna (meditation) is the continuous and unbroken thought, like the
flow of oil - (Shankara's gItA bhAshhya 13.24)

Some may ask: in either definition, Shankara has not used the word
"bhagavAn" or God in reference to upAsana or dhyAna. upAsana or dhyAna
may conceivably be about anything? What has these got to do with God?

See what Shankara says in the sUtra bhAshhya (1.2.14)

 nirguNamapi sadbrahma naamaruupagataiH guNaiH saguNaM upasanaarthaM
 tatra tatra upadishyate...

 Even though Brahman is nirguNa, yet It is instructed as possessing
 qualities of name and form, ie. saguNa, for the purpose of meditation
 by various texts.

So for purposes of upAsana/meditation, Brahman is taught as having
name and form. A question may be asked: Brahman/God is present everywhere.
Why should we think of Him as being present only in some specific names
and forms for doing upAsana? If indeed one is so advanced as to fix his/her
mind on just about any name/form then that is excellent. This person does
not need any specific names and forms to meditate on. However, for most
of us, it is difficult to meditate on any general object. So some
specific symbols, such as the OmkAra, are taught.

Therefore, vAchaspati Mishra says in his famous bhAmatIi (on 1.2.14):
 natu nAnAsthAnatvaM nabhasa iva nAnAsUchIpAshA-
 disthAnatvam.h | visheshhatastu brahmaNastAni tAnyupAsanAsthAnAnIti
 tairasya yukto vyapadeshaH || (bhAmatI)
 The many places assigned (to Brahman) are not just like the many
 places, such as the eye of a needle, in which space occurs. The specialty
 of the places where Brahman is said to occur (specifically) is as places
 for (being utilized in) upAsana. By (virtue of being places for use in
 upAsana), the mention of such places is appropriate.

 VAchaspati argues that the mention of certain places as the "abode" of
 Brahman is not the same as casual mention of Brahman's existing in
 different places. It is not the same as saying "Brahman exists everywhere;
 It is also in the OMkAra." There is a specialty associated with places that
 are mentioned specifically. And what is this specialty? As a utility for
 upAsana.


shivAkAnta shaMbho shashAN^kArdhamaule
 maheshAna shUlin.h jaTAjUTadhArin.h |
tvameko jagadvyApako vishvarUpa
 prasIda prasIda prabho pUrNarUpa || 4 ||

O Beloved of PArvatI! O shaMbhu! O Bearer of the crescent moon!
O Great Lord! O Wielder of the trishUla! O Wearer of matted locks!
You are the One pervader of the everything in the world, O VishvarUpa
(One who is present everywhere)! Be gracious, O Lord who are Infinite!

Ishvara is only One, without a second, as the shvetAshvatara
upaniShad says:

 eko hi rudro na dvitIyAya tasthurya imAn lokAnIshata IshanIbhiH |

 Rudra (Ishvara) is indeed one (unique), who rules these worlds
 by His divine powers. (Knowing this) they (the knowers of
 Brahman) did not wait for a second (deity).

parAtmAnamekaM jagadbIjamAdyaM
 nirIhaM nirAkAramoMkAravedyam.h |
yato jAyate pAlyate yena vishvaM
 tamIshaM bhaje lIyate yena vishvam.h || 5 ||

I worship the One ParamAtmA, the Ishvara, the primeval cause of the
world, One without desires, One without form, (but still) One who can
be known through the praNava (OmkAra), from whom the universe
originates, by whom it is maintained, and by whom it is destroyed.

This verse makes reference to the Brahma sUtra "janmAdyasya yataH"
(that from which the origin, etc. of the world takes

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:39:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Ramiya Iyer
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


namaste,

I'm a Java Developer, working for Spincircuit Inc,
based in San Jose, CA. Moved to US last year and kind
of disillusioned with capitalistic attitude of people
around.

My family has alway worshiped the Adi SankarAcArya. As
a child used to think of him as another form of GOD
without actually knowing his preachings. Developed
interest and understanding of advaita philosophy,
after seeing the movie on Adi SankarAcArya.

In India it was easy to be part of a sat-sangth or to
seek advice/clarification when one needed. Here
sometimes feel very empty morally.

Want to be part of this mailing list to improve my
understanding of advaita philosophy and seek few
clarification.

Hari Om,
Ramiya

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:50:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 7: Vastoshpati
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Vastoshpati - Lord of the dwelling

When we buy or rent a new house, it is not considered fit to dwell in
until we do vastupuja. This rite is dedicated to the vastupurusha or
spirit of the house who is none other than Bhagawan Rudra Himself.

A famous part of the Vedas is the sukta known as Shatarudriyam or Namaka.
It is part of the Yajurveda and occurs in slightly different forms in the
Shuklayajurveda (more prevalent amongst Brahmanas in the North parts of
India) and Krshnayajurveda (more prevalent amongst Brahmanas of the South.)
It is generally chanted in Shivalayas and on occasions when puja or
abhisheka of Shiva Bhagawan is to be done. However it is a little known
fact that it is actually asking Shiva Bhagawan to go away!

The Vedic mantras are collected in the Samhita portion of each Vedic
shakha. For instance the Shatarudriyam is the 16th adhyaya of the
Vajasaneyi Samhita of the Shuklayajurveda. The next part of a shakha is
called Brahmana and deals with the use of mantras in yajnas of various
sorts. The Shuklayajurveda has Shatapathabrahmana. The other two parts
are aranyakas which deal with upasana and upanishads which as is well
known deal with Brahman. The distinction is not always clear cut. For
instance in the Shuklayajurveda, Ishopanishad is the 40th adhyaya of the
Vajasaneyi Samhita, and Brhadaranyakopanishad is both the aranyaka and
upanishad and forms the concluding chapters of the Shatapathabrahmana.

Anyway, this Shatapathabrahmana discusses the Shatarudriyam in the context
of the Vedic yajna called Agnichayana. It says Shatarudriyam means
Shantadaivatam. "That which placates the divinity" What is the meaning
of this? Agnichayana is one of the most elaborate and powerful yajnas and
involves building a vedi (altar) in the shape of a bird. Now the
important thing about a yajna is to give of yourself. This is why it is
translated as sacrifice. If you didn't give anything or you gave things
that didn't belong to you, it wouldn't be much of a sacrifice would it?
Ravana was even prepared to sacrifice his own heads to the Lord. That is
the true spirit of yajna. In this Agnichayana, a vedi has to be
built. But where? All the earth is the property of Shankara Bhagawan.
So before the Agnichayana proper starts a preliminary Rudrayaga is to be
done using the shatarudriya mantras to vacate the premises in peace so the
yajna may continue fruitfully.

Even today in yajnas and pujas - vedokta, puranokta or tantrokta, when
entering a new house, consecrating a new mandir, or erecting a lagna
mandapa, we always remember that patch of lands true owner and only when
He has given His permission for us to take temporary ownership can we go
ahead and use it.

Om Vastoshpataye namah

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:05:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 8: Gangadhara
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Gangadhara - He who carries the Ganga

In order to make up for the night I missed, I'm posting an extra name
tonight.

According to the shastras, a King who wishes to be considered a samrat
(emperor) or chakravarti (world-conqueror) must perform the yagna known as
ashvamedha. In this yajna a white horse is sacrificed. But before this
happens it must be led to the borders of the kingdom and allowed to roam
free (accompanied by guards) for a year. The ruler of whichever place the
horse goes must either a.) submit to the wouldbe samrat or b.) fight the
guards. If he wins then the ashvamedha is over. If he loses, he's either
dead or submitting to the samrat.

There was an illustrious king of the chandravamsha, an ancestor of Shri
Rama, called Sagara who wished to perform this ashvamedha. So the horse
was let loose with due ceremony with the 60,000 sons of King Sagara as
its' guards. In Heaven, Indra king of the Devas watched all this with
some dismay. You see Indra is actually just a particular position. One
attains the Devaloka through ones good karma. Once the fruits of those
good deeds have been exhausted, one again falls back to the earthly world.
One of the names of Indra is Shatakratu - the performer of 100 (ashvamedha)
sacrifices. Because He knew that He had only reached that exalted station
by performing 100 ashvamedhas, He was insecure and jealous of anyone else
who undertook that yagna in case they tried to usurp His place. This is
the fate of anyone who relies too excessively on karma. It can provide
great benefits temporarily but it is perishable and unstable. Indradeva
stole away the sacrifical horse of King Sagara and hid it away in the
ashram of Maharshi Kapila in the Patala (underworld.)

The sons of Sagara searched high and low for the missing horse until they
came to know it was in patala. They dug an immense hole down to patala
until they reached the ashram of Maharshi Kapila. On seeing the horse
there, they suspected the Rshi and rushed upon him. But in an instant he
burnt them all to ashes. On learning what had happened, the sorrowful
King Sagara visited the sage and asked him how his sons could be restored
to life. Kapila Maharshi replied that only the water of the Ganga could
restore them. But the Ganga flowed through Heaven. Sagara spent the rest
of his years trying to figure out how this could be accomplished. He had
one more son, Anshumana who also spent his whole life fruitlessly trying
to bring down the Ganga. Anshumana had a son called Dilipa, himself a
great king in his own right but he too was unsuccessful in the family
mission. His son was Bhagiratha who after much austerity was able to
bring down the Ganga from Heaven.

The goddess Ganga however was quite happy flowing through Heaven and not
too pleased about having to come down to the earth. She resolved to come
down but with such force it would drown the earth and everything on it.
But at the last minute, Shiva Bhagawan stepped underneath and caught the
downward torrent in His hair. Wandering about in His matted locks, Ganga
eventually emerged, still a mighty river, but too exhausted to cause any
major damage. As She flowed over the ashes of the dead sons of Sagara,
they were restored to life. (And incidently the big hole they dug filled
up with water and became know as sagara -- the ocean.)

The water of the Ganga is considered pure and holy as one may well believe
of a river which came from Heaven but after being strained through Shiva
Bhagawans hair? One has reason to doubt. Let's face it Shiva Bhagawan is
not the most well-groomed of our pantheon. While most Gods are depicted
as shining with dazzling clothes and golden crowns and ornaments, Shiva
Bhagawan is garlanded with skulls and dressed in animal skins. He is
covered in ash and has the uncut matted locks of a recluse. In fact the
downpouring of the Ganga may have been the first good wash they ever got!
How can we say such a filter has not made the Ganga water impure? In fact
it made it more pure. While external purity may have its' benefits
both from the hygenic and religious points of view, the true purity -- the
kind of purity Shiva Bhagawan posesses -- is the purity of jnana. Don't
let the outward appearance deceive you. It is the association with the
lord of Jnana that makes the Ganga holy.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:12:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 6: Vaidyanatha
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy wrote:

> haello !
>
> your attachment came out blank.
>
> please re-send

I wouldn't worry about it. It's just something Lotus Notes seems to add
to emails.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From owner-advaita-l at L...
Reply-To: 
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 8: Gangadhara
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:53:39 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: owner-advaita-l at L...


This does not do much good to the mental image of the Gods.

It shows them as egoistic and ready to cause harm to others (Indra, Ganga)
for their own advantage! Where's the godliness then!

I am always amused by the way we depict our Gods. We first mystify them,
consider them apart from us (against advaita) and then attribute them the
same virtues and vices which very much are human! Keep telling these
stories over ages. Where does this lead on the search of knowledge?

Do we think that our common man is so ignorant and lacks intelligence that
can't comprehend the almighty without such names and stories? Why? It seems
to me, the common man is much more closer to God than we, ones who enjoy
talking about God and mysticism till the cows come home!

Regards
Sachin





"Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> (Mailed by: List for advaita
vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>)
02/20/2001 12:05 AM EST
Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
 <ADVAITA-L at b...>

Gangadhara - He who carries the Ganga

In order to make up for the night I missed, I'm posting an extra name
tonight.

According to the shastras, a King who wishes to be considered a samrat
(emperor) or chakravarti (world-conqueror) must perform the yagna known as
ashvamedha. In this yajna a white horse is sacrificed. But before this
happens it must be led to the borders of the kingdom and allowed to roam
free (accompanied by guards) for a year. The ruler of whichever place the
horse goes must either a.) submit to the wouldbe samrat or b.) fight the
guards. If he wins then the ashvamedha is over. If he loses, he's either
dead or submitting to the samrat.

There was an illustrious king of the chandravamsha, an ancestor of Shri
Rama, called Sagara who wished to perform this ashvamedha. So the horse
was let loose with due ceremony with the 60,000 sons of King Sagara as
its' guards. In Heaven, Indra king of the Devas watched all this with
some dismay. You see Indra is actually just a particular position. One
attains the Devaloka through ones good karma. Once the fruits of those
good deeds have been exhausted, one again falls back to the earthly world.
One of the names of Indra is Shatakratu - the performer of 100 (ashvamedha)
sacrifices. Because He knew that He had only reached that exalted station
by performing 100 ashvamedhas, He was insecure and jealous of anyone else
who undertook that yagna in case they tried to usurp His place. This is
the fate of anyone who relies too excessively on karma. It can provide
great benefits temporarily but it is perishable and unstable. Indradeva
stole away the sacrifical horse of King Sagara and hid it away in the
ashram of Maharshi Kapila in the Patala (underworld.)

The sons of Sagara searched high and low for the missing horse until they
came to know it was in patala. They dug an immense hole down to patala
until they reached the ashram of Maharshi Kapila. On seeing the horse
there, they suspected the Rshi and rushed upon him. But in an instant he
burnt them all to ashes. On learning what had happened, the sorrowful
King Sagara visited the sage and asked him how his sons could be restored
to life. Kapila Maharshi replied that only the water of the Ganga could
restore them. But the Ganga flowed through Heaven. Sagara spent the rest
of his years trying to figure out how this could be accomplished. He had
one more son, Anshumana who also spent his whole life fruitlessly trying
to bring down the Ganga. Anshumana had a son called Dilipa, himself a
great king in his own right but he too was unsuccessful in the family
mission. His son was Bhagiratha who after much austerity was able to
bring down the Ganga from Heaven.

The goddess Ganga however was quite happy flowing through Heaven and not
too pleased about having to come down to the earth. She resolved to come
down but with such force it would drown the earth and everything on it.
But at the last minute, Shiva Bhagawan stepped underneath and caught the
downward torrent in His hair. Wandering about in His matted locks, Ganga
eventually emerged, still a mighty river, but too exhausted to cause any
major damage. As She flowed over the ashes of the dead sons of Sagara,
they were restored to life. (And incidently the big hole they dug filled
up with water and became know as sagara -- the ocean.)

The water of the Ganga is considered pure and holy as one may well believe
of a river which came from Heaven but after being strained through Shiva
Bhagawans hair? One has reason to doubt. Let's face it Shiva Bhagawan is
not the most well-groomed of our pantheon. While most Gods are depicted
as shining with dazzling clothes and golden crowns and ornaments, Shiva
Bhagawan is garlanded with skulls and dressed in animal skins. He is
covered in ash and has the uncut matted locks of a recluse. In fact the
downpouring of the Ganga may have been the first good wash they ever got!
How can we say such a filter has not made the Ganga water impure? In fact
it made it more pure. While external purity may have its' benefits
both from the hygenic and religious points of view, the true purity -- the
kind of purity Shiva Bhagawan posesses -- is the purity of jnana. Don't
let the outward appearance deceive you. It is the association with the
lord of Jnana that makes the Ganga holy.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>


This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other
use of the email by you is

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:38:29 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 7: Vastoshpati
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Jaldhar H. Vyas" wrote:

> Vastoshpati - Lord of the dwelling

> However it is a little known
> fact that it is actually asking Shiva Bhagawan to go away!

 None of the mantra-s in the rudra-prashna can be interpreted as asking
 shiva to go away. In fact the relevant portion of the mantra is namo
vastupaaya ca. As per the bhaashhya, vaastu is gR^iha-nirmaaNaartha
bhuumiH ; vaastupaH is tatpaalkaH - protector of the vaastu. It is the
propitiation of rudra in his manifestation as vaastu-purushha that is
meant while reciting the namakam, and not asking him to go away !
The other attendant rituals when a vaastu- shaanti is done are meant for
driving away unwanted spirits like bhuuta-preta-pishaca-adi.

> Om Vastoshpataye namah

 I am eager to know where this naama occurs in this form. I do not find it in
the shatarudriiya,or shiva sahasra naama.

 One more question, Jaladharji. How are you choosing the eleven names of shiva
bhagavan ?
 Is it at random or in any particular order

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:21:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 8: Gangadhara
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Sachin Chavan wrote:

> This does not do much good to the mental image of the Gods.
>

Then perhaps the mental image wasn't too good in the first place.

> It shows them as egoistic and ready to cause harm to others (Indra, Ganga)
> for their own advantage! Where's the godliness then!
>

We are talking about karmadevatas. Their divinity is imperfect because
their means of achieving that divinity is imperfect. Yet that they are
more divine then us sems pretty obvious. How many readers can say they've
brought 60,000 dead people to life? :-)

Brahman pervades everything that exists. Some things like a rock or a
blade of grass are not at all conscious of their divinity. Some like
Shiva Bhagawan or Vishnu Bhagawan are fully aware of it. It follows
that in between there is a wide mix of beings who are only partially
aware. To deny the divinity in them just because it is not perfect is
against advaita vedanta.

> I am always amused by the way we depict our Gods. We first mystify them,

Again be careful of that word "we."

> consider them apart from us (against advaita) and then attribute them the
> same virtues and vices which very much are human! Keep telling these
> stories over ages. Where does this lead on the search of knowledge?
>

It reminds us that power is not the same as knowledge. It reminds us that
attachment to the impermanent, always causes grief, and that maya can
delude even divine beings.

> Do we think that our common man is so ignorant and lacks intelligence that
> can't comprehend the almighty without such names and stories? Why? It seems
> to me, the common man is much more closer to God than we, ones who enjoy
> talking about God and mysticism till the cows come home!

Yet we never hear the "common man" complaining only "we" seem to do so.
Doesn't that tell you something? :-)

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Please do not put the cart before the horse ...
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:12:55 +0800
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From: "Jai Simman s/o R. Rangasamy" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


The pastimes of the Lord and the Devatas are never mundane.
To opine as such shows a clear lack of scriptural understanding.
The devatas being personalities of a higher nature, even their seemingly
abominable acts have a higher significance than the paltry types of
mundaners.
And if we are notice in the scriptures, ultimately nothing is bad in them.
They all end in benedictions and mercy and a chance for a higher goal.

Saying that our actions are thrust onto our projection which goes by the
name of
deities is putting the cart before the horse. The Vedanta Sutra 2nd aphorism
clearly states "janmady asya yataha" - the supreme absolute truth is that
from which
everything has emanated. As such, it is because these personalities who are
either direct or
indirect expansions of the supreme,, have these qualities, that these are
reflected by us.
But in them, the qualities have a higher nature and even in their seeming
badness have something
credible and good to offer in the ultimate issue. But being bound by maya to
a great extent,
our attempts to compare them with us, are another example of how degenerate
we become when we seek to
see cheap imitation and not subservience to their instructions.

The sun drinks urine and yet remains pure but if someone uses this as an
analogy to drink urine,
he becomes contaminated. Lord Shiva drinks aalahaala poison and keeps it in
his throat but we take ganja
and spoil our bodies. so there is no basis for comparison. some rascals
claim to be krishna simply by dancing with a million women but let them lift
govardhana hill and then talk !

exalted persons are to be followed but their uncommon acts done as a result
of their being ishvara are not meant for
imitation. we have to get this into our block heads if spiritual advancement
is to be had.

R. Jai Simman
Singapore


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sachin Chavan" <sachin.chavan at A...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at A...>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 8: Gangadhara


> This does not do much good to the mental image of the Gods.
>
> It shows them as egoistic and ready to cause harm to others (Indra, Ganga)
> for their own advantage! Where's the godliness then!
>
> I am always amused by the way we depict our Gods. We first mystify them,
> consider them apart from us (against advaita) and then attribute them the
> same virtues and vices which very much are human! Keep telling these
> stories over ages. Where does this lead on the search of knowledge?
>
> Do we think that our common man is so ignorant and lacks intelligence that
> can't comprehend the almighty without such names and stories? Why? It
seems
> to me, the common man is much more closer to God than we, ones who enjoy
> talking about God and mysticism till the cows come home!
>
> Regards
> Sachin
>
>
>
>
>
> "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> (Mailed by: List for advaita
> vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>)
> 02/20/2001 12:05 AM EST
> Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
> <ADVAITA-L at b...>
>
> To: ADVAITA-L at A...
> cc:
> Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 8: Gangadhara
>
>
> Gangadhara - He who carries the Ganga
>
> In order to make up for the night I missed, I'm posting an extra name
> tonight.
>
> According to the shastras, a King who wishes to be considered a samrat
> (emperor) or chakravarti (world-conqueror) must perform the yagna known as
> ashvamedha. In this yajna a white horse is sacrificed. But before this
> happens it must be led to the borders of the kingdom and allowed to roam
> free (accompanied by guards) for a year. The ruler of whichever place the
> horse goes must either a.) submit to the wouldbe samrat or b.) fight the
> guards. If he wins then the ashvamedha is over. If he loses, he's either
> dead or submitting to the samrat.
>
> There was an illustrious king of the chandravamsha, an ancestor of Shri
> Rama, called Sagara who wished to perform this ashvamedha. So the horse
> was let loose with due ceremony with the 60,000 sons of King Sagara as
> its' guards. In Heaven, Indra king of the Devas watched all this with
> some dismay. You see Indra is actually just a particular position. One
> attains the Devaloka through ones good karma. Once the fruits of those
> good deeds have been exhausted, one again falls back to the earthly world.
> One of the names of Indra is Shatakratu - the performer of 100
(ashvamedha)
> sacrifices. Because He knew that He had only reached that exalted station
> by performing 100 ashvamedhas, He was insecure and jealous of anyone else
> who undertook that yagna in case they tried to usurp His place. This is
> the fate of anyone who relies too excessively on karma. It can provide
> great benefits temporarily but it is perishable and unstable. Indradeva
> stole away the sacrifical horse of King Sagara and hid it away in the
> ashram of Maharshi Kapila in the Patala (underworld.)
>
> The sons of Sagara searched high and low for the missing horse until they
> came to know it was in patala. They dug an immense hole down to patala
> until they reached the ashram of Maharshi Kapila. On seeing the horse
> there, they suspected the Rshi and rushed upon him. But in an instant he
> burnt them all to ashes. On learning what had happened, the sorrowful
> King Sagara visited the sage and asked him how his sons could be restored
> to life. Kapila Maharshi replied that only the water of the Ganga could
> restore them. But the Ganga flowed through Heaven. Sagara spent the rest
> of his years trying to figure out how this could be accomplished. He had
> one more son, Anshumana who also spent his whole life fruitlessly trying
> to bring down the Ganga. Anshumana had a son called Dilipa, himself a
> great king in his own right but he too was unsuccessful in the family
> mission. His son was Bhagiratha who after much austerity was able to
> bring down the Ganga from Heaven.
>
> The goddess Ganga however was quite happy flowing through Heaven and not
> too pleased about having to come down to the earth. She resolved to come
> down but with such force it would drown the earth and everything on it.
> But at the last minute, Shiva Bhagawan stepped underneath and caught the
> downward torrent in His hair. Wandering about in His matted locks, Ganga
> eventually emerged, still a mighty river, but too exhausted to cause any
> major damage. As She flowed over the ashes of the dead sons of Sagara,
> they were restored to life. (And incidently the big hole they dug filled
> up with water and became know as sagara -- the ocean.)
>
> The water of the Ganga is considered pure and holy as one may well believe
> of a river which came from Heaven but after being strained through Shiva
> Bhagawans hair? One has reason to doubt. Let's face it Shiva Bhagawan is
> not the most well-groomed of our pantheon. While most Gods are depicted
> as shining with dazzling clothes and golden crowns and ornaments, Shiva
> Bhagawan is garlanded with skulls and dressed in animal skins. He is
> covered in ash and has the uncut matted locks of a recluse. In fact the
> downpouring of the Ganga may have been the first good wash they ever got!
> How can we say such a filter has not made the Ganga water impure? In fact
> it made it more pure. While external purity may have its' benefits
> both from the hygenic and religious points of view, the true purity -- the
> kind of purity Shiva Bhagawan posesses -- is the purity of jnana. Don't
> let the outward appearance deceive you. It is the association with the
> lord of Jnana that makes the Ganga holy.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
>
>
> This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
> privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error,
> please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other
> use of the email by you is

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:55:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 7: Vastoshpati
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From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, V.M.Sundaram wrote:

> None of the mantra-s in the rudra-prashna can be interpreted as asking
> shiva to go away. In fact the relevant portion of the mantra is namo
> vastupaaya ca. As per the bhaashhya, vaastu is gR^iha-nirmaaNaartha
> bhuumiH ; vaastupaH is tatpaalkaH - protector of the vaastu. It is the
> propitiation of rudra in his manifestation as vaastu-purushha that is
> meant while reciting the namakam, and not asking him to go away !
> The other attendant rituals when a vaastu- shaanti is done are meant for
> driving away unwanted spirits like bhuuta-preta-pishaca-adi.
>

Sorry I don't know if the numbering is different in the Krishnayajurveda
version but mantras 54-63 in the Shuklayajurveda version ask the various
bands of Rudras that inhabit the earth to unstring their bows and depart
1000 yojanas away. Uvatacharya (Shayanacharya has not commented on this
shruti or his commentary is not available.) agrees that this is the
literal meaning and the purpose is to clear the ground for the
Agnichayana. This doesn't mean there can't be other meanings too, just
that this is the meaning in the context of the Agnichayana.

> > Om Vastoshpataye namah
>
> I am eager to know where this naama occurs in this form. I do not
> find it in the shatarudriiya,or shiva sahasra naama.
>

It occurs in the Vedas as a surname of Rudra Bhagawan. According to Aptes
dictionary, of Indra too but I don't know about that. In the Paraskara
Grhyasutra (also belonging to Shuklayajurveda) it says offerings should be
made to Rudra Vastoshpati during the Vastupuja.

> One more question, Jaladharji. How are you choosing the eleven names
> of shiva bhagavan ?
> Is it at random or in any particular order ?
>

There's no real plan. Just the names that illustrate some point I think
readers may be interested in and whatever comes to mind as I write.

I'm also doing this for my own personal education. That's why I really
appreciate feedback and corrections if I am wrong about something.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>
Subject: Why is "Rudra" considered inauspicious?
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:37:09 +0530
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From: "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>


Namaskaram!

In some of the rituals a typical smartha observes, Rudra is considered
inauspicious(though another name Siva means auspicious). Following are the
instances I know.

1. Whenever a homam is performed with "shatpaatra prayogam" in the end(just
before poornahuti) "jayadayaha" is performed. In it there is a mantram
related to Rudra and after reciting it there is a vaakyam
"apaupasprusya"(which means hands should be washed).

2. When "Rudraabhishekam" is performed, Siva Prasada(i.e., Nirmalyam) is
not taken. That is why we recite vaakyam "uttarataha chandishvaraaya
nirmaalyam visrujya". Even theertam and prasadam of Siva is not taken unless
Siva is accompanied by any other dieties like Vishnu,Ganapati,Paarvati
etc., A typical smartha doesn't have problem because he worships
"panchayatana".

Why is this so? I want to know from the learned members of the

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:27:51 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Why is "Rudra" considered inauspicious?
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


"Ramkumar N.S.M." wrote:

> Namaskaram!
>
> In some of the rituals a typical smartha observes, Rudra is considered
> inauspicious(though another name Siva means auspicious). Following are the
> instances I know.

 Dear Shri Ramkumar,
 Rudra is conceived as of a fierce aspect (at
first sight) and so
one does everything to avoid his being angry with you. The prayer called rudram

(shatarudriiyam) itself starts with namaste rudra manyave - Oh rudra, I make
my
obeisance to your anger (manyu means anger). It then proceeds to worship his
peaceful and auspicious aspect (shivaa tanuuH).
 There is a belief that taking away anything
that belongs
to rudra ,even by mistake, is bound to invoke His wrath. That is why when you
visit
a Shiva temple, you go to the shrine of candikeshwara and clap your hands before

leaving the temple. This is done to prove (and make sure) that you are not
carrying
away any particle of temple property.
 The same way, after making any aahuti
(oblation) to rudra saying
- rudraaya svaahaa, rudraaya idam na mama - (this is for rudra, it is no longer
mine),
 you wipe your hands with water and make sure no bit of what you offered to
rudra
is sticking to your hand even by mistake. This is done in any homam when aahuti
is made
to rudra .

Regards
V.M.Sundaram



>
>
> 1. Whenever a homam is performed with "shatpaatra prayogam" in the end(just
> before poornahuti) "jayadayaha" is performed. In it there is a mantram
> related to Rudra and after reciting it there is a vaakyam
> "apaupasprusya"(which means hands should be washed).
>
> 2. When "Rudraabhishekam" is performed, Siva Prasada(i.e., Nirmalyam) is
> not taken. That is why we recite vaakyam "uttarataha chandishvaraaya
> nirmaalyam visrujya". Even theertam and prasadam of Siva is not taken unless
> Siva is accompanied by any other dieties like Vishnu,Ganapati,Paarvati
> etc., A typical smartha doesn't have problem because he worships
> "panchayatana".
>
> Why is this so? I want to know from the learned members of the group.
>
> Namaskaram.
>

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:44:04 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1A
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
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 Notes on BSB I-i-4-1A

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .
 suutra 1: tat tu samanvayaat.h .

The fourth adhikaraNam also has one suutram. This adhikaraNam is
called samanvaya adhikaraNam based on the suutra tat tu
samanvayaat.h . First the general analysis, then the word analysis
and then the conclusion.

General Analysis - This suutra is the key or important suutra based
on which the entire first chapter containing 134 suutra -s is
developed. This being the fourth suutra , one can consider the rest
of the 130 suutra -s that follow are only an elaboration of this
suutra alone. Based on this suutra only, the first chapter is named
as samanvaya adhyaayaH . The second suutra - janmaad yasya yataH is
the foundation suutra on which the entire Brahmasutra is based. The
entire first chapter is based on this fourth suutra. Thus we find
among the first four suutra -s two very important suutra -s. Thus
according to a tradition if a person cannot study the entire
Brahmasutra, at least one should study the first four suutra -s. The
first four suutra -s put together is known as chatuH-suutrii . There
are many books just dealing with these four suutra -s or
chatuH-suutrii alone. In the third suutra Vyasacharya has mentioned -
shaastra yonitvaat - and we saw two meanings for this - shaastra
kaaraNatvaat and shaastra vishhayatvaat. Of these two, we will be
taking now the second meaning for further development. shaastra
vishhayatvaat means Brahman is the central theme of Vedanta shaastram
.

Now the question is how one can say that Brahman is the central theme
of Vedanta shaastram ? When many topics are discussed in a
shaastram how can one arrive at the central theme or topic among all
the topics that are discussed. Sometimes the central theme is very
evident but often it is not. For example, in Bhagavat Gita, various
topics, karma yoga, bhakti yoga, j~naana yoga are discussed.
Krishna in fact emphasizes while discussing each one as if that
particular yoga is the most important among all others. If so, what
is the central theme of Bhagavat Gita? Normally a shaastra should
have only one central theme and the rest of the topics become
subservient to that theme. If there are more than one theme, then it
is considered as a defect according to miimaa.nsaka -s, and the
defect is called ' vaakya bheda doshhaH '. There is a big
controversy regarding Gita as to what is the central theme - karma
or bhakti or j~naana. Several scholars consider karma is the
central theme while bhakti and j~naanam are subservient (in contrast
to Bhagavatam where bhakti is the central theme). Shree Ramanuja
emphasizes Bhakti as the central theme while karma and j~naanam are
subservient, and Shree Shankara emphasizes j~naanam while the other
two are subservient to j~naanam. If one includes impartially all
the yoga-s, then one can say that yoga shaastra or brahmavidyaa is
the central theme of the Giita. The question that remains is how
does one determine which is the central theme of a given shaastra ?
If author is available or has written a commentary on his own work
then the question can be easily answered. Veda-s being
apaurushheyam the author is not readily available to answer. In all
these cases our acharya-s have pointed that there is one method by
which a central theme can be arrived at. The central theme is the
one that fulfils
one important condition and that is called ' samanvayaH '. It is a
technical term, which will be analyzed in detail when we come to the
word analysis. SamanvayaH means taatparya vishhayatvam or nearest
translation to the word is consistency or a compromised meaning is
'importance'. Next question that arises is how does one know which
theme enjoys the importance. The answer is it is that which fulfills
six factors of proofs called ' shhaD li~Ngaani '. Vyasa says Brahman
is the central theme since it fulfills the six factors of proof. The
general meaning of this suutra is Brahman is the central theme of
Vedanta shaastram because it enjoys the importance ( samanvaya ).

This idea can be presented as anumaana vaakyam - brahma vedaanta
shaastra vishhayaH, samanvayaat , dharmavat . Brahman is the
central theme of the upanishads since it enjoys the samanvaya just
as dharma in the puurvamiimaa.nsaa.

The vishhaya vaakyam (the upanishhaD vaakya on which this suutra is
based on) for this suutra consists of the entire upanishhaD mantra
-s since we are talking about importance of the entire vedaanta
shaastram. This concludes the general analysis of the suutra.

Now the word analysis.

There are three words - tat tu samanvayaat . We have to supply the
fourth word for the completion of the statement and that fourth word
is shaaastrayoni . The complete suutra reads tat tu shaastrayoni
samanvayaat. The meaning is that the Brahman is the subject matter
of Vedanta because it has importance. tat means that - a pronoun
that stands for a noun. Since no other noun is specified here it
refers to whatever noun that was discussed in the three previous
suutra -s is the noun that is being referred to here. That noun is
Brahman since discussion of the three previous suutra-s are centered
on this noun only. In the first suutra Brahman is discussed as an
object of inquiry, in the second suutra discussion was centered on
Brahma lakshaNam that is jagat kaaraNam , and in the third suutra
also we discussed Brahman as shaastra kartaa and hence sarvaj~nam
and sarvashakti. The word tat indicates that Brahman. Hence the
meaning of tat is vichaaryam, jagat kaaraNam , veda kartR^i ,
sarvaj~nam , sarvashakti brahma shaastra vishhayaH. We have to bring
the two words shaastra vishhayaH from the previous suutra - this is
called anuvR^itti . A simple example of anuvR^itti is - Rama went to
temple; Krishna also. Krishna also gives the complete meaning since
we borrow from the previous sentence the words 'went to temple'. In
suutra literature this anuvR^itti is used extensively to shorten the
words. This completes the meaning of the word ' tat '.

The next word is ' tu ' - which for convenience we will explain this
word later, although we are supposed to explain the words in the
order present.

The third word is samanvayaat , because Brahman enjoys the
importance or consistency. How does one prove Brahman enjoys
importance in the shaastra ? It can be proved only if the six
factors or shhaD li~Ngaani , are supporting Brahman alone. Hence
Vyasacharya has to show now using the six factors that Brahman is the
central theme. This method of proving the importance or samanvya by
making use of six factors or shhaD li~Ngaani is called miimaa.nsa or
analysis. shhaD li~NgaiH taatparya nirNayaH miimaa.nsaa.
Vyasacharya is going to do that from the fifth suutra onwards. From
suutra 5 up to suutra 134 Vyasacharya will be proving samanvaya .
Since at the rate the notes are being posted and studied it will take
many months before we complete this section on samanvaya (we started
this series six months ago and we are still at suutra 4), Shankara
and the subcommentators briefly provide the proof here itself
   while
commenting the suutra 4. Following Shankara bhaashhya , we will also
therefore do the brief analysis.

This we will take up from the next post.

********
Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>
Subject: Re: Re: Why is "Rudra" considered inauspicious?
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:07:07 +0530
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From: "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>


Dear Sri Sundaram,

In all the homams we do, "idam na mama" follows all swaahaakaras
irrespective of the diety we are offering "havis" to. Not only during homa
but even while offering any "daanam" also "idam na mama" is uttered.

Normally in rituals, "apaupasprusya" is said when there is need to
cleanse/purify ones hands. For eg., In the same "Jayadayaha" there is one
verse related to "pitru devatas". Immiediately after reciting this "apaupa
sprusya" is uttered so that inauspiciousness of uttering a pitru mantra is
ended. Even while doing "Punyaham" also, when maarjanam(sprinkling of water)
is done towards dakshina(south, Yamasthanam), an "apaupa spusya" is uttered.

Therefore there is no doubt that rudra is assosciated with
inauspiciousness(atleast in this context).

Namaskaaram,
Ramkumar
----- Original Message -----
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at P...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: Why is "Rudra" considered inauspicious?


> "Ramkumar N.S.M." wrote:
>
> > Namaskaram!
> >
> > In some of the rituals a typical smartha observes, Rudra is considered
> > inauspicious(though another name Siva means auspicious). Following are
the
> > instances I know.
>
> Dear Shri Ramkumar,
> Rudra is conceived as of a fierce
aspect (at
> first sight) and so
> one does everything to avoid his being angry with you. The prayer called
rudram
>
> (shatarudriiyam) itself starts with namaste rudra manyave - Oh rudra, I
make
> my
> obeisance to your anger (manyu means anger). It then proceeds to worship
his
> peaceful and auspicious aspect (shivaa tanuuH).
> There is a belief that taking away
anything
> that belongs
> to rudra ,even by mistake, is bound to invoke His wrath. That is why
when you
> visit
> a Shiva temple, you go to the shrine of candikeshwara and clap your hands
before
>
> leaving the temple. This is done to prove (and make sure) that you are
not
> carrying
> away any particle of temple property.
> The same way, after making any
aahuti
> (oblation) to rudra saying
> - rudraaya svaahaa, rudraaya idam na mama - (this is for rudra, it is no
longer
> mine),
> you wipe your hands with water and make sure no bit of what you offered
to
> rudra
> is sticking to your hand even by mistake. This is done in any homam when
aahuti
> is made
> to rudra .
>
> Regards
> V.M.Sundaram
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > 1. Whenever a homam is performed with "shatpaatra prayogam" in the
end(just
> > before poornahuti) "jayadayaha" is performed. In it there is a mantram
> > related to Rudra and after reciting it there is a vaakyam
> > "apaupasprusya"(which means hands should be washed).
> >
> > 2. When "Rudraabhishekam" is performed, Siva Prasada(i.e., Nirmalyam)
is
> > not taken. That is why we recite vaakyam "uttarataha chandishvaraaya
> > nirmaalyam visrujya". Even theertam and prasadam of Siva is not taken
unless
> > Siva is accompanied by any other dieties like Vishnu,Ganapati,Paarvati
> > etc., A typical smartha doesn't have problem because he worships
> > "panchayatana".
> >
> > Why is this so? I want to know from the learned members of the group.
> >
> > Namaskaram.
> >

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <msr at c...>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:45:29 -0600
Subject: shiva nirmAlyam
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From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <msr at c...>


shiva prasadena vinA na buddhiH
shiva prasadena vinA na yuktiH
shiva prasadena vinA na siddhiH
shiva prasadena vinA na muktiH
 - suta samhitA

bhuktvAnna.m muktimApnoti bhaktya shiva nivedita.m |
shiva nirmAlya doShastu prAkR^itAnam katheritaH ||

If you have the text of thethiyur subrahmaNya shAstrigaL's
commentary on saundaryalaharI, read the verse 65'
commentary. author quotes various sources and explains what it
exactly means.

To summarize him, only the first portion of the offering whichis
given to chaNDikeshvara should not be taken. Rest is very
auspicious to consume. If someone says the whole thing is not to
be taken, it merely shows their lack of shiva bhakti.

AUM namaH

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:47:38 -0500
Subject: vedasArashivastava - 6, 7
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


na bhUmirna chApo na vahnirna vAyur-
 na chAkAshamAste na tandrA na nidrA |
na grIShmo na shItaM na desho na veSho
 na yasyAsti mUrtistrimUrtiM tamIDe || 6 ||

He (Shiva) is not earth, not water, not fire, not
air, not space, not lethargy, not sleep, not
heat, not cold; He is not in any place and is
without any dress or form. I praise that Shiva
with three forms (as brahmA the creator, as ViShNu the
maintainer, and as Rudra the destroyer).

This verse brings out the meaning of the upaniShad teaching
"neti neti", and again shows that upAsana (worship) is only
relevant for the saguNa Brahman. The nirguNa brahman cannot
be an object of worship as the saguNa Brahman can be.

The "neti neti" expression that describes the "satyasya satyaM",
ie. Brahman which the Truth of truth, in the bR^ihadAraNyaka
upaniShad has been well explained by Shankara in his commentary
on the same (2.3.6).

A question is raised:

nanu kathaM "neti neti" iti shabdAbhyAM satyasya satyaM
nirdidixitamiti|

How can one wish to describe the Truth of truth through
the two words, "neti neti"?

sarvopAdhivisheShApohena - By denying all qualifiers arising from
upAdhi's, ie. limiting factors,

yasminna kashchidvisheSho .asti nAma vA rUpaM vA karma vA bhedo vA
jAtirvA guNo vA|

(The words "neti neti") indicate something that has no characteristic
such as name, form, action, differentiation, class, or qualities.

...
adhyAropitanAmarUpakarmadvAreNa brahma nirdishyate "viGYAnamAnandaM
brahma", "viGYAnaghana eva brahmAtmA " ityevamAdishabdaiH

Brahman is described by superimposed name, form, and action, as
"Consciousness-Bliss is Brahman", "Full of consciousness only",
"Brahman", "Atman", etc.

yadA punaH svarUpameva nirdidixitaM bhavati nirasta-sarvopAdhi-
visheShaM tadA na shakyate kenachidapi prakAreNa nirdeShTum.h |

However, when one wishes to describe the essence of Brahman, devoid
of all distinguishing features arising from limiting factors, then
it is not possible to describe It (Brahman) with any qualifier.

tadA ayamevAbhyupAyo yaduta prAptanirdeshapratiShedhadvAreNa
"neti neti" iti nirdeshaH |

Then, the only solution is to describe it as "neti neti" (not this,
not this), denying all other descriptions that have been arrived at.

yadA punaH svarUpameva nirdidixitaM bhavati nirasta-sarvopAdhi-
visheShaM tadA na shakyate kenachidapi prakAreNa nirdeShTum.h |

However, when one wishes to describe the essence of Brahman, devoid
of all distinguishing features arising from limiting factors, then
it is not possible to describe It (Brahman) with any qualifier.

tadA ayamevAbhyupAyo yaduta prAptanirdeshapratiShedhadvAreNa
"neti neti" iti nirdeshaH |

Then, the only solution is to describe it as "neti neti" (not this,
not this), denying all other descriptions that have been arrived at.


ajaM shAshvataM kAraNaM kAraNAnAM
 shivaM kevalaM bhAsakaM bhAsakAnAm.h |
turIyaM tamaHpAramAdyantahInaM
 prapadye paraM pAvanaM dvaitahInam.h || 7 ||

I resort to Shiva who is unborn, eternal, the cause of all
causes (the primordial cause), auspicious, the One
(without a second), the luminary of the luminaries,
the fourth state (beyond waking, dream, and sleep states),
beyond ignorance, without a beginning or end, supremely pure,
and without any

>From owner-advaita-l at L...
Subject: Is it safe enough to pray to Rudra?
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:11:58 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: owner-advaita-l at L...


Will the learned throw light on this?

We play a cassette on Rudra frequently at our homes. The discussion here on
Rudra makes me wonder if it is right? Please advise.

Regards
Sachin






"V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at P...> (Mailed by: List for advaita
vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>)
02/21/2001 07:27 PM ZE8
Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
 <ADVAITA-L at b...>

"Ramkumar N.S.M." wrote:

> Namaskaram!
>
> In some of the rituals a typical smartha observes, Rudra is considered
> inauspicious(though another name Siva means auspicious). Following are
the
> instances I know.

 Dear Shri Ramkumar,
 Rudra is conceived as of a fierce
aspect (at
first sight) and so
one does everything to avoid his being angry with you. The prayer called
rudram

(shatarudriiyam) itself starts with namaste rudra manyave - Oh rudra, I
make
my
obeisance to your anger (manyu means anger). It then proceeds to worship
his
peaceful and auspicious aspect (shivaa tanuuH).
 There is a belief that taking away
anything
that belongs
to rudra ,even by mistake, is bound to invoke His wrath. That is why when
you
visit
a Shiva temple, you go to the shrine of candikeshwara and clap your hands
before

leaving the temple. This is done to prove (and make sure) that you are not
carrying
away any particle of temple property.
 The same way, after making any aahuti
(oblation) to rudra saying
- rudraaya svaahaa, rudraaya idam na mama - (this is for rudra, it is no
longer
mine),
 you wipe your hands with water and make sure no bit of what you offered to
rudra
is sticking to your hand even by mistake. This is done in any homam when
aahuti
is made
to rudra .

Regards
V.M.Sundaram



>
>
> 1. Whenever a homam is performed with "shatpaatra prayogam" in the
end(just
> before poornahuti) "jayadayaha" is performed. In it there is a mantram
> related to Rudra and after reciting it there is a vaakyam
> "apaupasprusya"(which means hands should be washed).
>
> 2. When "Rudraabhishekam" is performed, Siva Prasada(i.e., Nirmalyam) is
> not taken. That is why we recite vaakyam "uttarataha chandishvaraaya
> nirmaalyam visrujya". Even theertam and prasadam of Siva is not taken
unless
> Siva is accompanied by any other dieties like Vishnu,Ganapati,Paarvati
> etc., A typical smartha doesn't have problem because he worships
> "panchayatana".
>
> Why is this so? I want to know from the learned members of the group.
>
> Namaskaram.
> Ramkumar


This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other
use of the email by you is

>From Raghavendra Hebbalalu <hs_raghavendra at y...>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:17:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: praying to Rudra
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Raghavendra Hebbalalu <hs_raghavendra at y...>


Please read the postings of shrI Anand Hudli on the
shrI rudram in the archives. I am sure your doubts
regarding the 'safety' of worshipping Rudra will be
resolved. Especially read shrI rudram 1.1.

| Om namo bhagavate rudrAya |

__________________________________________________
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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:44:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Is it safe enough to pray to Rudra?
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


Sachin Chavan <sachin.chavan at A...> wrote:

>Will the learned throw light on this?

>We play a cassette on Rudra frequently at our homes. The discussion here on
>Rudra makes me wonder if it is right? Please advise.

Well, it turns out that one need not be that learned to answer this.
Although I feel playing cassettes with vedic mantras does not have the
same effect as actual recitation in person, the thrust of your question,
I believe, is whether listening to the Rudra is right in the first
place. For this we need only look at the example set by the many vedic
pundits affiliated with the Sringeri Math who came here to the US and
performed a grand Ati-Rudra-Maha-Homa, in which the Rudra was recited
a total of 14641 times by 121 Ritviks. It is needless to add that
the main deity of the Homa was Rudra. See the announcement in the
archives:

http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m1749.html

BhaTTa-bhAskara, in his commentary on the rudra, cites several
brAhmaNa texts in support of the rudra homa such as "shatarudrIyaM
juhoti" actually as an injunction to perform the homa with the
shatarudrIya. In fact, the brAhmaNa text says "rudro vA eSha yadagniH"
identifying rudra with agni in which homa is performed.

The shatarudrIya hymn is used at all three levels - 1) karma, during
homa, 2) upAsana/bhakti, as a hymn par excellence during pUjA, and at
the highest level 3) jnAna, by inquiring into the two syllabled word
"shiva" which occurs at the heart of the shatarudrIya, namaH shivAya.

So says a verse regarding the rudra:

 vidyAsu shrutirutkR^iShTA rudraikAdashinI shrutau |
 tatra paJNchAxarI tasyAM shiva ityaxaradvayam.h ||

 Among all vidyAs, the best is the Veda. The Rudra-ekAdashinI,
 the Rudra with 11 anuvAkas, is the best (section) of the Veda.
 In the (Rudra-ekAdashinI), the panchAxarI (namaH shivAya) is the
 best, and in the (panchAxarI), the two-syllabled "shiva" is the
 best.

The whole discussion of whether or not we should worship Rudra and
whether Rudra is auspicious or not is rendered moot, in my opinion.
Equally pointless is to depict Rudra as a terrible and inauspicious
God. Shiva and Rudra are the

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:06:34 -0500
Subject: Re: praying to Rudra
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


Prayer involves the deity, the worshipper and the mode of prayer.
It seems to me that we don't pay much attention to the latter two
aspects of things, which is rather unfortunate. It should be done
in the proper manner, and for the right reasons.

Every form of God has both fierce and benevolent aspects. In a
domestic setting, the advice is usually to emphasize the latter.
Thus, for example, it is advisable not to worship the dancing Siva
in the Ugra-tandava form, but it is fine to worship the form of
Ananda-tandava. Similarly, Vishnu as Narasimha is always fierce,
and rarely worshipped in the home. Vishnu as Krishna is perfect
for domestic worship.

The general thread, if one notices, is to keep away the aspects
that are associated with death and destruction, and to welcome the
images of domestic

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Sudarsanasuri: Webpage announcement
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:58:21 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I have set up a webpage on Sri Sudarsana Suri, the famous Sri Vaishnava
commentator on the Sri Bhashya of Ramanujacharya. Suggestions/ Corrections
are welcome. The URL is

http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/sudarsanasuri.html

Sincerely,

Vishal Agarwal
_________________________________________________________________
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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Totakacharya: Webpage announcement
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 17:49:23 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I have created a webpage on Totakacharya, a direct disciple of Sri
Shankaracharya, at the following URL

http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/totaka.html

Please send me any suggestions or corrections.

Sincerely,

Vishal Agarwal
_________________________________________________________________
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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:30:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Environment in Vedas
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Members,

During my recent trip to India, I met a family friend of ours who is in a very
senior position with the Govt of India. During my conversation, he expressed
interest in knowing what our scriptures say about environment. I explained to
him briefly about the importance given to elements in the scriptures with some
mantras from Sandhyavandanam.

Does anyone know if there is any publication that has comprehesively dealt with
the topic ie., culled verses from Vedas etc and cogently presented a way of how
we should relate ourselves to our environment.

It might be helpful to feed such people with authority with some information.
He is willing to study and implement a few if he is convinced.

May be something good might come out of it.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Old Commentators on Vedantasutras- A Note
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:34:40 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Here are some old passages on various Brahmasutra bhashyas or works on
Vedanta ( I am omitting the bibliographic information of the books I have
referred):

1. Prapanchahridaya:
In an anonymous work called Prapanchahridaya, the following description is
given about the commentators of the Mimamsa Sastra and its various portions:
“The Mimamsa Sastra is contained in a text of 20 chapters. Of these, the
first 16 chapters constitute the Purva Mimamsa.. Of this Mimamsa Sastra, the
Purvakanda deals on issues of Dharma, and is compiled by Jaimini. The last 4
chapters constitute the Uttara Kanda or the Uttara Mimamsa and are compiled
by Vyasa for dealing with the nature of Brahman. On this Mimamsa Sastra of
20 chapters, Bodhayana wrote a Bhasya that bore the name ‘Krtakoti.’ Fearing
that the great length of this commentary would cast it into oblivion,
Upavarsa somewhat abridged it. ‘Even this commentary might be considered too
voluminous for study by people of dull wit’- fearing thus, Devasvamin
considerably abridged Upavarsa’s already abridged commentary considerably.
Bhavadasa also wrote a commentary on Jaimini’s Sastra. Of the 2 kandas
comprising the Dharma Mimamsa Sastra, Sabara wrote a very brief commentary
on the Tantra Kanda (Chaps 1-12), ignoring the second kanda- Samkarsa Kanda.
And likewise, Sankarsana (textual variant- Samkarsa) wrote a brief
commentary on the Devata Kanda. On the Brahma Kanda (Brahma Sutras),
Bhagvatpada (Samkara), Brahmadatta and Bhaskara etc. too wrote commentaries
with different interpretations of the Sutras.”

Significantly, the list does not mention other ancient Vedantins like
Dramida, Tanka etc. who definitely wrote on the Brahmasutras. Also, while
the list of commentators of Purva Mimamsa is chronological, this is not the
case with the list of commentators of Brahma Sutras. For instance, we know
that Brahmadatta preceded Samkara and Bhaskara succeeded him. So, we may
assume that the author of Prapancahrydaya places Samkara at the head of this
list out of regard for him or that the work Bhagavan indeed qualifies
Brahmadatta as well as Bhaskara. In the latter case, the omission of Samkara
would indeed be puzzling.

The list is silent about other ancient Mimamsakas like Bhartmitra and
Bhartrhari. The word ‘api’ while describing the Bhasya of Bhavadasa
indicates that his commentary was an independent work, often at variance
with the traditional mode of interpretation of Purva Mimamsa sutras, but we
cannot be sure of this.

2. Atmasiddhi of Yamunacarya:
“ Even though Bhagavan Badrayana has composed sutras that have precisely the
same purpose (as my present work) and these sutras were explained by the
Bhasyakrt (Dramida Bhasyakrt in some manuscripts), whose language is both
concise and profound, and then they were expounded in great detail by the
Bhagavan Srivatsanka Misra himself whose language is a deep ocean of nyaya (
gambhira nyaya sagar)”.
The text continues- “ Nevertheless, many persons have had their judgment
corrupted by giving their credence to various writings of uneven quality
that have correct and incorrect ideas interwoven through them like warp and
woof, books such as those composed by Acarya Tanka, Bhartrprapanca,
Bhartrmitra, Bhartrhari, Brahmadatta, Samkara, Srivatsanka, Bhaskara etc.
Since persons who have been confused in this way do not understand things as
they really are and have many erroneous conceptions, the undertaking of this
work or discussion with the aim of establishing a (clear, comprehensive and
definitive) understanding (pratipatti) of the (atman and paramatman) is
proper."

In this text, the Bhasyakrt is often identified with Dramidacarya. The way
in which the Bhasyakrt is cited suggests that he is a prestigious authority
of both Yamunacarya as well as his opponents.


The list appears to be chronological. The omission of Kapardi and Guhadeva
is also noteworthy.

3. Vedarthasamgraha of Sri Ramanuja
Bhagavan Ramanujacarya, in his Vedarthasamgraha, mentions six teachers of
Vedanta before him, who were the expounders of Visishtadvaita philosophy.
Their names are given as
1. Bhagavadbodhayana
2. Tanka
3. Dramida
4. Guhadeva
5. Kapardi
6. Bharuchi
At the beginning of his commentary on Brahmasutras ( called the Sribhasya),
he states- “The extensive gloss on the Brahmasutras by Bhagavan Bodhayana
has been abridged by former teachers. In accordance with his views, these
commentary is composed.”

Ramanuja also quotes the views of Vakykara (also called Tanka or
Brahmanandin), Dramida and Bodhayana in Sribhasya and Vedarthasamgraha with
attribution.

4. Yatindramatadipika of Srinivasadasa:
Srinivasadasa (17th Cent. C.E.), in the introduction of his
Yatindramatadipika (, gives a list of teachers as the predecessors of
Ramanuja in propounding the Visishtadvaita Vedanta:
1. Bhagavan Bodhayana
2. Guhadeva
3. Bharuchi
4. Brahmanandin (Tanka)
5. Dramida
6. Sri Parankusa ( Nammalvara Sathakopa)
7. Nathamuni
8. Yamunamuni
9. Ramanuja
Significantly, the name of Kapardi, which occurs in the Vedarthsamgraha, is
missing in this list.

In the epilogue of the same work, Srinivasadasa mentions a list of works (in
chronological order) which he had referred to compose the
Yatindramatadipika. The list is headed by ‘Dramidabhasya’, followed by works
of Nathamuni and so on. Surprisingly, no work of Guhadeva, Bharuchi or Tanka
is mentioned in the list.


5. Sesha, the commentator on the Madhava Vijaya of Narayana Bhatta, states
that Madhavacharya refuted 21 Bhasyas on the Sariraka Sutras that were
written by teachers before him. These are enumerated as-
1. Bharativijaya
2. Samvidaananda
3. Brahmaghosha
4. Shataananda
5. Vaagbhatta
6. Vijaya
7. Rudra Bhatta
8. Vamana
9. Yadava Prakasa
10. Ramanuja
11. Bhartrprapanca
12. Dravida
13. Brahmadatta
14. Bhaskara
15. Pisacha
16. Vrttikara
17. Vijaya Bhatta
18. Visnukranta
19. Vaadindra
20. Madhavadesaka
21. Samkaracarya
The list is clearly non-chronological. For example, the Vrttikaara, the
oldest commentator on the Brahmasutras, is placed in the middle. Moreover,
all these writers did not flourish before Samkaracarya (for instance # 9,
10, 14, 15).

Gathering exact details about the views and personal information on these
ancient teachers is a difficult task. I am in the process of creating
webpages on each of them and the one on Brahmadatta should be up by next
week. For Sundara Pandya and Bharuchi, see the relevant webpages via my
homepage at

http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/homepage.html

(Note that the link of Brahmadatta is not yet active)

Some useful references:


Mimamsaka, Yuddhishthhira; 1977; Mimamsa-sabarabhashyam, Vol. I; Ramalal
Kapoor Trust, Bahalgarh, Distt. Sonepat, Haryana (In Hindi or Sanskrit- see
the introd.)

Kane, P. V.; 1928; Vedanta Commentators before Sankaracarya; “Proceedings
and Transactions, Fifth Indian Oriental Conference”; Vol. 2, pg. 937-953

Pandey, Sangam Lal; 1983; Pre Samkara Advaita Philosophy; Darshan Peeth,
Allahabad, India. First published in 1974. Reprinted in 1983

Thangaswami, R; 1980; Advaita-Vedanta Literature, A Bibliographical Survey;
University of Madras; Madras (In Sanskrit)

Udayvira Shastri; 1970; Vedanta Darsana ka Itihasa; Virajananda Vaidika
Sodha Samsthana; Ghaziabad (Uttar Pradesh)--in Hindi

J. A. B. van Buitenen; Ramanuja’s Vedarthasamgraha; Deccan College
Postgraduate and Research Institute; Poona; 1956 (See appendix and introd.)

S. Kuppuswami Sastri; Bodhayana and Dramidacarya, Two old Vedantins
presupposed by Ramanuja; “Proceedings and Transactions of 3rd Oriendtal
Conference”; Vo. 53, pg. 468-472; 1924

D. H. H. Ingalls; “The Study of Sankaracarya”; “Bhandarkar Oriental Research
Institute”; vol. 33, part 1-4, pg.1-14, 1952; Poona, India

Mysore Hiriyanna; “Fragments of Bhartrprapanca”; Proceedings of All India
Oriental Conference; Vol. 3, pg. 439-450, 1924

Mysore Hiriyanna; “Bhartrprapanca-An old Vedantin”; Indian Antiquary; vol.
53, pgs. 77-86; 1924

A. Sankaran; “The Vrttikaragrantha”; Journal of Oriental Research; Vol. 1,
pg. 283-286; 1927

Mysore Hiriyanna; Brahmadatta: An old Vedantin; Journal of Oriental
Research; Vol. 2, pg. 1-9, 1928

Mysore Hiriyanna; “Fragments from
   Brahmanandin”; “Commemorative Essays
Presented to Prof. Kashinath Bapuji Pathak” Class B. No. 7; Bhandarkar
Institute Press, Poona, India

V. A. Ramaswami Sastri; “Old Vrttikaras on the Purvamimamsasutras”; Indian
Historical Quaterly; Vol. 10, pg. 431-452, 1934

Hajime Nakamure; A History of Early Vedanta Philosophy; Motilal Banarsidass;
Delhi, India

Regards

Vishal

Homepage- http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/homepage.html

_________________________________________________________________
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>From "Biharilal Keshavji Tanna" <rbt at r...>
Subject: Re: Environment in Vedas
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:30:12 +0300
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Biharilal Keshavji Tanna" <rbt at r...>


In response to Brother Subrahmanian's enquiry, there is a book entitled
"Hinduism and Ecology- Seeds of truth" written by Ranchor prime and
available from Motilal Banarsidass publishers Private Limited, who have
bookshops in all major cities in India. ( e-mail: gloryindia at p...)

Also ISKCON have published a book with the same title, which is available
from BBL at c...


Biharilal Tanna



----- Original Message -----
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:30 AM
Subject: Environment in Vedas


> Members,
>
> During my recent trip to India, I met a family friend of ours who is in a
very
> senior position with the Govt of India. During my conversation, he
expressed
> interest in knowing what our scriptures say about environment. I
explained to
> him briefly about the importance given to elements in the scriptures with
some
> mantras from Sandhyavandanam.
>
> Does anyone know if there is any publication that has comprehesively dealt
with
> the topic ie., culled verses from Vedas etc and cogently presented a way
of how
> we should relate ourselves to our environment.
>
> It might be helpful to feed such people with authority with some
information.
> He is willing to study and implement a few if he is convinced.
>
> May be something good might come out of it.
>
> Regards.
> S. V. Subrahmanian.
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

>From "Chaitanya Bhagavat" <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...>
Subject: Re: Environment in Vedas
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:38:27 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Chaitanya Bhagavat" <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...>


>From: Biharilal Keshavji Tanna <rbt at R...>
>
>In response to Brother Subrahmanian's enquiry, there is a book entitled
>"Hinduism and Ecology- Seeds of truth" written by Ranchor prime and
>available from Motilal Banarsidass publishers Private Limited, who have
>bookshops in all major cities in India. ( e-mail: gloryindia at p...)
>
>Also ISKCON have published a book with the same title, which is available
>from BBL at c...

This book is entitled "Divine Nature". I believe it has some quotes from the
Mahabharata, etc.

http://www.webcom.com/~ara/col/catalog/dn.html

Also it is now clear that the animal slaughter industry is very detrimental
to the environment. So you could also think of adding quotes promoting
vegetarianism or ahiMsaa.

Bests,

Chaitanya


>
>
>Biharilal Tanna
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <svsubrahmanian at Y...>
>To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
>Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 5:30 AM
>Subject: Environment in Vedas
>
>
> > Members,
> >
> > During my recent trip to India, I met a family friend of ours who is in
>a
>very
> > senior position with the Govt of India. During my conversation, he
>expressed
> > interest in knowing what our scriptures say about environment. I
>explained to
> > him briefly about the importance given to elements in the scriptures
>with
>some
> > mantras from Sandhyavandanam.
> >
> > Does anyone know if there is any publication that has comprehesively
>dealt
>with
> > the topic ie., culled verses from Vedas etc and cogently presented a way
>of how
> > we should relate ourselves to our environment.
> >
> > It might be helpful to feed such people with authority with some
>information.
> > He is willing to study and implement a few if he is convinced.
> >
> > May be something good might come out of it.
> >
> > Regards.
> > S. V. Subrahmanian.
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >

_________________________________________________________________
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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Sridhar Raja Athreya
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:48:27 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 02/26/01 09:45 AM -----

 "SRIDHAR RAJA
 ATHREYA" Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 <saiworld at l...
 os.com>

 02/26/01
 01:25 AM


Here is my introduction.
===
My name is Raja Sridhar Athreya a.k.a Sai. I am come from Pakkam Paruthiyur
a small village in Thanjavur District, Tamil nadu, India. I grew up in
Kerala and completed my MBA abroad. I currently work in a Bank in
Singapore.

My understading of Advaita is close to zero. My brother introduced me to
this list. I read a few of the emails and some of the contents were very
enlightening. I do hope to be able to get some answers to those zillions of
unanswered questions about our prayer traditions, The Vedas and so on.
These answers would enhance my experiences in my

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <msr at c...>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:20:36 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: Need information]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <msr at c...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Need information
 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:10:01 +0530
 From: "Ramkumar N.S.M." <nramkuma at A...>
 To: <msr at c...>

Namaskaram Sri RaviShankar, I am Ramkumar, a member of Advita list. I
need some information reg lakshanams of a Vadhuu(bride) as prescribed
in Shastras. If you think this is within the scope of objectives of the
list, please post it to list. *****Begin****** When I was reading
"Kaumaara Sambhavam", Kaalidaasa while describing Paarvati(In first
canto),also describes Minaaka(brother of Paarvati). Vyakhyaanakarta
Mallinaatha Suri comments that, one of the sadlakshanams of a Vadhu is
to have a male sibling and to highlight this (that Paarvati has this
lakshanam also), Kalidasa has described Minaaka. Is it so? Does this has
any evidence any where else? I have a practical problem on my hand and
any information on this will be very
helpful. Thanks,Ramkumar

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:23:55
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I joined this mailing list this year and could not participate in the old
discussions concerning the date of Adi Sankara and the living tradition of
Advaita.

I know that all of us would like this to be resolved - somehow to our favor.

I do not want to start a discussion on that topic because we can never reach
an agreement. No doubt it hones our argument skills, but that argument is
antithesis to the very philosophy of oneness we discuss about.

I came across this interesting article in Kanchi Kamakoti Peetam web site
which is a must read for all people following either of the Acharyas (Kanchi
or Sringeri).

This was the actual LIVING TRADITION of Advaita in the 20th century and
anyone who reads this would understand why I say so.

http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/5-59.html

God bless,

Ravi
_________________________________________________________________
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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:41:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 15:41:27 -0500, Ravishankar Venkatraman
<sunlike at H...> wrote:

>I joined this mailing list this year and could not participate in the old
>discussions concerning the date of Adi Sankara and the living tradition of
>Advaita.
>
>I know that all of us would like this to be resolved - somehow to our
favor.
>
>I do not want to start a discussion on that topic because we can never
reach
>an agreement. No doubt it hones our argument skills, but that argument is
>antithesis to the very philosophy of oneness we discuss about.
>

FYI, there are a large number of non-controversial topics that can be
taken up for discussion that can make us all better understand advaita
and be better advaitins but there seems to be among us a kind of
lethargy and resistance to any kind of detailed inquiry into anything.
As DHH Ingalls aptly points out in his foreword to DC Guha's book on
Navya Nyaya, most people, both foreigners and Indians (many of the
latter form their opinion of Indian philosophy based on what the
foreigners say!) think that Indian Philosophy, including advaita, is
some kind of mystical mumbo-jumbo. They are unaware of the subtle
and sophisticated logical thought that is often used to provide a
rational basis for a system. No doubt, there is a mystical component,
such as upaniShad repitition, meditation, etc. but there IS a rational
component too. The key is to recognize the proper balance of the
mystical and the rational. Most of us introduce ourselves as coming
from a family attracted to advaita, having a deep respect for Shankara,
etc, but these mere facts do not give us any insight into advaita!
We must use the rational approach and question what Shankara and other
advaitins taught, point by point. If they were alive today, they would be
very happy to answer such questions, rather than see us worship them as
deities. Since they are not alive today, as a substitute, we have their
writings from which we can get answers to our doubts and

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:12:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: request to review the web site of Veda Rakshana Nidhi Trust
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


http://www.vrnt.org/


I have taken liberty to remove the personal information from the quoted
message. Your help in this regard would be appreciated. You can


1) Review the WWW site of veda rakshanam and send the comments to
webmaster.

2) Pass this link to your friends or other organizations which have
interest in promoting vedic learning.

3) If you have site, can possibly give a link to their site and in
appropriate places.

4) Please read the following message, one of the goals of VRNT is to
promote _traditional_ learning of veda-s (which is mentioned below).


shrI Kameshwaran, Honorary Public Relations Advisor of VRNT wrote:
>
> Namaskaram.
>
>
> <some portions of the text deleted>


> Coming to the main subject of this mail, the web site for the Veda
> Rakshana Nidhi Trust, Madras, which I promised long back, is only now
> finally ready in its initial version. My nephew (who is also here
> working as a web master for a bank ) has created it ( www.vrnt.org or
> www.digitalrice.com/vedictrust). The first version of the site is
> just completed and my nephew is busy in submitting it to search
> engines, (after I just got the approval of VRNT for going ahead and
> publishing it. ). We have avoided the banner advertisements by
> hosting the site by paying annual fees. There may be some glitches
> now and then as the new server of the hoster, has not yet stabilized.
>
>
>
> The web site is basically a reproduction of the pamphlets of the VRNT
> plus some of the pages of the "Hindu Dharma" by RGK of Bharatiya
> Vidya Bhavan. Because of shortage of time, I could include only the
> most important chapters from that Book, and will need to work further
> to include more immediately relevant chapters.
>
>
> I am trying to get a list of other similarly minded Hindu sites,
> which will help to
>
>
>
> 1.. Provide the link in our site to appropriate other sites dealing
> with Veda, Vedanta etc
>
>
> 2.. Seek cross linking from such appropriate sites
>
>
> 3.. Also get in touch with such people in due course, requesting to
> spread the message of Veda Rakshanam
>
>
> If you have any suggestions in this regard, kindly advise me.
>
>
> After searching the web, I have become aware of the efforts by other
> individuals / organizations like Delhi Vedic Trust ( Sri A. Krishnan)
> in tape recording, one Hyderabad organization for recording in CDs,
> Tirumala Tirupathi Devasthanam's efforts in tape recording, CDAC's
> efforts in digitizing and storing Rig Veda for online retrieval, the
> Norwegian lady who got about 300 tapes done at Pune etc. etc.
>
> However, I have not found any other organization like VRNT who are
> working towards the traditional method of Gurukula Adhyayanam and
> emphasis on the actual chanting of the Shruti. From this point of
> view, I personally feel that their efforts deserve special support,
> because of the Loka Kshemam that Veda Chanting brings forth.
>

<text deleted>

>
>
> With warm regards
>
>
> K. Kameshwaran
>
> (Honorary Public Relations Advisor, VRNT )
>




=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:19:23 -0500
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Need information]
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


>"Kaumaara Sambhavam", Kaalidaasa while describing Paarvati(In first
>canto),also describes Minaaka(brother of Paarvati). Vyakhyaanakarta
>Mallinaatha Suri comments that, one of the sadlakshanams of a Vadhu is
>to have a male sibling and to highlight this (that Paarvati has this
>lakshanam also), Kalidasa has described Minaaka. Is it so? Does this has
>any evidence any where else? I have a practical problem on my hand and
>any information on this will be very
>helpful. Thanks,Ramkumar ******End*******

If a man has only a daughter, but does not have a son, he can
"appoint" his daughter's son to perform his funeral rites and
offer piNDa-s at death anniversaries. According to some of the
dharmazAstras, such a grandson belongs to the grandfather's
lineage, and not to his own biological father's lineage. Some
other authorities thought that such a grandson belongs both
to his own father's lineage and to his maternal grandfather's
lineage. This reflects an ancient confusion about how to decide
the lineage and gotra affiliations, so many people wanted to
avoid such a situation completely. Some people did not think
this to be a big problem, and thought that an agreement could
be made prior to marriage, so long as everybody involved had
an intention to honor it.

If a bride had her own brother, her son would automatically
belong only to her husband's lineage. Her father would not have
had any need to ask her and his son-in-law for any sons born in
the marriage. For this reason, a girl with her own brother(s)
was considered to be a better candidate for marriage than a
girl who was the only child in her family. It then became a
poetic and dramatic convention to mention the brother of the
heroine, in the context of describing the heroine as a bride.

The most excellent resource for finding out about old Indian
customs, as encoded in the dharmazAstras, is the multi-volume
"History of Dharmasastras", by Mm. P. V. Kane. This is a
publication from the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute,
Pune, and has an extensive index at the end of each volume, to
help locate references. Look for references to "appointed son"
or strIdharma.

Best

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Need information]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 00:22:22 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


----Original Message Follows----
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan
If a man has only a daughter, but does not have a son, he can
"appoint" his daughter's son to perform his funeral rites and
offer piNDa-s at death anniversaries. According to some of the
dharmazAstras, such a grandson belongs to the grandfather's
lineage, and not to his own biological father's lineage. Some
other authorities thought that such a grandson belongs both
to his own father's lineage and to his maternal grandfather's
lineage.

VA: Yours truly is an example of the Putrika Dharma (there is another case
in my wife's family) although not so shastraically. My mother does not have
any brother and I am the eldest grandson (and grandchild) of her parents.
Consequently, I was 'adopted' by my maternal grandparents-
1. I have spent most of my childhood with them'
2. My school records show my maternal grandfather's name as my father
(although we changed that when I went to college to avoid complications)
3. I address my mother's sisters as 'Didi' (not Mausi) and they tie Rakhi to
me (but not to my sibling brother). I address my Mausaji as 'Jijaji'. They
also treat me and address me as brother and brother in law, not as nephew.
4. The funeral rites of my maternal grandparents (may they live long) will
be performed by me
5. I address them exactly the way my mother addresses them, and not as Naana
and Naani
6. I address my mother's relatives the same way my mother addresses them
(except for her cousins).
7. My wife was treated as daughter in law by my maternal grandparents (gifts
etc.) and the birth of my son was anxiously awaited more by my maternal
grandparents than by my parents. (They had made some wows and fulfilled them
the day my son was born).
8. I spell my last name as a combination of the way my maternal grandfather
and father spell it.
My father- Agrawal
My maternal grandfather- Aggarwal
myself- Agarwal
9. Even when I moved in with my parents, my grandparents contiued paying for
my entire education insistently.
10. In day to day conversations with friends, I consider my maternal
grandfather's native place as mine (not my paternal grandfather's).


Obviously such cases have some complications but the best part of it is that
you are doubly pampered :-)

Vishal


Homepage- http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/homepage.html

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>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Historical Analysis of Rigveda
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:17:17 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


The book "Rigveda: A Historical Analysis" (Delhi, 2000) by Shrikant Talageri
is now available online at

http://www.voi.org/books/rig/

Apparently a few minor errors of proof-reading (of the scanned text) are
there which should hopefully be corrected soon.

Sincerely,

Vishal Agarwal

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>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:10:27 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


>FYI, there are a large number of non-controversial topics that can be
>taken up for discussion that can make us all better understand advaita
>and be better advaitins but there seems to be among us a kind of
>lethargy and resistance to any kind of detailed inquiry into anything.
>As DHH Ingalls aptly points out in his foreword to DC Guha's book on
>Navya Nyaya, most people, both foreigners and Indians (many of the
>latter form their opinion of Indian philosophy based on what the
>foreigners say!) think that Indian Philosophy, including advaita, is
>some kind of mystical mumbo-jumbo. They are unaware of the subtle
>and sophisticated logical thought that is often used to provide a
>rational basis for a system. No doubt, there is a mystical component,
>such as upaniShad repitition, meditation, etc. but there IS a rational
>component too. The key is to recognize the proper balance of the
>mystical and the rational. Most of us introduce ourselves as coming
>from a family attracted to advaita, having a deep respect for Shankara,
>etc, but these mere facts do not give us any insight into advaita!
>We must use the rational approach and question what Shankara and other
>advaitins taught, point by point. If they were alive today, they would be
>very happy to answer such questions, rather than see us worship them as
>deities. Since they are not alive today, as a substitute, we have their
>writings from which we can get answers to our doubts and questions.
>
Namaste Anand,
I believe every sadhaka is striving in her/his own way to attain peace /
bliss, whatever you call it. Not everyone is cut out for the jnana marga -
it requires a very sharp intellect and an inquiring mind that most don't
possess. The nature of the subject (pun ?) is such, many people must have
tried it and given up. The myriads of paths within Vedanta adds to the
confusion. It is quite a hazy path left behind by the numerous great rishis
and sages, but no where on this map can you find a "you are here" sign.
Most people try out different paths that they think might work. Some are
lucky enough to find a personal guru who can lead them by hand, others
probably need to wait longer for that opportunity. I think the key is to
find a personal guru, until which everything is just an experiment or a play
of odds. Once mumukshutva sets in, I think our next ardent goal should be to
seek out a guru with humility.
My 2 cents about the present state of confusion / delusion.
Savithri


_________________________________________________________________
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>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Yogesh Shah.
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:47:09 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 02/27/01 10:41 AM -----

 Yogesh Shah
 <yogesh at i... Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 tintl.com>
 02/27/01
 02:39 AM


Dear Sir,

My Brief profile

Name - Yogesh Shah
Education - BE (Production), ICWAI, PGDIM
Age - 32 years
Profession - Service
Family - Wife + 3.5 years old boy.

I regularly go to the Vedanata classes being conducted in Mumbai. Right now
I
am studying VIVEK CHUDAMANI - (Aadi Sankaracharya Krit)

I have deep interest in vedanat philosophy and would like to study in
detail
for Moksh (Nirvana / freedom from bondage / liberation) etc.

Please let me know if you need any further inputs.

Regards,

Yogesh

>From Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_sundaram at i...>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:01:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_sundaram at i...>


> Most people try out different paths that they think might work. Some are
> lucky enough to find a personal guru who can lead them by hand, others
> probably need to wait longer for that opportunity. I think the key is to
> find a personal guru, until which everything is just an experiment or a
> play of odds. Once mumukshutva sets in, I think our next ardent goal
> should be to seek out a guru with humility.

I would like to look at this as a form of preparation for taking an
entrance exam to any large university, for example taking the SAT in the US
or taking IIT-JEE in India ... you go to what ever high school you want,
take what ever extra tutoring you need - your only goal is admission to
such and such university to pursue a study of such and such a science. So
also with Advaita, or any system of vendata for that matter. It is one
thing to say it is complicated and hence I cannot and should not pursue a
study of it by myself; however it is also, I believe, wrong our parts to
say we will study only after I have found the admission. There is no catch-
22 here. The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the
best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by
earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by
our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or
anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.
Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in".

> I believe every sadhaka is striving in her/his own way to attain peace
> bliss, whatever you call it.

Shankara says: The conviction of the Truth is seen to arise only from
inquiry and the trust worthy upadesa of a Guru.

Hence, when you mention that every sadhaka is striving, the striving has to
be towards removing of ajnana.

I am also the same kind of "subject" who feels the material to be perused
is demanding of the intellect. But I do take Shankara's reaching to heart
when he says "liberation is to be attained HERE and NOW"

In this respect, I would refer you to verse 13 of the vivekachUdAmani.
bhava shankara desikame

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:30:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:10:27 -0000, Savithri Devaraj <savdev at H...>
wrote:

>>FYI, there are a large number of non-controversial topics that can be
>>taken up for discussion that can make us all better understand advaita
>>and be better advaitins but there seems to be among us a kind of
>>lethargy and resistance to any kind of detailed inquiry into anything.
>>As DHH Ingalls aptly points out in his foreword to DC Guha's book on
>>Navya Nyaya, most people, both foreigners and Indians (many of the
>>latter form their opinion of Indian philosophy based on what the
>>foreigners say!) think that Indian Philosophy, including advaita, is
>>some kind of mystical mumbo-jumbo. They are unaware of the subtle
>>and sophisticated logical thought that is often used to provide a
>>rational basis for a system. No doubt, there is a mystical component,
>>such as upaniShad repitition, meditation, etc. but there IS a rational
>>component too. The key is to recognize the proper balance of the
>>mystical and the rational. Most of us introduce ourselves as coming
>>from a family attracted to advaita, having a deep respect for Shankara,
>>etc, but these mere facts do not give us any insight into advaita!
>>We must use the rational approach and question what Shankara and other
>>advaitins taught, point by point. If they were alive today, they would be
>>very happy to answer such questions, rather than see us worship them as
>>deities. Since they are not alive today, as a substitute, we have their
>>writings from which we can get answers to our doubts and questions.
>>
>Namaste Anand,
>I believe every sadhaka is striving in her/his own way to attain peace /
>bliss, whatever you call it. Not everyone is cut out for the jnana marga -
>it requires a very sharp intellect and an inquiring mind that most don't
>possess. The nature of the subject (pun ?) is such, many people must have
>tried it and given up. The myriads of paths within Vedanta adds to the
>confusion. It is quite a hazy path left behind by the numerous great rishis
>and sages, but no where on this map can you find a "you are here" sign.
>Most people try out different paths that they think might work. Some are
>lucky enough to find a personal guru who can lead them by hand, others
>probably need to wait longer for that opportunity. I think the key is to
>find a personal guru, until which everything is just an experiment or a
play
>of odds. Once mumukshutva sets in, I think our next ardent goal should be
to
>seek out a guru with humility.
>My 2 cents about the present state of confusion / delusion.
>Savithri

Your point about having a Guru is well taken. But still there are
numerous sources which anybody can read, study, and discuss on his/her
own without any concern for bad effects! Some examples are the
sanatsujAtIya from the mahAbhArata, uddhava gItA from the bhAgavata, the
adhyAtma rAmAyaNa, various selections from the purANas, including the
shiva-gItA, Yoga vAsiShTa (thanks to Ashish for his posts), some
prakaraNa granthas of our AchAryas, etc.

First of all, we have to understand that advaita is jnAna-pradhAna,
mainly concerned with jnAna. As such, it does demand a spirit of
inquiry into things, a spirit that we should *all* have as *human*
beings. Humans are called "rational animals." If you take out the
"rational" adjective, then we all are as good as animals. It is only
because we can the capability to reason out things, we become eligible
to be called humans. And advaita is precisely demanding on this
natural trait of ours, which should not be a big demand at all!
advaita does not, in general, agree that we can be carried over
to the other side like kittens/cubs in the mouth of their mother,
without any effort on their part, as taught in other systems promoting
bhakti. I have great respect for systems based solely on bhakti but
advaita is different from them. The yoga-vAsiShTha, for example,
clearly emphasizes that our own effort is required, leaving nothing
to chance or fate.

So unless we make an effort to understand advaita, it will not be
possible. Besides, this list is ill-suited for investigating the
mystical side of advaita, since there is no face-to-face encounter
involved. It is only the rational/dialectical aspects of advaita that
can be meaningfully addressed in a list such as this one. The utility
of the list is minimized if we rule out/give up such discussions.
And there is ample room for such discussion here drawing topics from the
sources such as those that I indicated

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


> The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the
>best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by
>earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by
>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or
>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.
>Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in".

One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a
particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his
teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a
teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have
experienced this in my own life.

 A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall
come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The
fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature.
All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification
from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books
whereever he is placed by the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come
when the student is ready. In fact the Lord himself will come in the
form of the teacher if he is ready .

No teacher will come say that I am your teacher. If he does you can
forget him! The student himself will discover his teacher from whom
he is getting the utmost help. It is the heart to heart
communication at that level.

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:11:19
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


This discussion is getting more and more interesting. It started somewhere
and going somewhere else. However, it is quite interesting.


Sadananda said:
>>A personal guru who will lead us by
>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or
>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.

How do we know who is the right Guru for us? Paul Brunton, as you all may
know, had done a lot of travel and search for a true guru (Source:A search
in Secret India). He finally met Ramana Maharishi and his search was over.
Does that mean that he was not ready for years before he got his guru? He
did not settle for someone easily.

My concept is that a Guru is one who is a realized soul already or who is
pursuing the path to realization vigorously, in terms of Sadhana and
preaching. He/she should have sound knowledge of what he is talking about.
He is the one who gives us hope about finding the Truth. I think that it is
true for me and anyone else who is interested in Jnana and liberation.

Sometimes we find that some of the Gurus pursue realization and do not
achieve it. This could happen because they themselves do not practise
seriously what they preach and they become fallen gurus (sometimes in
character too!!!). What happens if we end up with one of such Gurus? Our
devotion to that person could be really sincere and very true from our
hearts, but our Karma did not help.

Do we have to really do some quality tests to follow someone? If so, how
long or do we we wait indefinitely to find the right one? How do I qualify
myself for the right guru - do I read scriptures enough? To summarize, what
is that we should do to find the right guru?

God bless,
Ravi

>From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at A...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:34 -0500
>
>> The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the
>>best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by
>>earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by
>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or
>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.
>>Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in".
>
>One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a
>particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his
>teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a
>teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have
>experienced this in my own life.
>
> A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall
>come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The
>fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature.
>All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification
>from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books
>whereever he is placed by the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come
>when the student is ready. In fact the Lord himself will come in the
>form of the teacher if he is ready .
>
>No teacher will come say that I am your teacher. If he does you can
>forget him! The student himself will discover his teacher from whom
>he is getting the utmost help. It is the heart to heart
>communication at that level.
>
>Hari Om!
>Sadananda
>--
>K. Sadananda
>Code 6323
>Naval Research Laboratory
>Washington D.C. 20375
>Voice (202)767-2117
>Fax:(202)767-2623

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:33:33 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


>
>Your point about having a Guru is well taken. But still there are
>numerous sources which anybody can read, study, and discuss on his/her
>own without any concern for bad effects! Some examples are the
>sanatsujAtIya from the mahAbhArata, uddhava gItA from the bhAgavata, the
>adhyAtma rAmAyaNa, various selections from the purANas, including the
>shiva-gItA, Yoga vAsiShTa (thanks to Ashish for his posts), some
>prakaraNa granthas of our AchAryas, etc.
>

Absolutely, I fully agree with you here. I have found vivekachudamani and
yoga vashishta most useful at this stage for me. I didnot mean to say people
should stop trying when then find it intellectually demanding - I was giving
that as a reason for many people not participating in intellectual
discussions on the list. Now think about it, how far can you really go
without a guru's guidance? There is no firm conviction in the knowledge that
you get out of books. If we did get that conviction, we wouldn't be here on
this list arguing about it. A very-often quoted saying of Swami
Chinmayananda comes to mind - A man was telling swamiji he had read the
bhagavat Geetha a dozen times - Swamiji just smiles and asks him "How many
times did the Geetha go thru' you?" How many of us really are convinced
that we are not the body, mind or intellect after hearing it day in and day
out?

advaita is precisely demanding on this
>natural trait of ours, which should not be a big demand at all!
>advaita does not, in general, agree that we can be carried over
>to the other side like kittens/cubs in the mouth of their mother,
>without any effort on their part, as taught in other systems promoting
>bhakti. I have great respect for systems based solely on bhakti but
>advaita is different from them. The yoga-vAsiShTha, for example,
>clearly emphasizes that our own effort is required, leaving nothing
>to chance or fate.
>So unless we make an effort to understand advaita, it will not be
>possible. Besides, this list is ill-suited for investigating the
>mystical side of advaita, since there is no face-to-face encounter
>involved.

Books such as "Vedanta or Science of Reality" by KrishnaSwamy Iyer addresses
some of these topics very well.

>It is only the rational/dialectical aspects of advaita that
>can be meaningfully addressed in a list such as this one. The utility
>of the list is minimized if we rule out/give up such discussions.
>And there is ample room for such discussion here drawing topics from the
>sources such as those that I indicated above.


Very true. I must thank you and others like Sri.Sadananda, Sri.Ashish for
your continued contributions. Honestly, I find it hard to raise questions
that I come upon in my readings in lists like this. I don't know if it is my
ego stopping me, or if the language comes really short for good expression.

Though I said all striving seems like experiments etc. in my earlier post -
I know they have been very helpful to me. (To be honest, I was only thinking
of the different types of meditations I have tried over the years after
reading innumerable books etc.) They seem to be almost absolutely essential
for the jiva to flower. Shlokas, passages I tried reading say 8-10 years
ago, now make a lot more sense and it seems easier to reflect upon what I
read and hear. Answers come to some lingering questions on there own with
passage of time. Time in spiritual matters must be quantified in decades or
in lifetimes rather than in months or years. As someone already mentioned on
this list earlier, in this day and age people are used to seeing results
overnight or in a very short time - this cannot be true in case of
atmajnana, unless the soul is already very evolved.

Namaste,
Savithri

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:48:27 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


Namaste Sri.Sadananda,

>One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a
>particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his
>teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a
>teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have
>experienced this in my own life.
>

Thanks very much for the reassurance. I am pretty convinced about this
myself.

> A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall
>come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The
>fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature.
>All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification
>from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books
>whereever he is placed by the Lord.

True. I used to hear from parents, elders etc., you are stationed in in life
exactly where you belong, and that there is a lesson to be learned from
every experience. I am slowly understanding the relevance of these
statements in my day to day life.

Thanks,
Hari Om,
Savithri
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Naresh Rajanna <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:00:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Naresh Rajanna <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaste,

I had an opportunity recently to listen to Swami
Mukundanandaji's (Jagadguru Kripalu ji Maharaj's
student) discourse on god realization. His answer to
one of my questions is relevant to the present
discussion.

Swamiji had mentioned during his discourse that to
achieve god realization one has to be guided by a
god-realized guru. After the discourse, I had asked
him the following question,

'I would like to be a god-realized individual. However
I am unable to read scriptures extensively (due to
time & knowledge constraints) and am neither able to
give up all my materialistic pursuits and spend time
with a GURU because I have an ambition to build an
industry with which I would like to pursue my
philanthrophic goals (which I felt at the time of
asking the que, that, it is another path to God
realization). Does it mean that if I dont read the
scriptures in detail and dont spend time with a guru,
I will never be able to achieve god-realization ?
Does it mean that a poor beggar on the street who has
no access to any scriputres will never be able to
achieve god realization?'

Due to time constraints Swamiji did not answer the
whole que but gave me a small pleasing example
addressing my doubt about pursuing worldly goals and
god-realization goal at the same time.

'There is a man hanging down a cliff. If he lets off
his hand he is sure to fall down and die. He cries out
in pain to God. Hearing his cries the God appears. The
man pleads with God to lift him and help him to become
a part of HIM. The God replies saying, let go off your
hand from the cliff, and you will become a part of me.
The man refuses to leave his hand from the cliff and
instead requests the god to first lift him up!

Swamiji told me that my desires were similiar to this
example. I yearn for God realization and at the same
time want to perform worldly actions which is not
possible. Only a god-realized guru (who with his
profound wisdom and knowledge of the scriptures) will
be able to guide one towards the Supreme through
time-tested paths.

Naresh Rajanna.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:10:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>This discussion is getting more and more interesting. It started somewhere
>and going somewhere else. However, it is quite interesting.
>
>
>Sadananda said:
>>>A personal guru who will lead us by
>>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or
>>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.

Ravi -By the by the above statement is not mine - I was responding to
comment I think by Vaidya Sundaram-
Nevertheless I do not disagree with the first statement. There is no
mule guru-s who can carry the disciple - the nature of the problem is
ignorance. The guru may teach - He provides the pointers - the
student has to do his homework in order to own that knowledge. Hence
shravanam, mananam, nidhidhyaasana are emphasized - after the
saadhana chatushhTayam. My comments are only related to going after
a Guru. The scriptures tell us -
 tat vij~naartham sa gurumevaabhi gachchhet
 samit paaNiH shotriyam brahma nishhTam||
The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB
related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully
estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam -
These two words are pregnant with meaning. It implies that teacher
must be one who has realized -(otherwise it will be like blind
leading the blind as KaTa. Up. says) - he has realized that He is
Brahman - That means- he has realized that - sarvabhuutasta
maatmaanam sarvabhuutanicha aatmani - all beings are in me and I am
in all beings - he is akartha and abhokta - For there is neither a
teacher nor a disciple to teach from his reference. So teacher
exists only from the point of the student. Since now the brahman
himself is teaching - essentially it is the Lord or Iswara himself
using the equipments of the teacher (body, mind and intellect),
Teacher is nothing other than manifestation brahman himself. The
pryer we do that - guru brahma guru vishNu etc is a factual statement.
The second qualification is he must be shrotriyaH - This has several
implications - first he must be knowledgable of the shrutiies -
meaning upanishads here that deal with j~nanakaanDa. shruti means
that which he has heard - it also means he must have heard from his
teacher - obviously his teacher from his teacher - thus he must
belong to a guruparamapara or a sampradaaya teacher who has not only
learned shruti-s but also learned how to teach from his teacher.
Another implication is not only he knows what to teach being himself
brahmanishhTa, he should be able to communicate that knowledge to the
student. Lot of people know the subject but cannot teach. A teacher
has to comedown the level of the student and be able to communicate
to him so that he can be helped. A teacher like Bhagavaan Ramana
maharshi can teach only those that are able to tune to that level.
He was teaching in silence. A techer like Swami Chinmayananda is for
those who are eager to listen to the Giita and upanishads in the
language they can understand. Hence I said a proper teacher will
come for the suitable student. That is the law of nature.

One more aspect involved in the above sloka - How does one know a
teacher is brhamanishhTa or not? - A student will never be able to
test - there are no litmus tests to know for others that one is
brahmanishhTa. All the indications given in scriptures is only meant
for self-test, including the Stitapraj~na lakshaNa in Giita. Then
what is the use of asking to approach the teacher who is
brahmainishhTa? A student after long association with a teacher
feels in his own heart that he is my teacher and he is brahmanishhTa.
Narendra had lot of questions before he took RamakrishNa paramahamsa
as his Teacher. In olden times, when the student approaches a
gurukula - teacher just keeps him for several years -it is meant for
mutual observation - teacher will be observing the student whether he
is really qualified student or not and student also will be
observing whether the particular teacher lives the values he teaches.
- jaDabharata story in upanishads is very good example. Since it is
almost impossible to judge whether a teacher is brahmanishhTa or not
- it is told that it is indeed blessings of the Lord that a student
is directed to a particular teacher. The teacher after observing
knows the student and guides to proper teacher where he learn. Paul
Burton was directed to Ramana Maharshi by Kanchi Kaama koti.
 Shankara says in VivekachuuDaamani -
 durlabham trayamevaitad devanugraha hetukam
 manushyatvam mumukshatvama mahaapurushha samprayaH||

These three things are difficult to get - birth as a human being, and
even after human birth, the intese desire for liberation and finally
the acquiantence with the teacher or great soul - these are indeed
only due the blessings of the Lord. Shankara also indicates the
order here - being man as Shree Ananda Hudli - pointed out that one
is human only because of the blessings of the intellect -
 ahaara nidra bhayamaitunancha saamaanaya metat pashhubiH naraanaam|
 bhuddhirhi tesham adhiko visheshhaH buddhyaavihiinaaH pashhubhiH
samaanaaH||

Eating, sleeping and producing are common for animals and man. It is
only the buddhi or intellect that makes man different from animals
and if he does not use it, he is as good as an animal.
It is blessing indeed to be born as human since it is said that there
are 85,000 of varieties of living entities and one could have been
any one of those. But after acquiring this rare birth - only a very
few percent are interested in the Vedanata - and that too adviata
vedanta - Bhagavaan Dattatraya says in his very first sloka of
Avadhuuta Giita - to have adviata vaasana among all is indeed a
blessing from the Lord. Then the association with the great soul who
can teach is - due to merits of many lives. That is what every
student of Vedanta feels when he approaches the right teacher.

To answer your question - a Student cannot know if the teacher is
established in Brahman or not.

One westerner asked Swami Chinmayanandaji - Sir there are so many
guru-s comming to US. How do we know who is the right teacher and
who is the wrong teacher? Why cannot India send only those who are
really qualified rather than confusing the public here since many are
claiming that they are perfect teachers.

He just laughed aloud and said - when you go to grocery store, you go
to buy things you need. you cannot complain to the store manager why
is he selling all these others things you do not need. People come
for buying different things and we cannot complain that manager
should not be selling all these. Lord has to make sure everyone gets
the right teacher he deserves. When we go in search of things we
know what we want to buy - and by mistake we buy something (without
seeing the ingredients) - just because we bought we do not use it -
we may return back to the store - but in the process we learned at
least one thing we need to learn - The product may be intrinsically
great but that is not what we want at that time - At least now we
have learned a very important lesson from that experience - that is
we should look carefully for the ingredient whether that is conducive
for our taste or need or not. Hence one has to use ones intellect
until one discovers the teacher and the intellect is completely
surrendered - since shraddha is important for learning - shaastrasya
guruvaakyasya satyabudhyaavadhaaranaa - is the shradda -faith in the
words of the teacher and shaastra that the teaching is the truth.
That comes slowly with close association with the teacher.


>How do we know who is the right Guru for us? Paul Brunton, as you all may
>know, had done a lot of travel and search for a true guru (Source:A search
>in Secret India). He finally met Ramana Maharishi and his search was over.
>Does that mean that he was not ready for years before he got his guru? He
>did not settle for someone easily.
>
>My concept is that a Guru is one who is a realized soul already or who is
>pursuing the path to realization vigorously, in terms of Sadhana and
>preaching. He/she should have sound knowledge of what he is talking about.
>He is the one who gives us hope about finding the
   Truth. I think that it is
>true for me and anyone else who is interested in Jnana and liberation.
>
>Sometimes we find that some of the Gurus pursue realization and do not
>achieve it. This could happen because they themselves do not practise
>seriously what they preach and they become fallen gurus (sometimes in
>character too!!!). What happens if we end up with one of such Gurus? Our
>devotion to that person could be really sincere and very true from our
>hearts, but our Karma did not help.

I think I have answered already most of the questions. Look at this
way - there is no wrong guru - only wrong student. This is because
if the student did not use his god-given gift - intellect - we cannot
blame the teacher for that - even if the teacher is not proper and
the student learns later that fact - implies that he had the right
teacher to teach that student that he did not use intellect properly
- also now the student is now better educated in selecting the right
teacher - in that sense that particular teacher was indeed the right
teacher for that student since he needed to learn that fact fist.
What one can do is follow Shankara's advice in Bhajagovindam
 sat sanghatve nissangatvam
 nissangatve nirmohatvam
 nirmohatve nischala tatvam
 nischalatatve jiivanmuktaH
Have the company of good - that includes books, study of scriptures,
following sadhana in terms of karma , bhakti and j~naan yoga-s and
use your intellect in selecting your company - shama and dama,
titiiksha etc. Meet mahatmaas and listen to their good words - One
need not accept them as our guru-s but satsangha is always important.
Slowly one discovers the teacher he needs.

There is no quality tests for a teacher - there are self tests for
the students - Am getting benefited from the teachings or not - Am I
following the teachings with full heart and soul. How far I have
progressed. Does the company of the teacher helps my mind to quieten
or does it agitate - One cannot judge the motives and actions of
others correctly - but one can judge ones own motives and the actions
- that is the litmus test. Am I getting the benefit from the company
of this person - this book this environment - all this include
satsangh-

Hari OM!
Sadanadna


>Do we have to really do some quality tests to follow someone? If so, how
>long or do we we wait indefinitely to find the right one? How do I qualify
>myself for the right guru - do I read scriptures enough? To summarize, what
>is that we should do to find the right guru?
>
>God bless,
>Ravi
>
>>From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at A...>
>>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
>><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>>Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
>>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:34 -0500
>>
>>> The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the
>>>best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by
>>>earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by
>>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma or
>>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.
>>>Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in".
>>
>>One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a
>>particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his
>>teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a
>>teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have
>>experienced this in my own life.
>>
>> A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall
>>come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The
>>fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature.
>>All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification
>>from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books
>>whereever he is placed by the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come
>>when the student is ready. In fact the Lord himself will come in the
>>form of the teacher if he is ready .
>>
>>No teacher will come say that I am your teacher. If he does you can
>>forget him! The student himself will discover his teacher from whom
>>he is getting the utmost help. It is the heart to heart
>>communication at that level.
>>
>>Hari Om!
>>Sadananda
>>--
>>K. Sadananda
>>Code 6323
>>Naval Research Laboratory
>>Washington D.C. 20375
>>Voice (202)767-2117
>>Fax:(202)767-2623
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:32:54
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sadananda,

Your explanations were excellent. I should also mention that you have read
very widely and you have applied your knowledge. I am sure that this group
would be able to benefit from people like you.

Thanks for the very nice reply.

Ravi

>From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at A...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
>Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:10:42 -0500
>
>>This discussion is getting more and more interesting. It started somewhere
>>and going somewhere else. However, it is quite interesting.
>>
>>
>>Sadananda said:
>>>>A personal guru who will lead us by
>>>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma
>>>>or
>>>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.
>
>Ravi -By the by the above statement is not mine - I was responding to
>comment I think by Vaidya Sundaram-
>Nevertheless I do not disagree with the first statement. There is no
>mule guru-s who can carry the disciple - the nature of the problem is
>ignorance. The guru may teach - He provides the pointers - the
>student has to do his homework in order to own that knowledge. Hence
>shravanam, mananam, nidhidhyaasana are emphasized - after the
>saadhana chatushhTayam. My comments are only related to going after
>a Guru. The scriptures tell us -
> tat vij~naartham sa gurumevaabhi gachchhet
> samit paaNiH shotriyam brahma nishhTam||
>The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB
>related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully
>estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam -
>These two words are pregnant with meaning. It implies that teacher
>must be one who has realized -(otherwise it will be like blind
>leading the blind as KaTa. Up. says) - he has realized that He is
>Brahman - That means- he has realized that - sarvabhuutasta
>maatmaanam sarvabhuutanicha aatmani - all beings are in me and I am
>in all beings - he is akartha and abhokta - For there is neither a
>teacher nor a disciple to teach from his reference. So teacher
>exists only from the point of the student. Since now the brahman
>himself is teaching - essentially it is the Lord or Iswara himself
>using the equipments of the teacher (body, mind and intellect),
>Teacher is nothing other than manifestation brahman himself. The
>pryer we do that - guru brahma guru vishNu etc is a factual statement.
>The second qualification is he must be shrotriyaH - This has several
>implications - first he must be knowledgable of the shrutiies -
>meaning upanishads here that deal with j~nanakaanDa. shruti means
>that which he has heard - it also means he must have heard from his
>teacher - obviously his teacher from his teacher - thus he must
>belong to a guruparamapara or a sampradaaya teacher who has not only
>learned shruti-s but also learned how to teach from his teacher.
>Another implication is not only he knows what to teach being himself
>brahmanishhTa, he should be able to communicate that knowledge to the
>student. Lot of people know the subject but cannot teach. A teacher
>has to comedown the level of the student and be able to communicate
>to him so that he can be helped. A teacher like Bhagavaan Ramana
>maharshi can teach only those that are able to tune to that level.
>He was teaching in silence. A techer like Swami Chinmayananda is for
>those who are eager to listen to the Giita and upanishads in the
>language they can understand. Hence I said a proper teacher will
>come for the suitable student. That is the law of nature.
>
>One more aspect involved in the above sloka - How does one know a
>teacher is brhamanishhTa or not? - A student will never be able to
>test - there are no litmus tests to know for others that one is
>brahmanishhTa. All the indications given in scriptures is only meant
>for self-test, including the Stitapraj~na lakshaNa in Giita. Then
>what is the use of asking to approach the teacher who is
>brahmainishhTa? A student after long association with a teacher
>feels in his own heart that he is my teacher and he is brahmanishhTa.
>Narendra had lot of questions before he took RamakrishNa paramahamsa
>as his Teacher. In olden times, when the student approaches a
>gurukula - teacher just keeps him for several years -it is meant for
>mutual observation - teacher will be observing the student whether he
>is really qualified student or not and student also will be
>observing whether the particular teacher lives the values he teaches.
>- jaDabharata story in upanishads is very good example. Since it is
>almost impossible to judge whether a teacher is brahmanishhTa or not
>- it is told that it is indeed blessings of the Lord that a student
>is directed to a particular teacher. The teacher after observing
>knows the student and guides to proper teacher where he learn. Paul
>Burton was directed to Ramana Maharshi by Kanchi Kaama koti.
> Shankara says in VivekachuuDaamani -
> durlabham trayamevaitad devanugraha hetukam
> manushyatvam mumukshatvama mahaapurushha samprayaH||
>
>These three things are difficult to get - birth as a human being, and
>even after human birth, the intese desire for liberation and finally
>the acquiantence with the teacher or great soul - these are indeed
>only due the blessings of the Lord. Shankara also indicates the
>order here - being man as Shree Ananda Hudli - pointed out that one
>is human only because of the blessings of the intellect -
> ahaara nidra bhayamaitunancha saamaanaya metat pashhubiH naraanaam|
> bhuddhirhi tesham adhiko visheshhaH buddhyaavihiinaaH pashhubhiH
>samaanaaH||
>
>Eating, sleeping and producing are common for animals and man. It is
>only the buddhi or intellect that makes man different from animals
>and if he does not use it, he is as good as an animal.
>It is blessing indeed to be born as human since it is said that there
>are 85,000 of varieties of living entities and one could have been
>any one of those. But after acquiring this rare birth - only a very
>few percent are interested in the Vedanata - and that too adviata
>vedanta - Bhagavaan Dattatraya says in his very first sloka of
>Avadhuuta Giita - to have adviata vaasana among all is indeed a
>blessing from the Lord. Then the association with the great soul who
>can teach is - due to merits of many lives. That is what every
>student of Vedanta feels when he approaches the right teacher.
>
>To answer your question - a Student cannot know if the teacher is
>established in Brahman or not.
>
>One westerner asked Swami Chinmayanandaji - Sir there are so many
>guru-s comming to US. How do we know who is the right teacher and
>who is the wrong teacher? Why cannot India send only those who are
>really qualified rather than confusing the public here since many are
>claiming that they are perfect teachers.
>
>He just laughed aloud and said - when you go to grocery store, you go
>to buy things you need. you cannot complain to the store manager why
>is he selling all these others things you do not need. People come
>for buying different things and we cannot complain that manager
>should not be selling all these. Lord has to make sure everyone gets
>the right teacher he deserves. When we go in search of things we
>know what we want to buy - and by mistake we buy something (without
>seeing the ingredients) - just because we bought we do not use it -
>we may return back to the store - but in the process we learned at
>least one thing we need to learn - The product may be intrinsically
>great but that is not what we want at that time - At least now we
>have learned a very important lesson from that experience - that is
>we should look carefully for the ingredient whether that is conducive
>for our taste or need or not. Hence one has to use ones intellect
>until one discovers the teacher and the intellect is completely
>surrendered - since shraddha is important for learning - shaastrasya
>guruvaakyasya satyabudhyaavadhaaranaa - is the shradda -faith in the
>words of the teacher and shaastra that the teaching is the truth.
>That comes slowly with close association with the teacher.
>
>
>>How do we know who is
   the right Guru for us? Paul Brunton, as you all may
>>know, had done a lot of travel and search for a true guru (Source:A search
>>in Secret India). He finally met Ramana Maharishi and his search was over.
>>Does that mean that he was not ready for years before he got his guru? He
>>did not settle for someone easily.
>>
>>My concept is that a Guru is one who is a realized soul already or who is
>>pursuing the path to realization vigorously, in terms of Sadhana and
>>preaching. He/she should have sound knowledge of what he is talking about.
>>He is the one who gives us hope about finding the Truth. I think that it
>>is
>>true for me and anyone else who is interested in Jnana and liberation.
>>
>>Sometimes we find that some of the Gurus pursue realization and do not
>>achieve it. This could happen because they themselves do not practise
>>seriously what they preach and they become fallen gurus (sometimes in
>>character too!!!). What happens if we end up with one of such Gurus? Our
>>devotion to that person could be really sincere and very true from our
>>hearts, but our Karma did not help.
>
>I think I have answered already most of the questions. Look at this
>way - there is no wrong guru - only wrong student. This is because
>if the student did not use his god-given gift - intellect - we cannot
>blame the teacher for that - even if the teacher is not proper and
>the student learns later that fact - implies that he had the right
>teacher to teach that student that he did not use intellect properly
>- also now the student is now better educated in selecting the right
>teacher - in that sense that particular teacher was indeed the right
>teacher for that student since he needed to learn that fact fist.
>What one can do is follow Shankara's advice in Bhajagovindam
> sat sanghatve nissangatvam
> nissangatve nirmohatvam
> nirmohatve nischala tatvam
> nischalatatve jiivanmuktaH
>Have the company of good - that includes books, study of scriptures,
>following sadhana in terms of karma , bhakti and j~naan yoga-s and
>use your intellect in selecting your company - shama and dama,
>titiiksha etc. Meet mahatmaas and listen to their good words - One
>need not accept them as our guru-s but satsangha is always important.
>Slowly one discovers the teacher he needs.
>
>There is no quality tests for a teacher - there are self tests for
>the students - Am getting benefited from the teachings or not - Am I
>following the teachings with full heart and soul. How far I have
>progressed. Does the company of the teacher helps my mind to quieten
>or does it agitate - One cannot judge the motives and actions of
>others correctly - but one can judge ones own motives and the actions
>- that is the litmus test. Am I getting the benefit from the company
>of this person - this book this environment - all this include
>satsangh-
>
>Hari OM!
>Sadanadna
>
>
>>Do we have to really do some quality tests to follow someone? If so, how
>>long or do we we wait indefinitely to find the right one? How do I qualify
>>myself for the right guru - do I read scriptures enough? To summarize,
>>what
>>is that we should do to find the right guru?
>>
>>God bless,
>>Ravi
>>
>>>From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at A...>
>>>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
>>><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>>>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>>>Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
>>>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:21:34 -0500
>>>
>>>> The proper method is for ourselves to prepare ourselves to the
>>>>best of our abilities and then keep trying to better our selves by
>>>>earnestly going in search of a guru. A personal guru who will lead us by
>>>>our hands does not drop in and knowck on the door due to luck or karma
>>>>or
>>>>anything else. Only self qualification and going after a guru will work.
>>>>Same goes to "mumukshutva setting in".
>>>
>>>One need not go in search of a guru unless one is looking for a
>>>particular person - as Shankara did when he went in search of his
>>>teacher. My teacher used to say - One does not have to hunt for a
>>>teacher - the teacher shall come if the student is ready. I have
>>>experienced this in my own life.
>>>
>>> A flower does not have to go in search of a bee. The bee shall
>>>come when the flower is ready. All it has to do is open itself. The
>>>fragrance itself will attract the bee. That is the law of nature.
>>>All one has to do is prepare oneself with saadhana with purification
>>>from what he has learned from the parents, friends and books
>>>whereever he is placed by the Lord. An appropriate teacher will come
>>>when the student is ready. In fact the Lord himself will come in the
>>>form of the teacher if he is ready .
>>>
>>>No teacher will come say that I am your teacher. If he does you can
>>>forget him! The student himself will discover his teacher from whom
>>>he is getting the utmost help. It is the heart to heart
>>>communication at that level.
>>>
>>>Hari Om!
>>>Sadananda
>>>--
>>>K. Sadananda
>>>Code 6323
>>>Naval Research Laboratory
>>>Washington D.C. 20375
>>>Voice (202)767-2117
>>>Fax:(202)767-2623
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________
>>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>--
>K. Sadananda
>Code 6323
>Naval Research Laboratory
>Washington D.C. 20375
>Voice (202)767-2117
>Fax:(202)767-2623

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 08:42:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


>Sadananda,
>
>Your explanations were excellent. I should also mention that you have read
>very widely and you have applied your knowledge. I am sure that this group
>would be able to benefit from people like you.
>
>Thanks for the very nice reply.
>
>Ravi

Ravi thanks for your kind words - I am only a parrot - just passing
on what I learned from my teacher.
Hari OM!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From Susan Mene <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:46:19 -0500
Subject: Thanks
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Susan Mene <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I have just read the message of contributor Sadanadna, and I wish to thank
him and all those knowledgeable Advaitans (is there such a word?) who post
to this list. As an American with only a few years study of Advaita through
the Vedanta Society - a Ramakrishna order - it is sometimes difficult for me
to understand the Indian terminology (not your fault), and that limits my
understanding of the discussion. I get something out of all the posts, but
it is particularly helpful to read those such as Sadanadna's, which I can
understand almost completely. Thanks to

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:17:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


In the Prabodha-sudhaakara, Shankara describes the experience of the Bliss
(Ananda) that is Brahman in terms of tasting a sweet thing such as jaggery.
By studying the books (scriptures), one comes to the conclusion, "jaggery
is sweet." The Guru will point out the place where jaggery is to be found.
But only by self experience, ie. by actually tasting jaggery
himself/herself, does the seeker feel "Yes! I am tasting jaggery and it is
sweet!" and know the taste.

For pointing out the place where jaggery is found, we have to be indebted
to the Guru. At the same time, we cannot expect the Guru to pick up the
jaggery and spoon-feed us! Especially, in these corrupt times, it is
hard to find a really great Guru. Even if we find one, he will probably
not be easily accessible either because he shuns society in general or
because he is so famous that he is constantly mobbed by people. So we
have to be pragmatic about learning from such a Guru. Often, what happens
is such a Guru will spend only a very brief period of time with us and
instruct us briefly. It is up to us to "work on it" for a long time after
the brief encounter. If we fail to do that we will be doing ourselves a
disservice. I know of one instance where a Guru in an apparently random
fashion selected a person from a crowd and asked him to lead him to his
house, where the Guru instructed the person to unearth a shiva-linga
lying under his house and worship it. This person did so and as he
started worshipping the shiva-linga, it became abundantly clear to
everyone that he was a changed man. One could see a kind of glow on his
face. Not only that, one could discern that his whole view of the world
had changed. Now, if this person had expected the Guru to come to his house
everyday and do his pUjA for him, he would not have made any progress
at all!

We also hear of similar incidents in Sringeri where a pilgrim is
given a brief mantra-upadesha by the Jagadguru. The pilgrim has to
work on it with his/her possible efforts to achieve any progress.

The moral of the story: Don't expect too many miracles from Gurus;
expect miracles from yourself. The Guru can only be a guide after all,
albeit an invaluable

>From Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_sundaram at i...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:10:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_sundaram at i...>


Sadananda wrote:
> The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB
> related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully
> estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam

Also, earlier Sadananda wrote:
> One does not have to hunt for a teacher - the teacher shall come if
> the student is ready. I have experienced this in my own life.

Namaskaram.
 To try and address some aspects of your mail, Sadananda-ji, while I must
admit the value of most of the things you note, I still hold to my point
that the Guru does not "appear" when the student is "ready". I have pasted
a small section of your mail(s) above. Shankra clearly says, as you also
note: "Let him approach a teacher" - so, the idea is clearly that the
student has to approach the teacher ... what sort of teacher must he
approach? then Shankara explains that the sort of teacher the student has
to approach must be established in Brahman, learned in the scriptures etc.
After finding one such teacher, Shankara, in the vivekachUdAmani, explains
how the student must appraoch the teacher - with a samith in hand etc. I
don't have the reference but should be easy to find. Again, take any purana
or upanishad-ic story. The student approaches the Guru. Not the other way.
 Take even your good example about buying things from a store. There store
keeper did not give you something and tell you to use it. You went there
and bought what you wanted right??

> it is told that it is indeed blessings of the Lord that a student is
> directed to a particular teacher.

 Again, your own words betray a deeper thought - the Lord directs the
student to a particular teacher. The Lord does not direct a teacher to a
particular student!

> Paul Burton was directed to Ramana Maharshi by Kanchi Kaama koti.

 Take also the example you gave. The student (Paul Burton) was **directed**
to the teacher (Ramana Maharishi); don't you think it would have been as
simple enough for the Kanchi Acharya to tell Paul that the teacher
would "come and teach him"?

 To take a small verse from the Gita, Sri Krishna tells Arjuna to give up
everything and surrender to Him and then He (Krishna) will reliberate
Arjuna from the fetters of his sins. Krishna does not tell Arjuna: "Arjuna,
get ready and wait; I will then come and liberate you ...".

 My point here is only this:
A student MUST take the effort to reach out to the teacher whom he (the
student) thinks can teach him and guide him. The teacher or Guru at that
time will, out of his boundless compassion, tell the student what he must
do. It is (in my personal opinion) wrong for us to sit and wait for the
Guru to show up.
bhava shankara desikame

>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Logan chettiar
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:04:01 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 02/28/01 12:00 PM -----

 Logan chettiar
 <loganmailbox@ Introduction
 yahoo.com>

 02/28/01 11:30
 AM


 The reason my enrollment to this mailing list is
to learn more about Advita

Subject: Self-effort and Bhakti
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:32:10 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Chaitanya Bhagavat" <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...>


Anand Hudli wrote:

>And advaita is precisely demanding on this
>natural trait of ours, which should not be a big demand at all!
>advaita does not, in general, agree that we can be carried over
>to the other side like kittens/cubs in the mouth of their mother,
>without any effort on their part, as taught in other systems promoting
>bhakti. I have great respect for systems based solely on bhakti but
>advaita is different from them. The yoga-vAsiShTha, for example,
>clearly emphasizes that our own effort is required, leaving nothing
>to chance or fate.
>

My understanding of the role of self-effort in the Bhakti school is
different. From what you say, one would assume that self-effort is not
required by the Bhakta because the Lord will ferry him across (the ocean
of transmigration).

Even if Krishna says "Give up all Dharma and surrender only unto Me", I
have to exercise my free will to give up. The Lord won't carry me over
until and unless I give up my illusion (that I'm the doer, I'm the
proprietor, I'm the enjoyer, etc.) which keeps me in Samsara. Only we we
voluntarily relinquish these faulty notions and place ourselves entirely
at His disposal, meant for His enjoyment will the Lord accept us. That we
are still in this world indicates that we don't want to be with Him! He
manifests Himself before us when we want Him and only Him. Nothing short
of Him will do.

At first glance it may seem that the Bhakti school removes the
responsibility from the individual soul and places it on the Lord. But
upon taking a closer look it's clear to me that the real burden is clearly
on your shoulders. Only when you completely rid yourself of every last
trace of ego and attachment for the world will you go to the Lord. It
indeed demands a tremendous amount of self-effort! In my opinion,
self-effort is clearly not a prerogative of the the Jnana school alone.

Chaitanya


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:40:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


>Sadananda wrote:
>> The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB
>> related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully
>> estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam
>
>Also, earlier Sadananda wrote:
>> One does not have to hunt for a teacher - the teacher shall come if
>> the student is ready. I have experienced this in my own life.
>
>Namaskaram.
> To try and address some aspects of your mail, Sadananda-ji, while I must
>admit the value of most of the things you note, I still hold to my point
>that the Guru does not "appear" when the student is "ready". I have pasted
>a small section of your mail(s) above. Shankra clearly says, as you also
>note: "Let him approach a teacher" - so, the idea is clearly that the
>student has to approach the teacher ... what sort of teacher must he
>approach? then Shankara explains that the sort of teacher the student has
>to approach must be established in Brahman, learned in the scriptures etc.
>After finding one such teacher, Shankara, in the vivekachUdAmani, explains
>how the student must appraoch the teacher - with a samith in hand etc. I
>don't have the reference but should be easy to find. Again, take any purana
>or upanishad-ic story. The student approaches the Guru. Not the other way.
> Take even your good example about buying things from a store. There store
>keeper did not give you something and tell you to use it. You went there
>and bought what you wanted right??
>
>> it is told that it is indeed blessings of the Lord that a student is
>> directed to a particular teacher.
>
> Again, your own words betray a deeper thought - the Lord directs the
>student to a particular teacher. The Lord does not direct a teacher to a
>particular student!
>
>> Paul Burton was directed to Ramana Maharshi by Kanchi Kaama koti.
>
> Take also the example you gave. The student (Paul Burton) was **directed**
>to the teacher (Ramana Maharishi); don't you think it would have been as
>simple enough for the Kanchi Acharya to tell Paul that the teacher
>would "come and teach him"?
>
> To take a small verse from the Gita, Sri Krishna tells Arjuna to give up
>everything and surrender to Him and then He (Krishna) will reliberate
>Arjuna from the fetters of his sins. Krishna does not tell Arjuna: "Arjuna,
>get ready and wait; I will then come and liberate you ...".
>
> My point here is only this:
>A student MUST take the effort to reach out to the teacher whom he (the
>student) thinks can teach him and guide him. The teacher or Guru at that
>time will, out of his boundless compassion, tell the student what he must
>do. It is (in my personal opinion) wrong for us to sit and wait for the
>Guru to show up.
>bhava shankara desikame sharaNam
>Vaidya.

Vaidya -As I understand - I do not think we are really talking two
different things in the final analysis. I am emphasizing that one
should prepare oneself where ever he is placed using his available
means rather than just go and hunt for a teacher when the student
himself is not prepared properly - in the manDukya mantra the first
part I omitted and only gave a jist of it - that involves the
vairaagya and mumukshutvam -
 pariikshya lokan karmachitaan brahmaNo
 nirvadamaayaanaashchyakR^itakR^itena
 tad vij~naanrtha .... etc

The idea is if one prepares himself properly then he knows what kind
of teacher would be of help even when he meets one - That is why I
emphasized that satsanghan is very important and listening to
mahaatmaas as one encounter during life -journey. Yes you are right
the student must open himself for the teacher to teaching to take
place. No I do not think a student should run around in search of a
teacher - as a look around shopping trip. - unless he knows
precisely that some one is his teacher by knowing and hearing about
his teaching. As I understand Shankara did not go in search of some
teacher - He went in search of Govindaacharya since he knew he was
his teacher. One has to keep his eyes and heart open but most
important thing is he has to prepare himself in the environment he is
placed.

If one goes for hunting for a teacher when one is not ready - I am
afraid he will be wasting his time. The upanishads teachers are for
mature students who have the saadhana chatutshhTayam.

By the by - I did not go in search of a teacher. In fact I was
antiguru-s, brainwashed by JK's teachings. But with rational
intelectual traning -I could not dismiss the powerful logical
analysis presented when I was forced to attend the lecture. But
looking back all the past experiences only prepared my mind to
appreciate when the teaching was unfolded. Hence the emphasis on the
preparing oneself than looking for a teacher. When one is prepared
Lord himself will guide the student to a proper teacher - whether the
teacher comes or the student goes all depends on the type of the
teacher and the student. - I heard toTapuri went to educate
Ramakrishna. Yaj~navalkya went to Janaka in BR^i. Up. I have heard
also the cases the students went in search of a particular
mahaatma-s. But one cannot go in a teacher-shopping trip. That is
the emphasis of my notes.

I hope I am clear now.

Hari Om!
Sadananda

--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From kartik at K...
Subject: Re: Self-effort and Bhakti
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:51:12 GMT
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: kartik at K...


OM
This is a very difficult question to answer. The only
source I know that answers these questions is Sri Narad
Bhakti Sutras.
If you need a copy of the book Narad Bhakti Sutras by Sri
Swami Sivananda please let me know at kvashisht at y...
Pranam
OM

> Anand Hudli wrote:
>
> >And advaita is precisely demanding on this
> >natural trait of ours, which should not be a big demand
at all!
> >advaita does not, in general, agree that we can be
carried over
> >to the other side like kittens/cubs in the mouth of
their mother,
> >without any effort on their part, as taught in other
systems promoting
> >bhakti. I have great respect for systems based solely on
bhakti but
> >advaita is different from them. The yoga-vAsiShTha, for
example,
> >clearly emphasizes that our own effort is required,
leaving nothing
> >to chance or fate.
> >
>
> My understanding of the role of self-effort in the Bhakti
school is
> different. From what you say, one would assume that self-
effort is not
> required by the Bhakta because the Lord will ferry him
across (the ocean
> of transmigration).
>
> Even if Krishna says "Give up all Dharma and surrender
only unto Me", I
> have to exercise my free will to give up. The Lord won't
carry me over
> until and unless I give up my illusion (that I'm the
doer, I'm the
> proprietor, I'm the enjoyer, etc.) which keeps me in
Samsara. Only we we
> voluntarily relinquish these faulty notions and place
ourselves entirely
> at His disposal, meant for His enjoyment will the Lord
accept us. That we
> are still in this world indicates that we don't want to
be with Him! He
> manifests Himself before us when we want Him and only
Him. Nothing short
> of Him will do.
>
> At first glance it may seem that the Bhakti school
removes the
> responsibility from the individual soul and places it on
the Lord. But
> upon taking a closer look it's clear to me that the real
burden is clearly
> on your shoulders. Only when you completely rid yourself
of every last
> trace of ego and attachment for the world will you go to
the Lord. It
> indeed demands a tremendous amount of self-effort! In my
opinion,
> self-effort is clearly not a prerogative of the the Jnana
school alone.
>
> Chaitanya
>
>
>
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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:41:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: Our Fundamental Error - Part 5 of 11
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Note: forwarded message attached.


__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:44:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-effort and Bhakti
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:32:10 -0500, Chaitanya Bhagavat
<chaitanya_bhagavat at H...> wrote:

>Anand Hudli wrote:
>
>>And advaita is precisely demanding on this
>>natural trait of ours, which should not be a big demand at all!
>>advaita does not, in general, agree that we can be carried over
>>to the other side like kittens/cubs in the mouth of their mother,
>>without any effort on their part, as taught in other systems promoting
>>bhakti. I have great respect for systems based solely on bhakti but
>>advaita is different from them. The yoga-vAsiShTha, for example,
>>clearly emphasizes that our own effort is required, leaving nothing
>>to chance or fate.
>>
>
>My understanding of the role of self-effort in the Bhakti school is
>different. From what you say, one would assume that self-effort is not
>required by the Bhakta because the Lord will ferry him across (the ocean
>of transmigration).
>
>Even if Krishna says "Give up all Dharma and surrender only unto Me", I
>have to exercise my free will to give up. The Lord won't carry me over
>until and unless I give up my illusion (that I'm the doer, I'm the
>proprietor, I'm the enjoyer, etc.) which keeps me in Samsara. Only we we
>voluntarily relinquish these faulty notions and place ourselves entirely
>at His disposal, meant for His enjoyment will the Lord accept us. That we
>are still in this world indicates that we don't want to be with Him! He
>manifests Himself before us when we want Him and only Him. Nothing short
>of Him will do.
>
>At first glance it may seem that the Bhakti school removes the
>responsibility from the individual soul and places it on the Lord. But
>upon taking a closer look it's clear to me that the real burden is clearly
>on your shoulders. Only when you completely rid yourself of every last
>trace of ego and attachment for the world will you go to the Lord. It
>indeed demands a tremendous amount of self-effort! In my opinion,
>self-effort is clearly not a prerogative of the the Jnana school alone.

Perhaps I have not understood the deeper significance of sharaNAgati
as taught in shrIvaiShNavism. I still have problems understanding it.
I had written earlier on this. Please see:

http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m7078.html

What does surrendering the ego (I am the doer, enjoyer,etc) mean? This
is problematic for an advaitin. If you surrender your ego completely,
then by definition you are no longer under the control of mAyA and hence
liberated, a jIvanmukta. Then why would you worry about "this side",
"that side", and crossing over. It is already taken care of! Even
jIvanmuktas appreciate and glorify God because they see Him in themselves
and everywhere. There is no "act" of surrender involved, no effort
involved.

When the ego has not disappeared, I can understand how we can progressively
give it up. First we must understand that it is NOT possible to give up
the ego if we have the notion that God is different from our own Self.
MadhusUdana describes three kinds of surrender 1) as a servant/follower
of God with the notion "I am His", 2) with the notion "He is mine",
example, "He is my friend", "He is my son", etc. and 3) "I am He", a
case of complete identity.

Note that in both 1) and 2), there will be some ego left, because we
still have difference between God and devotee and with different
identities. When we say "I am His servant", there cannot be a notion
"I am not apart from Him. What I do is done by Him." Rather there
will be a notion "I must follow His laws, His commands, etc." Or
"I must feed Him", "I must welcome Him", "I must bathe Him", etc.

It is only in stage 3), when there is the notion "I am He" that there
is no egoistic notion. The "I" has been dissolved in "He."

It is clear from the advaita point of view that for one who has lost
the ego, there is no effort involved in "crossing over." However,
for one with ego, even a little ego, effort must be applied to get
rid of it. But the shrIvaiShNava discipline seems to suggest that
the ego can be surrendered in the sense of "I am His" or "He is mine",
and from that point on, God takes care of us. From the advaita point
of view, such surrender does not mean loss of ego.

The problem that causes this confusion is the difference in philosophy.
Surrender of ego does not mean loss of individuality in shrIvaiShNavism
but it does in advaita. A shrIvaiShNava can claim that he has surrendered
his ego to God, retaining his individuality, and that God is taking care
of him and will eventually carry him over like a lioness carries her cub
gently in the mouth. In advaita, it is inconceivable that the ego
can be surrendered keeping the individuality intact. Surrendering the
ego to God necessarily means losing individuality (upAdhis) in God. At
that point, God and devotee are identical.

Anand

PS: I always thought the lioness carrying her cub in the mouth is more
dramatic and awe-inspiring than a domestic cat carrying her kitten.

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:05:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Thanks
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Jaldharji,

My question to the list members is are there any other projects we can
undertake? Even if I don't participate myself, I can provide facilities
for people with good ideas.

Since there are many who complain about not understanding many of the sanskrit
words a (slowly growing) GLOSSARY might be helpful for them.

Just a thought.

__________________________________________________
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>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:38:59 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Self-effort and Bhakti
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Anand Hudli wrote:

> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:32:10 -0500, Chaitanya Bhagavat
> <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...> wrote:
>
> >Anand Hudli wrote:

> .... ...... ....... ......... .......
> >
>
> Anand
>
> PS: I always thought the lioness carrying her cub in the mouth is more
> dramatic and awe-inspiring than a domestic cat carrying her kitten. :-)

Whether lioness or domestic cat, the principle is the same viz. the mother
takes full responsibility for transporting the cub safely from point A to point
B.
The cub makes no effort at all. This is known as the maarjaara nyaaya -
cat principle.
The opposite principle is the markata nyaaya - the monkey principle. In the
case
of the monkey, it is the cub that has to cling to the mother for dear life,
as the latter
jumps from tree to tree. The mother allows the hitch-hike, but takes no
responsibility
for safe transportation ! The cub is entirely responsible for its own survival
during
the journey.

Note that both examples refer to the transportation stage only. In advaita,
once you have lost your ego, you have already reached the destination.

 I have said something that just came to my mind. I hope it is

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:29:59 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


 SAD-GURU MAHIMAA

dR^ishhtanto naiva dR^ishhtas-tribhuvana jaTHare sadguror-jnaana-daatuH
sparshhas-cet tatra kalpyaH sa nayati yadaho svarNataam ashma-saaraM |
na sparshatvam tathaapi shR^ita-caraNa-yuge sadguruH sviiya-shishhye
sviiyam saamyam vidhatte bhavati nirupamastena va'laukiko'pi ||

In all the three worlds (tribhuvana jaTHare), there is nothing at all comparable
(dR^ishtanto naiva dR^ishhtaH) to a real guru (sadguruH), who imparts
spiritual knowledge (jnaana dataa ).

A sadguru does not just teach. He transforms his disciple from an ignorant
person
into a jnaani. This is a miracle by itself.
 A philosopher's stone (sparshaH) also miraculously converts a piece of iron into

gold (yadaho! ashma-saaram svarNataam nayati).
But the comparison stops there.
The sparsha stone does not convert the piece of iron into another piece of
sparsha (na sparshatvam nayati), capable of converting other pieces of iron into
gold. Whereas
the sad-guru not only transforms his disciple, but also bestows (vidhatte) on
his disciple
(sviiye shishhye) the power to be equal to the guru himself (sviiyam saamyam) --
i.e. fitness to become a guru in his turn and transform other ignorant persons.
This is why a sadguru is incomparable (nirupamaH) and unique (alaukikaH)

Thus is a guru parmparaa

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:51:16 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


 Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka
100.

Shlokam 1

 agre pashyaami tejo nibiDatara- kalaayaavalii- lobhaniiyam
 piiyuushhaa-plaavito'ham tadanu tadudare divya-kaishora-veshham |
 taaruNyaa-rambha-ramyam parama-sukha-rasaa-svaada-romancitaangaiH
 aaviitam naarad-aadyair-vilasad-upanishhad-sundarii-maNDalaiH-ca ||

 [NaaraayaNa BhaTTatiri gives a graphic head to foot description of the
image
 of KR^shhNa at the Guruvayoor temple] :

 I see in front of me (agre pashyaami) a brilliance (tejo).
 This brilliance is captivating (lobhaniiyam) like a densely packed
(nibiDatara)
 bunch or bouquet of kalaayaa flowers (kalaayaavalii).
 [Kalaayaa is a flower which is a brilliant blue in colour]
 I am drenched in a shower of nectar (piiyuushha-aaplaavito'ham) at this
sight !

 Then (tad-anu) , at the very core (tad-udare) of that brilliance,
 I see the divine form of a boy ( divya kaishora veshham).
 His form is particularly pleasing (ramyam) because his youth
(taaruNyam)
 is just blossoming (aarambham).

He is surrounded (aaviita) by sages like naarada and others
(naarada-adyaiH).
These sages are experiencing supreme bliss ( parama sukha rasa
aasvaadanam).
And because of that experience their hairs are standing on end
(romancita)
on their limbs (angaiH) !
He is also surrounded by groups (maNDalaiH) of resplendent (vilasat)
beautiful damsels (sundarii). Who are these damsels? They are the
upanishhads
themselves !

[ Reminiscent of gopastrii pariveshhTitaH ? ]


If the list members are interested :
(i) I shall continue posting the other shlokas also.
(ii) I shall also post some info on NaraayaNa Bhattatiri and his
NaaraayaNiiyam.
Please let me have your feedback.

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:29:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Self-effort and Bhakti - just some thoughts
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>Anand Hudli wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:32:10 -0500, Chaitanya Bhagavat
>> <chaitanya_bhagavat at H...> wrote:
>>
> > >Anand Hudli wrote:

Shree Sundaram wrote:

>
>Whether lioness or domestic cat, the principle is the same viz. the mother
>takes full responsibility for transporting the cub safely from point
>A to point
>B.
>The cub makes no effort at all. This is known as the maarjaara nyaaya -
>cat principle.
>The opposite principle is the markata nyaaya - the monkey principle. In the
>case
>of the monkey, it is the cub that has to cling to the mother for dear life,
>as the latter
>jumps from tree to tree. The mother allows the hitch-hike, but takes no
>responsibility
>for safe transportation ! The cub is entirely responsible for its
>own survival
>during
>the journey.
>
>Note that both examples refer to the transportation stage only. In advaita,
>once you have lost your ego, you have already reached the destination.
>
> I have said something that just came to my mind. I hope it is not
>irrelevant.
>
>V.M.Sundaram.

As I understand the distinction between vaDahali and Tengalai in the
Shree Vaishanavism essentially rests on this difference in the
Sharanaagati - maarjaara and markata nyaaya-s - cat and monkey
analogy.

Anand - I looked at the write-up you had on Sharanaagati --

"The principle of sharaNAgati or prapatti as found in shrivaiShNava
 works is not found in advaita. The only advaitin that I know of who
 comes close to something like sharaNAgati is MadhusUdana SarasvatI.
 But then he seems to treat it the same as bhakti.

 The support for sharaNAgati is often claimed to be gItA verse 18.66
 by the shrivaiShNavas, referring to the famous words "sarvadharmAn.h
 parityajya mAmekaM sharaNaM vraja ...

 This does not mean, MadhusUdana points out, that one should abandon
 all karmas/duties and surrender to God. This will be against the
 teaching of the gItA itself because it drives home the point
 that all actions should be performed with a sense of dedication
 of the fruits of those actions to God or abandoning only the fruits
 of actions."
-----------------------------
As I understand - Bhagavaan Ramanuja does not interpret that
sarvadharmaan prarityajya - involves giving up all the actions - The
emphasis is only on kaikarya - offering to the Lord all actions and
the fruits of the actions. Nitya naimittika karmas - daily and
occasional obligatory duties must be performed that includes
archarna, sandhyaavandana etc. What is surrendered is the ego at the
altar of the Lord. What is give up includes kaamya and of course
nishiddha karam-s. In vishishhTaadvaita surrenderance of ego
involves recognizing the aswatantra aspect (dependence ) of the jiiva
on the Lord and in fact the avidya that is talked about is exactly
this - Jiva thinks he is swatantra operates with that notion and gets
entangled in Maaya. The key Giita sloka 7-14 that is emphasized is -
daivii hyeshhaa guNa mayii mama maaya duratyayaa, maamevaye
prapadyante maayaametam tarantite - this maya of mine is of divine
origin and is impossible to cross over by one's self-effort - Only
surrendering to me one can overcome this maaya - Here me stands for
Naarayaayan who is sarvaswatantra and is only one who can help in
crossing this maaya - since rest of gods are considered as exhaulted
jiiva-s only with limited powers that also given by the grace of
NaaraayaNa. In the very Naaraayana Mantra - na ra and ayana - ra
means that which gets destroyed and na ra means that which does not
get destroyed - that includes three satyams- jiiva, jagat and
paramaatma - ayana the very goal - hence NaarayaNa is the very goal
for the rest of the two - They very substratum of the whole thing.

There are various types of sharanaagati-s that are mentioned under
prapatti - but the essence is the same - surrendering the one's will
to the Lord and perform all nitya niamittika karmas as kainkarya to
the Lord. Hence what is given up is only the notion of doer-ship and
the fruits of the results - shesha- sheshi dharma involving
dependence of jiiva, and purpose of the jiiva is to be involved in
the service of the Lord. Service involve action hence action is not
totally given up under prapatti. - but the acation is redircted
towards the service of the Lord that involves - nitya naimittika
karam-s - that includes bhaagavata seva - service of the Lord and
service to the devotes of the Lord.

One interesting note - I just learned from Shree Krishna Kalale that
Shree Ramanuja and Shree Vedanta Deshika interpreted swadharma as
karmayoga and paradharma as j~naanayoga - I am still waiting to learn
the motivation behind this interpretation.

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:59:41
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


It has been a while I read Narayaneeyam. I would certainly like to read
these slokas again.

But I believe this sloka (agre pashyaami) is the first sloka (dashaka 1) and
not part of Dashaka 100. I could be wrong.

Thanks,
Ravi

>From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at P...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:51:16 +0800
>
> Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka
>100.
>
>Shlokam 1
>
> agre pashyaami tejo nibiDatara- kalaayaavalii- lobhaniiyam
> piiyuushhaa-plaavito'ham tadanu tadudare divya-kaishora-veshham |
> taaruNyaa-rambha-ramyam parama-sukha-rasaa-svaada-romancitaangaiH
> aaviitam naarad-aadyair-vilasad-upanishhad-sundarii-maNDalaiH-ca ||
>
> [NaaraayaNa BhaTTatiri gives a graphic head to foot description of the
>image
> of KR^shhNa at the Guruvayoor temple] :
>
> I see in front of me (agre pashyaami) a brilliance (tejo).
> This brilliance is captivating (lobhaniiyam) like a densely packed
>(nibiDatara)
> bunch or bouquet of kalaayaa flowers (kalaayaavalii).
> [Kalaayaa is a flower which is a brilliant blue in colour]
> I am drenched in a shower of nectar (piiyuushha-aaplaavito'ham) at this
>sight !
>
> Then (tad-anu) , at the very core (tad-udare) of that brilliance,
> I see the divine form of a boy ( divya kaishora veshham).
> His form is particularly pleasing (ramyam) because his youth
>(taaruNyam)
> is just blossoming (aarambham).
>
>He is surrounded (aaviita) by sages like naarada and others
>(naarada-adyaiH).
>These sages are experiencing supreme bliss ( parama sukha rasa
>aasvaadanam).
>And because of that experience their hairs are standing on end
>(romancita)
>on their limbs (angaiH) !
>He is also surrounded by groups (maNDalaiH) of resplendent (vilasat)
>beautiful damsels (sundarii). Who are these damsels? They are the
>upanishhads
>themselves !
>
>[ Reminiscent of gopastrii pariveshhTitaH ? ]
>
>
>If the list members are interested :
>(i) I shall continue posting the other shlokas also.
>(ii) I shall also post some info on NaraayaNa Bhattatiri and his
>NaaraayaNiiyam.
>Please let me have your feedback. Thanks.
>
>V.M.Sundaram.

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_sundaram at i...>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:52:28 -0500
Subject: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vaidya Sundaram <vaidya_sundaram at i...>


> If the list members are interested :
> (i) I shall continue posting the other shlokas also.
> (ii) I shall also post some info on NaraayaNa Bhattatiri and his
> NaaraayaNiiyam. Please let me have your feedback. Thanks.

Namaskaram.
 Yes please! I would one of the members who is very interested in this, and
would like very much for you to post these as time

>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Naresh Cuntoor
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:55:40 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 03/01/01 09:53 AM -----

 "Naresh
 Cuntoor" Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 <n.cuntoor at l...
 cos.com>

 02/28/01
 04:08 PM
 Please
 respond to
 n.cuntoor


Namaste,
My name is Naresh Cuntoor. Here's my little bio. Born in Mysore and raised
in Bangalore, I am currently pursuing masters degree in Electrical
Engineering in the University of Maryland, USA.
A curiosity and desire to learn more about our culture has brought me here.
Admittedly, I know nothing about Advaita philosophy. But one has to make a
beginning somewhere, right? I hope to gain some knowledge and insight into
Sri Shankara's

>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:10:02 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


>From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at P...>
>
>
>If the list members are interested :
>(i) I shall continue posting the other shlokas also.
>(ii) I shall also post some info on NaraayaNa Bhattatiri and his
>NaaraayaNiiyam.
>Please let me have your feedback. Thanks.
>

Yes please continue posting. Thank you very much for posting these beautiful
verses. Also, since I am clueless about the Naaraayaneeyam (since I come
from North India), could you also post a background to its composition.

thanks again
ashish
_________________________________________________________________
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>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:49:39 -0000
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


>Reality is beyond the reach of the intellect. So the sharpest intellect
>will still not be able to reach it. In Indian Philosophy, the sharpest
>and the most abstract dialectic is only to prove the *unreality* of the
>world - it has nothing to do with reality.

My understanding is that the world is not unreal, it is real but only
appears as it does in the vyavaharic plane.
Reality is definitely beyond the intellect, but that is the only tool you
have got to reject all the unreal. However unseemly it looks, reality is not
generated as a result of any effort at all, the effort is only to remove the
obstacles. Ultimately, each and every tool has to be rejected. All these
exist only in the vyavaharic sense, so in brahmAnubhava there is nothing
other than the brahman. This is my understanding.


>So even here, by jnanam is only meant Atma jnanam which can be intuitively
>obtained by Atma Vicharam. This atma vicharam is very intuitive and has
>very little to do with the sharpness of the intellect - where all that is
>needed is to turn >the mind inward and probe and find oneself. As Ramana
>taught, just try to know who you are - "who am i" - if you're faithful to
>that ideal, that itself will lead you to the goal.

This enquiry will not sustain in a person with a weak intellect. That is why
not everyone is suited for the jnana marga. Again this in my understanding.

--A lot of good info deleted

Namaste,
Savithri
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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From Raghavendra Hebbalalu <hs_raghavendra at y...>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:19:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Raghavendra Hebbalalu <hs_raghavendra at y...>


namaH sarvebhyaH,
 What Nanda Chandran said was that since the
intellect is also part of this world, it too is unreal
and hence cannot comprehend reality. Reality is devoid
of all differences like the knower and the known. So
in a sense both are saying the same thing.

BhagavAn says in the gItA (10-10)
'teShAM satata-yuktAnAM bhajatAM prItipUrvakam.h |
 dadAmi buddhi-yogaM taM yena mAmupayAnti te ||'

"For those who are ever devoted to Me and worship Me
with love, I give them the yoga of the Intellect or
Understanding, by which they attain Me."

Am I right in understanding that buddhiyoga is not
different from AtmavichAra ? If so, the final step is
AtmavichAra.

That makes jnAna mArga the only mArga for advaita. The
rest, while not being any less important, are but of a
preparatory nature.

I feel that the path of shravaNa, manana and
nididhyAsana is the standard path for advaita, be it
the 20th or the 30th century.

Members are welcome to correct me.

| Hari OM |
Raghavendra.

> This enquiry will not sustain in a person with a
> weak intellect. That is why
> not everyone is suited for the jnana marga. Again
> this in my understanding.


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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:00:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:51:16 +0800, V.M.Sundaram
<venkataraman at P...> wrote:

>
>
>If the list members are interested :
>(i) I shall continue posting the other shlokas also.
>(ii) I shall also post some info on NaraayaNa Bhattatiri and his
>NaaraayaNiiyam.
>Please let me have your feedback. Thanks.

 Please continue with your posting and if possible, relate the
 verses to something in advaita. I know a lot of verses in this
 text have to do with bhakti but here and there it is possible to
 put them in a jnAna perspective also. Was it not Ramakrishna
 who said that bhAgavata is fried in jnAna and dipped in the
 sweet syrup of bhakti (or something like

>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:53:03 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


> What Nanda Chandran said was that since the
>intellect is also part of this world, it too is unreal
>and hence cannot comprehend reality. Reality is devoid
>of all differences like the knower and the known. So
>in a sense both are saying the same thing.
>

I agree.

>Am I right in understanding that buddhiyoga is not
>different from AtmavichAra ? If so, the final step is
>AtmavichAra.
>
That seems correct to me.

I am reading this incredibly beautiful book by Sri.Sacchidanandendra
Saraswati swamiji - "Intuition of Reality". It is really a must-read for a
serious aspirant. As I read and understand it, I feel like I am this close..
to the anubhava! The author interprets Shankara's advaita very clearly as
it relates to reality and how the aspirant can practically intuit it. He has
lots of quotes from the brahmasUtra bhashya and from the upanishads. It is
an original in English and only about 100 pages. It can be obtained from
Adhyathma Prakasha Karyalaya in Bangalore.

I must thank another list member, Mr.Stig Lundgren, for kindling the
interest in re-reading Swami Sacchidanandendra Saraswati's books once again.

Namaste,
Savithri
_________________________________________________________________
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>From Raghavendra <hs_raghavendra at y...>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:40:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Raghavendra <hs_raghavendra at y...>


>I am reading this incredibly beautiful book by Sri.Sacchidanandendra
>Saraswati swamiji - "Intuition of Reality". It is really a must-read for a
>serious aspirant. As I read and understand it, I feel like I am this
close..
>to the anubhava! The author interprets Shankara's advaita very clearly as
>it relates to reality and how the aspirant can practically intuit it. He
has
>lots of quotes from the brahmasUtra bhashya and from the upanishads. It is
>an original in English and only about 100 pages. It can be obtained from
>Adhyathma Prakasha Karyalaya in Bangalore.


There is another great book in Kannada by shrI sacchidAnandendra sarasvatI
titled paramArtha-chintAmaNi. I think its English Translation is
titled 'The Magic Jewel of Intuition'. In around 200 pages of Kannada, it
challenges reality as we see it in vyavahAra and methodically talks about
the avasthA-traya-prakriyA and its importance. It is basically about how
aspirants can practically engage in AtmavichAra. I highly recommend it for
all serious

>From "Stig Lundgren" <slu at C...>
Subject: Re: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:41:13 +0100
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Stig Lundgren" <slu at C...>


Savithri Devaraj wrote:

> I must thank another list member, Mr.Stig Lundgren, for
kindling the
> interest in re-reading Swami Sacchidanandendra Saraswati's
books once again.
>

Thank you very much for your kind words! A few months ago - i
believe it was in early november - Jaldhar H. Vyas asked me to
post something on this list about this Holenarsipur Swami
Sacchidanandendra Saraswati (1880-1975). I just want to you to
know that I have not forgot Jaldhars request, and I am actually
planning to do some postings soon. However, I am terribly busy
working on my PhD. That´s the reason for the delay. I beg your
pardon for this.

Warm regards
Stig

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:33:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I have posed a lot of questions below. Please don't misunderstand that I am
challenging what you are saying. Far from it.

It is 70% doubt, 30% disagreement.

Sri Nanda Chandran wrote:

> Reality is beyond the reach of the intellect.

Where is it cognized that it is beyond the intellect ? Intellect ?

> So the sharpest intellect will still not be able to reach it.

Is "Aham brahmAsmi" a vritti or not ?

> Ofcourse, by such negation itself - neti, neti - one can rise above the
> intellectual categories and then intuitively experience Reality.

Can you define intuition ? Where does it happen ? In the intellect or outside
of it ? If inside then it cannot rise above intellectual categories. If
outside of it, then what/where is it ?

Is intuition a means of knowledge ? What is the Sanskrit word for intuition ?
Can you point to any verse in the Principal Upanishads that says that the
reality is to be experienced through intuition ? (jnAna is immediate/direct
knowledge, not intuition)

Again can one experience without the intellect ?

> At best philosophy acts as a pointer - a pointer to the reality transcending
> the unreal.

Should we see it as a pointer or as an instrument of knowledge (pramANam) ?
Eye is not a pointer to the vision. Ear is not a pointer to sound. Both are
part of the perception of vision and sound respectively. Similarly the truths
of Vedanta is part of the knowledge of reality - right/wrong ??

In the above questions, I am not trying to say that knowledge happens in the
intellect, but the role of intellect is indispensable. At no point in
understanding can we throw away the intellect saying, we don't need it anymore.
 May be only in death.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:48:31 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Ravishankar Venkatraman wrote:

> It has been a while I read Narayaneeyam. I would certainly like to read
> these slokas again.
>
> But I believe this sloka (agre pashyaami) is the first sloka (dashaka 1) and
> not part of Dashaka 100. I could be wrong.
>
> Thanks,
> Ravi

namaste Ravi.
 The shloka starting with agre pashyaami ... is the first one in the 100 th
dashakam.
 The first shloka in the 1 st dashakam starts with :
 saandraananda-avabodhaatmakam anupamitam .....



>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:22:22 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Anand Hudli wrote:

> Please continue with your posting and if possible, relate the
> verses to something in advaita. I know a lot of verses in this
> text have to do with bhakti but here and there it is possible to
> put them in a jnAna perspective also. Was it not Ramakrishna
> who said that bhAgavata is fried in jnAna and dipped in the
> sweet syrup of bhakti (or something like that)?
>
> Anand

 Yes indeed Anandji.
NarayaNiiyam is an abridged form
of Bhaagavatam , which makes a delightful combination
of saguNa and nirguNa brahma upaasanaa.
In the very first shloka of NaaraayaNiiyam itself, the poet says

*saandraananda-avabodhaatmakam ... brahma-tattvam ..
gurupavanapure ... saakshaat bhaati *

Brahman which is of the nature of concentrated (pure) Bliss
and Consciousness , that very brahman shines in concrete form
in the temple at Guru-pavana-pura .
He has devoted some whole dashakams to expound the advaitic aspects.
I may not be fit or capable of bringing out the flavour of crisply
fried jalebis steeped in sweet syrup - I shall succeed to the extent
the Lord wills it

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:02:26 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam -background
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Ashish Chandra wrote:

> Yes please continue posting. Thank you very much for posting these beautiful
> verses. Also, since I am clueless about the Naaraayaneeyam (since I come
> from North India), could you also post a background to its composition.

 Dear Ashish mahodaya and other mahaanubhaavas on the list,

 Guruvayuur is a famous temple town in Kerala (close to Coimbatore which
 is in Tamilnadu). Legend has it that Lord KR^shhNa told his devotee and
 minister Uddhava that an image would come floating in the sea which would
 engulf Dwarakaa soon after His incarnation was over. Uddhava was asked
 to request Brihaspati the guru of the devas to install the image at a
suitable place.
 Accordingly, Brihaspati took the image and along with Vaayu went all over
 the world and finally selected this spot and installed the image there. As
the place was selected by Guru and Vaayu, it is called Guru-vaayuur ,or
guru-vaata-pura. (uur means
 pura in malayaalam and tamil). People have unshakable faith that sincere
prayers
 offered to the Lord of guruvaayuur (affectionately called guru-vayuur-appan)
can solve all their problems.

Melpathur NaaraayaNa Bhattatiri was born into a family of scholars in a village

in Kerala in 1560 A.D. At a very young age he had mastered the vedas and
vedangas.
He learnt miimaamsaa and other shaastras from his father, tarka (the science of
logic)
from his elder brother, and vyaakaraNa (grammar) from one Achyuta Pishharoti.
He wrote a monumental work on sanskrit grammar called prakriyaa-sarvasva,
which is similar to siddhaanta-kaumudii which was written much later by
Bhattoji Diikshhita. He composed the NaaraayaNiiyam when he was only 27.

At the age of 27, he was afflicted with a crippling disease and asked to be
carried to
 the Guruvayuur temple. There he started composing a hymn recounting all the
incarnations of Lord NaaraayaNa. In this hymn he summarised the Bhaagavatam,
which consists of about 18000 verses and condensed it to 1034
verses. These are divided into 100 dashakams (cantos) with about ten verses in
each.
He composed at the rate of one dashakam every day.
All through the work he does not adopt a third person narrative style;
but addresses the Lord directly and praises Him , saying "you did this, you did
that"
referring to His exploits in his various avataaras, implying that Bhattatiri had

a direct vision of all His leelaas ! The last line of the last shloka
in every dashaka, implores the lord of guruvayuur to cure him of his disease.

Finally on the 100 th day he had a vision of Lord VeNugopaala The 100 th
dashakam
composed on that day gives a graphic description of this vision from head to
toe.
 On that day, he was cured of his disease. From the last word used by
Bhattatiri
in the last shlokam, scholars have calculated that this happened on 27th
November 1587.
He called his work NaaraayaNiiyam- (a) because it deals with the glory of Lord
NaaraayaNa and (b) because the author's name is also NaaraayaNa.

 Stotrams describing in detail the various limbs of the form of a God or Goddess

 can be either paada-adi kesha-antam (from foot to head), or kesha-adi
paada-antam
 (from head to foot). This particular description is of the former type.

 I started with the 100th dashakam because this dashakam is considered to
be
 very effective for meditation yielding mental peace. I posted the first shlokam

 of this dashakam yesterday. With the kind words of encouragement given by
 many scholars on this list, I am emboldened to continue with the rest of the
100th dashakam.

 Sarve bhadraaNi pashyantu.-- May everyone see auspiciousness

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:25:46 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1B
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 Notes on BSB I-i-4-1B

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .
 suutra: tat tu samanvayaat.h .



Discussion of samanvaya aspect:

First question is therefore what are those six factors or shhat
li~Ngaani? Lingam means an indicator. li~Ngyate iti li~Ngam . That
which indicates is li~Ngam. The shhat li~Ngaani are:

 upakrama - upasa.nhaarau abhyaasaH apuurvataa-phalam.h |
 artha-vaada upapattiH ca li~Ngyam taatparya nirNaye ||

To establish the importance of certain topic six indicators are
enumerated. The first one is upakrama upasamhaarau - which means the
identity or oneness of the theme at the beginning and in the end.
The second one is abhyaasaH or repetition - that which is repeated
must be important. Third one is apuurvataa, whatever enjoys newness,
that which is not known. The fourth one is phalam - fruitfulness or
benefit, something is important only if it is fruitful or useful.
The fifth one is arthavaadaH, or stutiH or glorification, whatever
that is glorified must be important. Finally upapattiH, reason or
logic. Whatever fulfills the logic is of importance and whatever is
illogical or irrational or unreasonable cannot be the central theme.
These are the six factors. In tradition the commentators take one
example for analysis and the standard example is the sixth chapter of
Chandogya Upanishad which is called tat tvam asi prakaraNam . It is
considered as the model chapter. When we apply the six factors to
this chapter, we come out with the conclusion that Brahman is the
central theme of the chapter.

The first factor is upakrama upasamhaara li~Ngam, that is, the
relation to the topic at the beginning and end of the chapter. The
tat tvam asi prakaraNam begins and ends with the discussion of
Brahman. - sad eva saumya idam agra aasiit . ekam eva advitiiyam -
"Hay good-looking one! Existence alone was there in the beginning and
it is one without the second" - thus the beginning of prakaraNa is
revealing the nature of Brahman. The chapter ends with the
statements - aitad aatmyam idam sarvam | tat satyam | saH aatmaa |
tat tvam asi shwetaketo | This entire universe is Brahman. That is
the truth. That is aatmaa. Oh! Swetaketu! that thou art. Thus
Brahman which is the same as aatman is the theme in the beginning and
the end.

The second factor is abhyaasa or repetition. In this chapter of
Chandogya the teacher Uddalaka gives several examples to illustrate
the point and in the end of each example the same statements - aitad
aatmyam idam sarvam | tat satyam | saH aatmaa | tat tvam asi
shwetaketo | - are repeated. It is repeated nine times each time
taking different examples, to indicate that the statements are not a
casual statements but have great significance requiring such extended
repetition. Hence the tat tvam asi is considered as the essential
teaching as mahaavaakya or aphorism.

The third factor is apuurvataa - new topic. Vedanta shaastram
reveals Brahman only, which is new entity since it is not only
unknown but also cannot be known by any other means or pramaaNam .
What is considered as new? The definition of what constitutes new or
apuurvataa is pramaaNaantara avedyam, apuurvatvam. A thing is new if
it is not known or cannot be known through all other instruments of
knowledge. na tatra chakshuH gachchhati na vaak gachchhati no manaH
gachchhati , I cannot know Brahman through the eyes, through the
speech nor by process of analysis of thinking. I cannot even know
Brahman through karmakaanDa or puurvamiimaa.nsaa also. Brahman is
outside the scope of karma - na karmanaa na prajayaa dhanena taygena
eke amR^itatva maanasuH - says the shruti. Brahman is revealed only
by Vedanta - Hence it is apuurva vishhayaH or new knowledge that is
not gained by any other means. Hence apuurvata li~Nga or factor is
satisfied. This apuurvata is also indicated in the sixth chapter of
Chandogya.

Here the teacher asks the student to bring a lump of salt and
dissolve it in a cup of water. Then he asks the student to taste the
water at the top, in the middle and from the bottom of the cup. The
student after tasting, says the water is saltish everywhere. When
the teacher asks the student if he can see the salt in the water, the
students says no. He knows that there was the lump of salt in water
since he himself added it but he can see where the salt is. Since he
could taste salt all-over, the water is pervaded by something other
than water, since he is experiencing it yet he cannot see it any
where in the water and it is imperceptible to the eyes. Having given
this example the teacher says to the student - one knows the body is
bundle of matter, just like a statue which is also made up of
pa~nchabhuutaa -s. Yet one experiences the body as conscious entity
unlike the statue out there, just as the water is saltish. Just as
the water is pervaded by something other than water to make it
saltish, the body is pervaded by something other than matter to make
it conscious. That extra something makes the water saltish, there is
extra something that makes the body alive and conscious. Just as one
can not see that lump of salt that makes the water saltish, similarly
one cannot see that which makes the body alive and conscious. What
is that something that makes the matter enliven. The teacher says -
sad eva saumya idam agra aasiit , ekam eva advitiiyam - that which
exists that which is conscious is there from the beginning before the
creation. It is one with out the second. That Brahman you are - tat
tvam asi swetaketo. So Brahman pervades the body - atra eva khila
sat - na nibhaalayate - My dear boy - there is no need to go in
search of Brahman. He is right inside you as the very essence of
your life, the essence of your existence and consciousness and is
imperceptible to the senses, mind and intellect. You are that. Thus
by this example, the teacher proves that Brahman is pratyaksha
agocharam or pramaaNaantara agamyam hence apuurvam brahman. Brahman
cannot be perceived or thought about. He cannot be known by any other
pramaaNa and can be known only through Vedanta pramaaNa. This is the
apuurvataa li~Ngam or factor that is established.

 Thus Vyasa established that 1. Brahman is the subject matter of
Vedanta, 2) it is unique subject matter and 3) Brahman is known
through Vedanta alone and not by any other pramaaNam. Conversely,
looking from Vedanta point, it is the unique pramaaNam for Brahman.
The converse is established because other than shabda pramaaNa the
other pramaaNa essentially rests on pratyaksha in one way or the
other. Since Brahman cannot be perceived, it can be known only by
shabda pramaaNa and Vedanta is the rightful shabda pramaaNa . Thus
Vedanta is unique pramaaNam and Brahman is unique prameyam . The
first part, Vedanta is unique pramaaNam is established by shaastra
yonitvaat and the second part Brahman is the unique prameyam is
established by tat tu samanvayaat , since samanvaya requires as a
part of the shhad li~Nga, uniqueness aspect. Thus the fourth suutra
' tat tu
   samanvayaat ' is the converse of the third suutra ' shaastra
yonitvaat '. Thus fourth suutra corroborates the third suutra.

The fourth li~Ngam is phalam . It is common understanding that
wherever phalam is mentioned that aspect should get primary
importance otherwise it is of secondary importance. It is like the
bottom line. In the Upanishads we find the statement ' brahmavit
aapnoti param ' if one knows Brahman one gets eternal liberation or
moksha. Hence the importance is given to brahmaj~naanam . If we
examine the sixth chapter of Chandogya, there is a statement 'tasya
taavad eva chiram yaavat na vimokshye atha sampatsya iti |' That is
brahmaj~naani will get jiivan mukti and at the time of death he will
get videha mukti . Thus both jiivan mukti phalam and videha mukti
phalam are mentioned from brahmaj~naanam. Hence Brahman is central
theme of Vedanta.

The fifth factor is arthavaadaH or glorification. In the Upanishad-s
the advaitic understanding is glorified by pointing that ' eka
vij~naanena sarva vij~naanam bhavati ', by knowing one, one knows
everything. brahma j~naani will become sarva j~naani. The word '
sarvaj~naani ' has to be understood. It does not mean he will start
knowing immediately quantum mechanics or C++ language etc.
sarvaj~naanam means sarva aatma j~naanam . He gets the knowledge of
the essence of everything, which is as good as knowing everything.
Thus by glorifying brahmaj~naani as sarvaj~naH , the sixth chapter
indirectly glorifies Brahman only. Glorification of brahmaj~naani is
the same as the glorification of Brahman since ' brahmavit brahma eva
bhavati ' knower of Brahman becomes Brahman. Not only brahma j~nanam
is glorified, the knowledge of all others are condemned in the sense
that they do not give moksha or freedom from ignorance. In
Kathopanishad (2-1-10) it was said " mR^ityoH saH mR^ityum aapnoti
yaH iha naanaa eva pashyati ", one who is in duality he will travel
from death to death. The one who dies without gaining brahma
j~naanam he is considered as unfortunate person, saH kR^ipaNaH .
Whereas one who dies after brahmaj~naanam he alone is braahmaNaH ( sa
eva braahmaNaH - Bri. Upa.), implying that all the aj~naanii -s are
called abrahmaNaH. In fact in all other knowledge, the more one
knows the more alpa j~naani one becomes. The more and more one
specializes in any objective sciences the more and more one
recognizes that what he knows is very very small in comparison to
what is left to know. He feels more and more ignorant in relation to
what he knows. He will never feel that there is nothing more to
learn. He will feel more and more inadequate and hence feels more
and more humble. On the other hand a brahma j~naani feels he has
learned what need to be learned and that there is nothing more to
learn. - yat j~naatvaa na param j~neyam'. He has accomplished what
need to be accomplished in life, kR^ita kR^ityaH. Thus
brahmaj~naanam is glorified and in contrast anyaj~naanam is
criticized - both come under arthavaadaH , glorification of
brahmaj~naanm. It includes brahmaj~naana stuti and anyaj~naana
nindaa .

Final factor is upapattiH - the upanishhat wants to show that it is
not illogical. It is not dogmatic or irrational or based on blind
belief. Brahma satyam and jagat is mithya giving a logical support.
The upanishad -s reveal Brahman is kaaraNam and the jagat or the
world is kaaryam. It logical shows kaaraNam alone is satyam because
it has independent existence. Whereas kaaryam has no independent
existence. Hence upanishhat makes an anumaana vaakyam - brahma
satyam kaaraNatvaat , jagat mithyaa kaaryatvaat . Upanishad gives an
example also for this in the same sixth chapter of Chandogya Up. -
vaachaarambhaNam vikaaro naamadheyam mR^ittikaa eva satyam , when
there is a pot, we know that clay alone is satyam and there is no
such substance called pot. Pot is mere name and form ( naama and
ruupa ). We need to note mR^ittika eva satyam - eva meaning alone -
the clay alone is satyam - by using the word eva or alone, the
upanishhat indirectly says the pot is mithyaa. If there are two
people and if I say pointing to one of them, this one alone is
intelligent, it implies that the other one is not intelligent or he
is dumb. mR^ittika eva satyam means the pot etc mR^itpinda -s are
only mR^ittikaa vikaaraaH , the products of clay. The products etc.
are vaachaarambhanam naamadheyam , they are only name-sake existent.
Thus Upanishads logically shows using several examples like this
(actually three examples are given) the kaaraNa satyatvam and kaarya
mithyaatvam . Through that upanishads reveal the brahma satyatvam and
jagat mithyaatvam - and that is upapattiH , the sixth factor which is
the logical factor.

Thus by taking the sixth chapter of Chandogya Upanishad as the model,
it is clearly established that all the shad li~Ngaani or six factors
reveal Brahman alone. Hence brahmaNi samanvyaH |. Hence the
conclusion is tat - that Brahman is shaastra prameyam . Brahman is
the central subject matter of shaastram - samanvayaat, because of
consistency or importance. Conversely the Vedanta is the pramaaNam
for Brahman, corroborating the third suutra.

With this we conclude the analysis of the word samanvayaat .

Next we take up the analysis of the word 'tu'.

********
Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

***Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.***


--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:47:00 -0500
Subject: Correction to Notes on BSB I-i-4-1B
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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Shree Sunderji pointed out a correction in the Kathopanishad sloka
quoted in paragraph 8.

Currently it says:
Kathopanishad (2-1-10) it was said " mR^ityoH saH mR^ityum aapnoti
yaH iha naanaa eva pashyati ", one who is in duality he will travel
from death to death

It should be naanaa iva instead of naanaa eva - naana iva implies as
though the plurality while naanaa eva implies plarality alone.
Obviously the advaitic connotation is more evident in the iva.

Please make the correction in case you are seriously studying it!

Hari OM!
Sadananda
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:40:09
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thank you Sir. I have been out of touch with all these for several years and
now I am getting into all this again. I remember now as I read your mail. I
would be delighted to read Narayaneeyam again. Please continue to post the
slokas.

Thanks again,
Ravi


>From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at P...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:48:31 +0800
>
>Ravishankar Venkatraman wrote:
>
> > It has been a while I read Narayaneeyam. I would certainly like to read
> > these slokas again.
> >
> > But I believe this sloka (agre pashyaami) is the first sloka (dashaka 1)
>and
> > not part of Dashaka 100. I could be wrong.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ravi
>
>namaste Ravi.
> The shloka starting with agre pashyaami ... is the first one in the 100
>th
>dashakam.
> The first shloka in the 1 st dashakam starts with :
> saandraananda-avabodhaatmakam anupamitam .....
>
> V.M.Sundaram
>
> >

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:23:46 -0330 (NST)
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Gummuluru Murthy <gmurthy at m...>


On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, S. V. Subrahmanian wrote:

> I have posed a lot of questions below. Please don't misunderstand that I am
> challenging what you are saying. Far from it.
>
> It is 70% doubt, 30% disagreement.
>

namaste. I am sure shri Nanda Chandran would respond to the questions
below. But, as this is an open forum, I am taking liberty to put in my
two cents worth of understanding below.


> Sri Nanda Chandran wrote:
>
> > Reality is beyond the reach of the intellect.
>
> Where is it cognized that it is beyond the intellect ? Intellect ?
>

It is first cognized by the intellect after its inability to comprehend
the Reality. Then it is cognized by the cit, which is more subtle than
the intellect (buddhi).

> > So the sharpest intellect will still not be able to reach it.
>
> Is "Aham brahmAsmi" a vritti or not ?
>

It is antahkaraNavr^itti. But, again, it is the vr^itti of the cit
which is the subtlest form of antahkaraNa.

> > Ofcourse, by such negation itself - neti, neti - one can rise above the
> > intellectual categories and then intuitively experience Reality.
>
> Can you define intuition ? Where does it happen ? In the intellect or outside
> of it ? If inside then it cannot rise above intellectual categories. If
> outside of it, then what/where is it ?
>
> Is intuition a means of knowledge ? What is the Sanskrit word for intuition ?
> Can you point to any verse in the Principal Upanishads that says that the
> reality is to be experienced through intuition ? (jnAna is immediate/direct
> knowledge, not intuition)
>
> Again can one experience without the intellect ?
>

Intuition is what is sometimes called sixth sense. It is that beyond
what can be grasped by the sense organs and the manas. The sanskrit word
I can think of for this is anubhUti.

kaTha upanishad has this beautiful verse, 1.2.23, I believe.

One can have anubhUti without intellect.


> > At best philosophy acts as a pointer - a pointer to the reality transcending
> > the unreal.
>
> Should we see it as a pointer or as an instrument of knowledge (pramANam) ?
> Eye is not a pointer to the vision. Ear is not a pointer to sound. Both are
> part of the perception of vision and sound respectively. Similarly the truths
> of Vedanta is part of the knowledge of reality - right/wrong ??
>

>From what I know: Reality (sat-cit-Ananda) is to be intuitively grasped.
We cannot reach anubhUti through vedAnta. VedAnta says whether our
anubhUti is that of Reality.


> In the above questions, I am not trying to say that knowledge happens in the
> intellect, but the role of intellect is indispensable. At no point in
> understanding can we throw away the intellect saying, we don't need it anymore.
> May be only in death.
>
> Regards.
> S. V. Subrahmanian.
>


Regards
Gummuluru

>From "Naresh Cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:16:33 -0500
Reply-To: n.cuntoor at l...
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th century
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Naresh Cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaskara,

I have a couple of follow-up questions..

 >Where is it cognized that it is beyond the intellect ? Intellect ?

 Not every cognition involves the intellect. For example - for the
 affirmation
 of your own existence - "I am" - do you need the intellect? It is
 an
 instinctive and intuitive feeling.

In the above, who does "I" refer to?
 Secondly, if the affirmation to "I am" holds with an intuitive feeling, does it mean that intellect offers a different answer? In which case, intuition would produce a different result compared to the intellect. Does that mean to say that intuition is "less important" or "more important" in some sense of the word?

Again, if the intellect offers a different explanation to "I am," then what we are saying is that we do not know what "I am" means, i.e, we are not sure of our existence (?). Which would go on to validate the postulate that reality is beyond the grasp of the intellect. But the whole issue of reality or non-reality is relative, isn't it? I mean, we know that we do "exist" in the way we understand the word, "exist." And to us, isn't what is present around us, reality? This leads us back to saying that what we are trying to say is that there is a fixed frame of reference to decide if something is real or not. Is that assumption valid?

Regards,
Naresh
--




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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:52:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam - Dashaka 100.
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:22:22 +0800, V.M.Sundaram
<venkataraman at P...> wrote:


>NarayaNiiyam is an abridged form
>of Bhaagavatam , which makes a delightful combination
>of saguNa and nirguNa brahma upaasanaa.
>In the very first shloka of NaaraayaNiiyam itself, the poet says
>
>*saandraananda-avabodhaatmakam ... brahma-tattvam ..
>gurupavanapure ... saakshaat bhaati *
>
>Brahman which is of the nature of concentrated (pure) Bliss
>and Consciousness , that very brahman shines in concrete form
>in the temple at Guru-pavana-pura .
>He has devoted some whole dashakams to expound the advaitic aspects.
>I may not be fit or capable of bringing out the flavour of crisply
>fried jalebis steeped in sweet syrup - I shall succeed to the extent
>the Lord wills it so.

For those who are thirsty or hungry or with throats dried up by
consuming the pungent, hot food of attachments to samsAra, the flow of
hari-kathA sweet syrup is most welcome, regardless of how well it is
prepared. As King Parixita aptly describes in the bhAgavata:

 naiShAtiduHsahA xunmAM tyaktodamapi bAdhate |
 pibantaM tvanmukhAMbhojachyutaM harikathAmR^itam.h ||

 (O shuka!) Neither this (otherwise) intolerable hunger
 nor even the fact that I have not even drunk any water
 troubles me as I am drinking the nectar of Hari-kathA
 dropping from the lotus of your

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 18:02:53 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: NaaraayaNiiyam
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


OM Namo Vasudevaaya

DASHAKAM 100
Shlokam 2

niilaabham kuncitaagram ghanam-amalataram sanyatam caaru-bhangyaa
ratnottamsa-abhiraamam valayitam-udayac-candrakaiH pinjcha-jaalaiH |
mandaara-srang-niviitam tava pR^thu-kabarii-bhaaram-aalokaye-'ham
snigdha-shveta-uurdhva-puNDraam-api ca su-lalitam
phaala-baalendu-viithiim ||


I see (aalokaye aham) your (tava) luxuriant locks of hair
(pR^thu-kabarii-bharam).
The hair is dark and shining (niila-aabham). The ends are curled
(kuncita-agram).
The thick (ghanam) and perfectly clean (amala-taram) hair has been
gathered
 into a bunch (sanyatam) with attractive undulations (caru-bhangya).
 This (artistically done tuft on the top of your head) is beautifully
decorated
 with the best of jewels (ratnottamsaabhiraamam). It is ringed
(valayitam) by
 a plume of peacock feathers (pinjcha-jaalaiH), with glistening
(udayat)
 "eyes " (candrakaiH).
 [This refers to the eye-like patterns naturally formed on peacock
feathers]
 A string of mandaara flowers is tied around the tuft
(mandaara-srag-niviitam).

 In the first shlokam the poet gave a long distance shot, as it were, of
what he saw.
 In this shloka he is zooming-in to provide a more detailed picture.
He starts
 with the hair-do (keshaadi paadaanta varNanam). Now he slowly lowers
his
 gaze and proceeds to describe the forehead :

He adds, I also notice (api ca aalokaye) the forehead (phaala) which is

very handsome (sulalitaam) and resembles the crescent moon of the fifth
day
of the waxing fortnight (baala-indu-viithiim).
On the forehead is a handsome (snigdha) white (shveta) line of sandal
paste
which is drawn upwards (uurdhva-puNDram).

 xxxxx

This is the second shlokam in the 100th dashakam of Sriman
NaraayaNiiyam.
I shall (d.v.) present the third shlokam in my next posting.
I am generally following the interpretation given in the book by
Shri S.N.Sastri, published by the Central Chinmaya Misson Trust, Bombay.

Sarve bhadraaNi

>From "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda at h...>
Subject: Re: Reality
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:29:09
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Kuntimaddi Sadananda" <k_sadananda at h...>


Gummuluru Murhty gaaru (G.M) wrote:
namaste.

If I can continue on this thread-topic for a bit more:
Shri Sadananda garu argued last week that the dream and
the wake-up states are exactly identical. While I see that
so from the paramArtha perspective (there, it is not only
the dream and wake-up states, but the deep sleep state is
also identical; there are no states), I have difficulty
accepting it even from advaitic intellectual (vyavahArika)
perspective.

Sada: Murthy gaaru – To clarify my statement again – 1) I said is there is
an exact similarity not that they are exactly identical, since as I
mentioned the degree of the intellect-involvement varies. It is a question
degree and not of type. 2) In the paaramaarthika level – there is no
identity either – they are only apparent while the turiiya state is real –
in the appearances there are differences (that is why they are appearances –
masthaani sarva bhuutaani -) but theses differences are understood as
appearances only and not real.

GM:
In the normal day-to-day experience, we consider
only the wake-up state to be real and the other two states
to be simply appendages to the wake-up state. So, in the
normal day-to-day life, the dream and the deep-sleep states
are very much ignored.(Sada: remember this is waker’s notion)

GM: From advaitic intellectual perspective

(sada: I would not call it adviatic intellectual perspective – it is
actually not intellectual – that cannot be deduced on the basis of simply
anamaana pramaaNa – it is deduced from shabda pramaaNa – shaastra yonitvaat-
or Vedanta pramaaNa although it is not illogical and in that sense it is
known through intellect)

GM:(from the vyavahArika), the dream and the deep-sleep states
are looked at as importantly as the wake-up state because
that helps us to understand what we are.

Sada: Murthy gaaru – human experience involves all the three states –
waking, dream and deep sleep – analysis of one state as most of the western
philosophies do will only give a partial knowledge. Any valid scientific
investigation must include a total system and any conclusions drawn based on
partial data will be incomplete and questionable at best. The analysis must
include – all the three states of experiences as well as all the three
states of experiencer and experiencing– to have a complete system. – This is
to help to understand the validity of any experience itself –Hence my
appreciation of how scientific our sages were.

GM: Even in this
advaitic intellectual (vyavahArika) perspective, the dream
and the wake-up states are not identical, as I see. They
are as important as the other, but not identical.
I concede that I am making this statement and analysis from
the wake-up state only, with no knowledge of what I would
do from the Dream State.

Sada: I want to emphasize the similarity instead of identity – samasaraH
swapna tulyohi – is Shankara’s statement – tulyam – is the word – it is like
a dream state.

G.M. The Ishwara (the creator) for the dream-world is the mind
(shri Sadananda garu calls it the wake-up mind: why not
call it the dreaming-mind?).

Sada: dreaming mind is the waker’s mind – Scientifically it is the
suppressions and oppressions (which are like vaasana-s) of the waker’s mind
that vomits out- Remember there are several tiny jiiva-s in the dream too
and each jiiva of the dream has his/her own mind and intellect –these are
bhootaani – mayatatamidam sarvam jagat avyakta muurthinaa – mastaani sarva
bhuutaani – I pervade this entire dream world in an unmanifested form for
all beings – both chara and achara – are in me – but I am not in them –
applies exactly – Hence to separate the tiny dream subjects bodies, minds
and intellects – and since it is the waker’s mind that is going to dream –
we call it waker’s mind. It is the Iswara of the dream since it pervades the
entire dream world – janmaadyasya yataH is valid suutra for this creator,
sustainer and dissolver.

GM: Taking the wake-up state as
also a dream, the dreamer for that dream is 'Ishwara'.
If we see it that way, we can, to some extent, justify
the *identity* of the dream and the wake-up states.
But, still, difficulties arise. For example:

Sada: True as along as identity is replaced by similarity.

GM:
A. Let us say that X dreams that X is realized. Although
he/she might have dreamt that he/she is realized, in the
Dream State, that does not translate into the wake-up state.
In the wake-up state, X is still an aj~nAni. That is,
what happened in the Dream State cannot be transferred
to the wake-up state. This can also be seen from the
various standard examples that dream thirst can be
quenched with dream water only; also the wake-up
dinner is not going to solve the dream hunger. So,
the things cannot be transferred from one state to
the other.

Sada: Murthy gaaru –I am glad you are raising the issue since it helps to
clarify again. We never talk about transferring things from one state to the
other – the order or the degree of realities are as explained in the
shaastra-s are different. From what point the comparisons are made is to be
understood. We cannot transfer exactly the things from one state to the
other. What are transferred are only the subtler impressions in sub-mind or
vaasana state. Since the dream itself is due to suppressions and
oppressions of the waking state – the dream state experiences will transfer
back to waking state as ‘those-vaasana-cleaned up’ waker’s mind – or mind
which is free from those vaasana-s or those particular suppressions and
oppressions. Thus Lord as provided dream as the cleansing house for the
waker’s mind. As I mentioned in the dream state the intellect is not at its
full potential – ‘will to act’ is not that intense for the new vaasana-s to
be formed strongly. Hence normally no new vaasana-s are formed that can get
deposited – hence it is not a karmaloka but bhoga loka – just as ksheene
punye martyulokam vishanti – one is pushed back once the vaasana-s are
exhausted. – see my response to Shree sunder’s question regarding other
loka-s. So when X dreams and in that he dreams that he as a tiny x who has
realized - He can only realize that he is the Brahman that is beyond the
dream world of plurality. When he wake up – small x becoming waker X – he is
now back to normal jiiva X in the waking state with all his waker ignorance.
A true waker – jiivanmukta is different – He has the full intellect – with
full discriminative power and with that he has realized that he is the nitya
that eternal that pervades in all the three states – the dreamer small x
does not have that full intellectual discriminative power as I already
mentioned – hence his vision of reality is only narrow. Hence rarely a
jiiva realizes in the dream state. He may dream as a realized master just
some vedantins day dream that they are realized! – But just because one
day-dreams of realization – that does not manifest. Realization involves
intensive – vichaara at the intellect level – requires suukshama buddhi –
Shree Anand Hudli has been rightly stressing this aspect in his postings –
It is with this buddhi one goes beyond the buddhi – like pole Walt. – hence
great emphasis on shravana, manana and nidhidhyaasana – since fundamental
ignorance that leads to adhyaasa has to be eliminated.

Again if one has the full potential of the intellect even in dream – the
question will be can he/she really dream at all- he may be have trouble
sleeping! – the very dream state requires folding up of large part of one’s
intellect.

Similarly if one develops sharp viveka to discriminate nitya and anitya – he
will also be any more in this waking state – his intellect takes him (as
though) to that turiiya state. – Hence saadhana is only to develop this
discriminative intellect through vichaara or inquiry into the nature of
reality.

I see self-consistency in
   all these. Hence my admiration for the great
scientific minded sages.

GM:
B Let us say X is realized in the wake-up state. Such a
person will not have dreams. [The statement "such a person
will not have dreams (1)" is not exactly correct. Firstly,
statement (1) is from a third person perspective.

Sada: Murthy gaaru – one has to be carefully. Third person can never know if
someone is dreaming or not – perhaps through electrodes and alpha waves or
eye-movements one can infer that one is dreaming. That is the third person
inference.
 Let us analyze the jiivanmukta state clearly. Just as in the waking state
the plurality exists for jiivan mukta but only the difference he knows that
the plurality is not reality but only appearance – hence it is called aatma
kriiDa – yo maam pasyati sarvatra and sarvancha mayi pasyati – who sees me
everywhere and everything in me – sarva bhuutastu maatmaanam sarva bhuutani
cha aaatmani – I am in all beings and all being in me – both imply that
beings and other things are there but they are only apparent – I pervade
everything – hence the world of plurality is there yet he understands that
he pervades that plurality without getting affected – na cha aham teshu
avasthitaH. Exactly the same analogy in the dream – the dream plurality goes
on even in jiivanmukta when his mind dreams – but that is the play of the
mind in His presence. He lends his support to the dream just as he lends
his support to the waking world. He is neither dreamer nor waker not
deep-sleeper – yet waking, dream and deep sleep states go on in his presence
since that belongs to prakR^iti – mayaa adhyakshena prak^itiH suuyate sa
charaacharam. From jiivanmukta point there is no third person either.
Whether in the waking state or in the dream state – this I want to make sure
is clear to everyone. Hence when we discuss about realized person – he has
realized he alone is – ekameva advitiiyam. If you examine your question
again – I feel you are jumping from the two references. From the reference
of the third person, he has is not realized and it is the same plurality he
experiences in the waking and dream world and he identifies that the
plurality is real.

GM:
>From the
first person perspective, i.e., from the realized's
perspective, there is no personality there and for that
realized state, the dream-, the wake-up, and the deep-sleep
states are all the same.

Sada: No there are not the same – He as an illuminator is the same – but the
projected plurality in which the levels of upaadiis -body, mind and
intellect are different – He says – waking world is going on – dream world
is going on and deep-sleep world is going on – I am none of these worlds
–they are in me but I am not in them – The difference in the world still
exists and similarities also exists – yet he is beyond the differences and
similarities – He is turiiya -

GM: Hence, statement (1) can only be
made by a third person). We have to look at it from third
person and first person perspectives. From the third person
perspective, we say that X is realized, and X's realization
extends into his/her dream and deep-sleep states (if X has
those states).

Sada: The third person’s knowledge is only hear-say or from Vedanta pramaaNa
or his faith or belief that the other person is realized or not realized
etc. Which is completely different from the self-knowledge of the
jiivanmukta.

G.M. From first person perspective (X's perspective),
there are no dream-state, no wake-up state, no deep-sleep
state. All states are identical.

Sada: I think I have explained above – first they are not identical – they
are similar but with different degrees of pluralities– second the jiivan
mukta sees the waking, dream and deep sleep states – but has no more notion
that these states are real – As long as the upaadhiis or equipments body,
mind and intellect exist – the plurality exists but he does not have
misunderstanding that the plurality is reality – He lends his support as
adhishhTaana or sarvavyaapaka or substratum for all the states – yatova
imaani bhuutani etc is valid for jivanmukta - here to each world of
plurality – and if I may add – this also includes other worlds or loka-s as
well – bhuvaH, suvaH etc to include Sunder’s question.

G.M:
That is, the realization
transcends the states.
[Scenarios A and B above are presented with the assumption that
it is the same entity in the wake-up state and also dreaming.

Sada: From the jiivanmukta state – there is no question entities – he is
beyond entities – he is the consciousness that is conscious of the waking
world, dream world and deep sleep world – hence only for convenience we call
it is turiiya. It is not turiiya either – it is the substratum for all the
three states yet beyond all the three states – since states keep changing
but not the consciousness. A jiivanmukta is the one who identifies or
realizes that he is that consciousness that pervades all the three states.
States can exist as aatma kriiDa or states can be folded as aatma rati – but
folding unfolding is part of prakR^iti to which he lends his support as
addhyaksha.

G.M: Argument can be made that jIvA is not the same from one
moment to the next, in which case there is no continuity
for scenarios A and B.]

Sada: Murthy gaaru – I see some problem in this statement – jiiva notion is
not that temporary – there are ‘this thoughts’ idam vR^itti and “I thought’
or aham vR^itti – idam vR^itti has locus of idam which is changing and
impermanent – aham vR^ti has its locus on Brahman – hence ‘I am’ – the real
part of jiiva (see my adhyaasa notes in terms of real part and unreal part
in partial ignorance) – realization is full establishment of I am samsaarii
to I am Brahman – we already know two thirds – sat and chit – only the third
part Amanda has to be known. Hence there is no complete changing of jiiva –
samsaara part in which I am – father mother wife, husband etc roles keep
changing – but I am part remaining which is locused on Brahman – does not
change. Hence jiiva goes through transmigration – life after life – survives
the death of a physical body – whole of saankhya yoga rests on this.

G.M:
Scenarios A and B show that even in advaitic intellectual
(vyavahArika) perspective, wake-up and dream states do not
have the same level of reality and are not exactly identical.
>From a realized's perspective of course, all states (dream,
wake-up and deep-sleep) are identical.

Sada: I think identity and similarity are not identical! I have already
discussed the difference as well as the similarities in the two states.
These exists whether one has realized or not Since these belong to prak^iti
– the differences again is from unrealized jiiva he thinks one is real
(like waking state) and the other is unreal (dream state) – From jiivanmukta
all are apparently real in their respective reference states. I am alone is
real and none of the states, their world or their experiences are not
absolutely real. Yet they all exist in me but I do not exist in them. I can
fold it or unfold it – it is my glory!

G.M. I am trying to get a grip on the three states at various levels
of understanding. I am using in my studies GauDapAda kArika,
MAnDUkya u. and bhAShyA-s on both by shri Shankara, and also

Sada: Murthy gaaru I have presented what I understand as self-consistency in
all these teachings. I see every
Thing self-consistent and yet to see any inconsistencies in the logic. But
keep pushing until it is clear.

G.M.
Talks with RamaNa MaharShi. Is there any other good material
for this subject? At the moment, basically, I am thinking out
loud and I hope the List does not find it too intrusive.

My Best Wishes - Hari Om!
Sadananda


Regards
Gummuluru Murthy
------------------------------------------------------------------












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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 10:55:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Shriiman NaaraayaNiiyam -background
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:02:26 +0800, V.M.Sundaram
<venkataraman at P...> wrote:

>Ashish Chandra wrote:
>
> I started with the 100th dashakam because this dashakam is
considered to
>be
> very effective for meditation yielding mental peace. I posted the first
shlokam
>
> of this dashakam yesterday. With the kind words of encouragement given by
> many scholars on this list, I am emboldened to continue with the rest of
the
>100th dashakam.

For those interested, there is also an excellent meditation technique
mentioned in the 3rd skandha, 28th adhyAya of the bhAgavatam. This forms
part of the Kapila's description of the sAMkhya and yoga systems in the
bhAgavata.

I have personally found this meditation technique on the form of
nArAyaNa holding the shankha-chakra-gadA-padma, combined as it is
with prANAyAma (breath control exercises), to be a unique and
joyful experience. With practice, the "joyful" aspect becomes easier
and easier to achieve, especially when one learns how to concentrate
on the brilliant, glittering lotus feet of the Lord. One can feel the
mind coming to rest as it were on that image and hold absolutely still.
(Of course, it is possible to meditate on your own favorite deity also.)
However, I would caution that prANAyAma should be learnt from a Yoga
teacher, rather than be attempted on one's own. Doing breath control
the wrong way could lead to heart

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Purva Mimamsa: Webpage announcement
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 05:13:09 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I have created a web page on an ancient, pre-Shabarasvamin Mimamsaka namely
Bhavadasa. Please let me have any suggestions and corrections. Here is the
URL

http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/bhavadasa.html

Sincerely,

Vishal

Homepage- http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/homepage.html

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:59:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Fw: Smarta Tradition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


I am forwarding this to advaita-L. I request to join advaita-L, you can
discuss your work in detail there.

http://www.advaita-vedata.org/
http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l.html

--- rvaidyan at w... wrote:
>
> Dear Ravi :
>
> I read a note about Smarta tradition of Pancayatana Puja , written
> by you
> in the Advaita Vedanta thread. Could you kindly indicate where I can
> find
> more material on Smarta tradition and the Pancayatana puja ? I am
> doing a
> study on SMartas as a part of my M.A. Thesis at University of
> Pennsylvania.
> I would be very grateful if you could help me in this matter as what
> I am
> able to get from the library is quite limited.
>
>
> Warm Regards
>
> Rakesh
>
>


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:27:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th century
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Nanda Chandranji,

And Subramanyam, I'm surprised that you didn't raise any further questions! Is
everything clear then?

Response:

Sorry for not getting back to you. My wedding preparations are in full swing
and I have not been able to remain focussed on the question. I have read your
further posting and Sri G. Murthi-ji's too. Before I ask further questions I
am going to do 2 things tonight:

1. Clarify the definition of buddhi. You have given a definition of your own.
 I would like to check out what Shankara says in VivekachUDamaNi. He has a
separate section for each anthakaraNa. I am going to use Swami ChinmayAnanda's
translation.

2. Check out Katha Upanishad 1.2.23 which Sri Murthi-ji mentioned. I am
really curious how I missed out on some mention of intuition. If I cannot
understand from the Bhashyam directly I will use Swami Dayananda Saravati's
explanation.

Then,

3. Combine your postings are write a reponse.

Please give me a day or two. By the way I should thank you for taking interest
in trying to explain. Frankly I disagree with some of what you have said, but
I am quite appreciative of your attitude. And my heartfelf thanks to Sri
Murthi-ji too.

I disagree with you in some, because I disagree with my own past understanding
equally, which is what you are elucidating. When I am questioning you, I am
really questioning my past. I have read sufficiently from various teachers
about "intuition dawning and experiencing Brahman" etc. I won't say I totally
disagree, but in such view points, enthusiasts of mystical side are probably
complicating/misunderstanding what can be seen as a fact, as clearly as
"hastAmalaka" which Vedanta promises (ofcourse with sufficient effort and
Guru's Grace).

My background itself is more rooted on the mystical side of philosophy as might
have been evident from my very early postings. But there is a tendency among
students of mysticists to wax eloquent on something as esoteric, just because
it is elusive to rational thinking.

Not that I have switched camps, or that it is necessary, but certainly after
coming to Vedanta, I have learnt to drop those that I had accepted purely
because they seemed very exotic.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:28:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 11 names of Shiva Bhagawan - Name 9: Kratudhvamsin
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


[I'm so sorry for not posting the remainder of the names, no sooner had I
recovered and gone back to work, I received the news there were going to
be layoffs and I'd better resign and start looking for a new job. Which
kept me rather tired and completely ruined my enjoyment of Shivaratri :(
But I'm back now.]

Kratudhvamsin - Destroyer of the Sacrifice

Previously I mentioned a yagna where Shiva Bhagawan is asked to go away.
The story concerning this name illustrates the consequences of not
inviting inviting Him at the proper time.

The Devas and Asuras are eternally at war. I don't normally use the words
"Gods" and "Demons" because this can cause people to misinterpret the
point of the pauranika stories. The Devas are mostly good though
sometimes like Indra in the episode of the sacrificial horse they do the
wrong things. The Asuras are mostly evil though some (Bali and Prahlada
come to mind) are good. But they have a lot in common. For one thing
they are brothers. Their father is the Maharshi Kashyapa. Their mothers
are his two wives. Aditi is the mother of the Devas who are for that
reason also called Adityas. Diti is the mother of the Asuras who
accordingly also called Daityas. Then why do we worship one set and not
the other? The names of the mothers hold a clue. Aditi means infinity.
The Devas may sometimes have their personal agendas but even when pursuing
that, they do so in ways which are beneficial in the long run. It should
be noted that Indras actions did manage to bring about the descent of the
Ganga which has been a plus for mankind. Diti is the opposite of
infinity. The Daityas are short-sighted. They may engage in dharmic acts
but only as means to some strategic end in their quest for power, totally
overlooking the real purpose of Dharma.

In one such war betwen the Devas and Daityas, the Asura side was led by
Taraka. (His three sons were mentioned in the story of Tripurari) He also
did tapa for the purpose of acquiring immortality and when he too was
denied, he too tried to get de facto immortality with a trick. He asked
that his death only come about through the son of Shiva Bhagawan. As
Shiva Bhagawan had no wife let alone children, this seemed like a pretty
unlikely ccurrence. In the end Shiva Bhagawan did marry and His son
Skanda Bhagawan led the army of the Devas to victory. I won't recount
that whole story here, it is told in many Puranas and Kalidasa has written
a great poem called Kumarasambhava on the subject.

The wife of Shiva Bhagawan was Sati the daughter of Daksha Prajapati. (In
that avatara. In truth Shivaa is eternally united with Her husband.)
After his mind-born children like Narada and the Sanatakumars had refused
to create the worlds, Brahmaji and His wife had another set of children
through more normal means. These are the prajapatis like Daksha, Kardama,
Kashyapa etc. They obeyed their fathers wish to perform creation. (Which
is why Brahmaji is known as Pitamaha or "Grandfather".) Daksha was proud
of his position and achievements and did not think much of his wild,
unkempt, and not at all "respectable" son-in-law. Once he decided to
perform a great yajna at Prayaga to which all the Devas were invited --
with one notable exception. The word Bhagawan means one who is entitle
to a share (of the sacrifice.) So this was quite a snub. By his action
Daksha was denying the divinity of Mahadeva. Not that He cared. For Him,
the actions of even such "great" beings are on the same level as we would
consider the barking of dogs. But Sati took it more personally and plus
She was eager to visit her parents again.

Arriving at the yajna escorted by Nandi and the hosts (ganas) of bhutas,
She was shocked to find indifference and downright mockery instead of a
warm welcome. In anger, she rebuked Her arrogant father and entered the
sacrificial fire. The ganas attempted to punish the wicked man but were
defeated by his power. When they got back to Kailasa and mournfully
recounted what had happened, Shiva Bhagawan, normally so calm blazed forth
in anger and tore out two locks of his hair. One became Virabhadra, and
the other Bhadrakali, two fearsome and powerful beings who set forth with
the intent of teaching Daksha a lesson. Even the most powerful amongst
the Devas and Rshis were unable to block their advance. They overturned
and defiled the yajna and cut off Dakshas head.

Shiva Bhagawan later came to the scene and when he beheld the corpse of
His beloved he hoisted it onto His shoulder and began to dance. Shiva
Bhagawan is Nataraja -- the Lord of dance and when he performs his Tandava
dance it signals the end of the world. Fearing this outcome, Vishnu
Bhagawan took his Sudarshana Chakra and cut up the corpse of Sati into 18
pieces which were scattered all over Bharata. These are the 18 Shakti
pithas, the greatest places for the worship of Mataji. Longtime list
members will remember C. Nageshwar Rao. He did a yatra of these 18
pithas. In each of them Shiva resides along with Shakti.

After his destructive energy was distributed in this way, Shiva Bhagawan
became calm again. The Devas and Rshis begged Him, the protector of the
Vedas to restore the yajna and allow it to be completed. He relented and
returned Daksha to life, replacing his severed head with the head of the
sacrificial goat. Then he returned to Kailas to continue His solitary
tapa. (Later Sati, was reborn as Parvati the daughter of Himalaya.)

Daksha is the archetype of those who believe in karma for its own sake.
Contrary to popular misconceptions, Advaita Vedanta is not against karma
and the rituals enjoined in the shastras. For the grhastha, they are
mandatory, no ifs ands or buts. However it does say they must be done not
for their own sake or for material gain or prestige but out of a sense of
duty as an offering to Bhagawan. Failing to recognize this was Dakshas
sin. His head was replaced by the head of the sacrificial animal. The
yajna cannot just be an external process you sit down for then walk away
from. It must be internalized. You must "be" the yajna. So from that
standpoint, Shiva Bhagawan did not "destroy" the yajna but on the contrary
He was the one who ensured it was properly carried out.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:36:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Penance of Shiva (fwd)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: RAMASWAMY BALU <jsrswamy at h...>
Subject: Penance of Shiva

Aiming what Shiva himself 'the grantor of all wishes and boons' is doing
PENANCE?

penance is the wrong word to describe it. Shiva Bhagawan is doing tapa
which doesn't have a precise english equivalent. Perhaps austerity?

As to why He is doing it, the Shivamahimnastotram describes Him as
Svatmarama -- one who takes pleasure in His own atma. For Him there is
nothing other than Himself. This is the true tapa. To do it for the sake
of worldly objectives is vastly inferior.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:17:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


NAMASKAR.

Thanks for the welcome message.
I was impressed by the transliteration of NARAYANEEYAM slokam and hence
requested my daughter to include me in your postings.It is a coincidence
that I am currently listning to cassettes on
SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM where there is line to line quotation of Shrimad
Narayaneeyam.
This is a series of lectures in Tamil by Brahmasri Sengalipuram Anantharama
Deekshithar.
I may not have much to contribute to your group but am certainly interested
in learning all that you have to offer.

I am a 53 year old medical doctor atlast finding time to be with myself.
I enjoy listning to Bhajan-Nama sangeerthanam especially His holiness shri
HaridasGiri swamigal.I hail from a orthodox Smartha family.
My grand father Late Brahmasri Kuthur Ramanatha Sastrigal was a great
scholar and exponent of Advaita Siddhantham and eastablished the Sankara
Madam in MYLAPORE,Madras.
I am indeed looking forward to your mails especially NARAYANEEYAM at the
earliest.

Close with sadar pranams to all

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:15:02 -0500
Subject: Are we sages? No!
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


The recent snow storm in the Northeast reminded me of one of
Bhartrihari's verses in the vairAgya shataka as did another
snowstorm several years ago when I was a student. Like most of the
new students from India, I had not seen snow in my life. During
my first year as student in the US, I lived through a lot of snowfall.
Near the end of winter, there was a monster of a snowstorm which
dumped at least 2 feet of snow. All life virtually came to a standstill
for about 48 hours. I had to undergo some hardship because of this
weather-related problem. Foolishly, I thought that I had endured
the harsh winter just like the sages in the Himalayas. It was then
that I was reminded of Bhartrihari's verse and I quickly came to my
senses. Even though the endurance of harsh weather was about the
same for the muni and me, at least for that short period, the purpose
of enduring the hardship was different. The muni endures harsh weather
because he has a higher ideal in mind. I endured harsh weather because
I had no choice!!! See the difference?

Now let us read the verse:

xAntaM na xamayA gR^ihochitasukhaM tyaktaM na saMtoShataH
soDhA duHsahashItavAtapavanakleshA na taptaM tapaH |
dhyAtaM vittamaharnishaM niyamitaprANairna shaMbhoH padaM
tattatkarma kR^itaM yadeva munibhistaistaiH phalairvaMchitAH ||

We have forgiven (insults from others) but not because of (the
virtue of) forgiveness. We have given up domestic/conjugal happiness
but not with joy. We have endured unbearable distress due to cold,
winds (hurricanes, tornados, etc.) but not for doing penance.
With controlled life, we have concentrated our minds day and night
on (making/saving/investing) money, but not on the feet of shaMbhu.
Whatever actions are done by munis (sages), we have done them but
we did not get the same results! (Why? Because of the difference in
intention. Our intentions were not good.)

Bhartrihari says "xAntaM na xamayA." We often forgive others for doing us
some injustice and falsely claim to take the "higher moral ground." But the
real reason, it turns out, is because we are so incapable or cowardly to
react to the injustice!

Next, he says gR^ihochitaM sukhaM tyaktaM na saMtoShataH. One can find
many, many examples here. A typical case. Boy gets some education in
India. He comes to the US, gets green card, and goes back to India to
get married. His wife waits for her green card in India while he is
back in the US. He and she give up enjoying their married life until
she gets the green card. But are they to be considered as doing some
kind of tapasyA. No! They are only doing it because they are forced
into the situation by dreams of a better life in a foreign land.
Or, consider couples where the husband and wife live a great distance
apart from each other because they pursue careers in different places.
They too give up the "gR^ihochita-sukha" but are they doing some kind
of penance? Not by any means. Moreover, a muni who abandons life as a
householder, does so with joy. Not so, these couples. They feel the
pangs of separation and yearn to be in each other's company. They
run up huge long distance phone bills (at least they used to until
the advent of the 10-10-220 and other cheap long distance plans :-)).

Next, he mentions the harsh weather related distress that is routinely
endured by many people. This is not the tapasyA of the muni's.

Further, he talks about the utmost care that many people take to see
that they earn money, and then save or invest it wisely. They do a
lot of careful research in identifying the companies they should
seek a job in or invest in. Even for things such as buying a house
or a car, people do a lot of research. People do a lot of careful
research to find the "best bargains" on everything they buy. Yet
others resort to cutting their household budgets, or cutting their
food and other living expenses. They control their appetite just to
save money. People who work in top positions in companies work
extremely hard (often 60 hours or more per week) trying to gain
that "competitive edge" or "market share" for their company.
But they cannot find time to do a little research on or even
think of "shaMbhu." Is this not strange? Sages, such as MadhusUdana
for example, study the shAstras hard in order to teach their own
doctrines to others and thereby rescue others from the fangs of saMsAra.
Others study hard and do research only with the purpose of filling their
own belly.

In this way, worldly minded people apparently practise some of the same
things that a muni does, such as xamA, tyAga, tapas, and dhyAna. But
such people do not obtain the same results. Why? Because the intention
is different!

A similar lesson is also taught in the rAmAyaNa. When HanumAn visits
lankA in search of sItA, he looks for Her in the palace of rAvaNa, among
many sleeping women. At this point a doubt is raised regarding the
propriety of hanumAn's looking at all these women, especially since
many of them are not appropriately dressed. How could HanumAn, a
brahmachArin, look at such women and still claim to be pure? The
answer that is given is that it is the intention and attitude that
matter, not the mere act of looking at women. HanumAn was not looking
at the women with an erotic intention. He was only searching for sItA.

As it is with vulgar actions such as staring at sleeping women, so it is
with saintly actions such as xamA, tapas, etc. Just because an action
appears to be saintly, it does not mean it is so. It is the intention
of the doer that matters. Consequently, the merit/sin of the action is
dependent on the intention and frame of mind in which it is performed.
Many people go to temples and worship God. But so many of them are
unable to concentrate on God and His worship even in His temple. They
are constantly thinking of how much money they made or lost or some
other selfish end. Consequently, their worship has little

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:43:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Brain in Advaita?
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, nanda chandran wrote:

>
> Question to the scholars : is the physical organ - brain - mentioned
> explicitly in Vedantic texts?
>

I haven't been able to find a reference. I have read that ayurvedic texts
are aware that the brain is responsible for mental conditions.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:44:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Gurus and the place of intellect
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


[In the light of the recent discussions on these subjects, I thought I'd
share something interesting I read. It is an excerpt of a discourse by
H.H. Jagadguru Swami Bharati Tirth of Srngeri on the occasion of the
coronation of the new head of the Chitrapur math. This math belongs to
the Smarta tradition and there is a lot of interesting stuff on their site
(http://www.chitrapurmath.org/) The full text of the discourse is at
http://www.chitrapurmath.org/iphart_4.htm/)]

...Who is a Guru? Adi Shankara raises this query and proceeds to answer
that He is one who is "adhigata tatvah shishya hitaya uchyatah satatam".
Guru should be one who has realised the Truth, adhigata attvah. Well, this
alone is not enough. There are some who are reservoirs of knowledge, but
wouldn't part with that treasure even to deserving pupils. These teachers
parry away the importunate pupils with three magic phases: go on reading
(uchyatam), time is up (samayo atitah) and everything will become clear as
you go on reading. (spashtam agre bhavishyati). So, beloved Adi Shankara
adds the adjective: "One who gives utterance to the Truth always for the
benefit of the disciples". Shankara Himself is hailed not only as a
repository (Alayam) of the Vedas, Shastras and Puranas, but also
Karunalayam (the abode of mercy and tender solicitude for the disciples).
So, the preceptor must know the Truth at first hand, be established in it
and, then, moved by compassion for disciples, proceed to teach what He has
realised.

An ideal Guru never fights shy of the questions posed by a deserving
disciple. Nay, he welcomes such questions and goes out of the way to coax
the disciple to question Him. Blind acceptance is never his credo. Says
Gita "tat viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena savayaa, upadekshyanti
tatvadarshinah". Surrender to the Guru, offer salutations to Him, question
Him in all manner possible, serve Him --this is the art of Guruseva. This
is the technique of acquiring knowledge from the Guru.

When you are in doubt, turn to the Guru. When you do not know the way out
of a crisis, turn to the Guru. Says the Upanishad (Taittiriya): "Now, if
there should arise any doubt regarding your acts or any uncertainty in
respect of your conducting life, you should follow the footsteps of those
Knowers of Brahman, who are wise, self-controlled, kind-hearted, devoted
to Dharma and unattached. Do as they do. (yatha to varteran, tatha tatra
vartethah). This is the seminal service rendered by the Guru. He is an
ideal and an exemplar unto others.

Questioning is good, but argumentativeness is not. Kutarka, vain argument,
is taboo. Logic in itself is not praiseworthy. Logic in the service of
Truth enjoined by the scriptures is prescribed by the sages, Adi Shankara
teaches us to abstain from perverse logic (dustarkaat suviramyatam). He
tells us to cultivate logic that is in tune with the teachings of Shruti,
the Vedic lore (shrutimatah tarko anusandheeyatam). Has not the Lord
cautioned in Gita: "The inveterate doubter comes to grief (samsahayatma
vinashyati)?...

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:46:26 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> I am currently listning to cassettes on
> SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM where there is line to line quotation of Shrimad
> Narayaneeyam.
> This is a series of lectures in Tamil by Brahmasri Sengalipuram Anantharama
> Deekshithar.

Several list members have written on the subject of the Bhagavata but have
been unable to continue for various reasons. Perhaps you can take up this
topic as time permits?

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:35:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Are we sages? No!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


--- ShrI Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...> wrote:
> Many people go to temples and worship God. But so many of
> them are
> unable to concentrate on God and His worship even in His
> temple. They
> are constantly thinking of how much money they made or
> lost or some
> other selfish end. Consequently, their worship has little
> significance.

Thank you ShrI Anand-ji for this wonderful post.
Especially your statements above are very poignant indeed.
I have had a long-standing doubt regarding this.

1. Can we ask God ( in whatever way, shape or form ) for
 **material** wealth like house, cars etc.?
2. Can we seek His/Her Grace to remove our health problems,
 spirital ignorance and other non-material disturbances?
3. Can we pray for moksha?

I am quite confused over these issues.
In 1), from what little I know of our scriptures, they seem
to be saying that this is a definite NO-NO for an aspirant.
The first verse of Isha Upandishad comes to my mind.
It clearly states that we should not seek "dhanam". No?
But, artha and kama are two of the four goals of life.
Also, there are various vedic rituals that are meant to
bestow very specific material benefits to the performer.
How do our acharyas resolve this?

Regarding 2), it seems OK to do this as God is a support
for
those in distress. But, this has the problem of conditional
faith. Should we think of God as the "miracle" worker who
would cure us of our disease and disabilities? This seems
quite contrary to the view of God in our tradition.
What do our scriptures say about this?

For 3), it seems to be in conflict with advaita, as bhakti
in advaita merely leads to chitta-shuddhi and not moksha.
Given that, would it be appropriate in advaita-bhAva to
seek moksha from God?

-Vivek.

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:18:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Advaita in 20th Century
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri Nanda Chandranji & Sri G. Murthi-ji,

The time I had asked for, for replying to you is expiring. I am really tight
pressed for time as I am having to take a vacation for my marriage in a few
days from now. I need to complete many obligations professional and otherwise
before I leave. (Two vacations in 2 months is unheard of in Wall Street, one
can end up on the streets for doing so!!)

I don't want to spout questions without substantiating with appropriate
references (whereever I intended to contradict you). If such a topic is still
active when I come back I will participate.

I will in short try to summarize what I wanted to say:

1. I felt that your explanation of "experiencing reality through intuition"
somehow gave an idea that it was running against the fundamental premise of
Vedanta namely "accomplishing the already accomplished".

2. The role of the intellect in the knowledge of self is indispensable. Here
when I refer to buddhi, I mean a buddhi that has been instructed by a Guru.

3. Any knowledge/feeling of "I am" requires an anthakaraNa whatever name we
may use buddhi/cit etc.

This I felt was different from what you and Sri Murthi-ji were saying, so I
raised the question. Once again, I am grateful to both for explaining your
viewpoints.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:38:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: FW: Our Fundamental Error - Part 6 of 11
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Note: forwarded message attached.


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:39:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: Our Fundamental Error - Part 7 of 11
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Are we sages? No!
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 21:03:38 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Vishal Agarwal" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


While the questions are addressed to Sri Hudli, I hope the list will not
mind my intrusion:

----Original Message Follows----
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
VAG:1. Can we ask God ( in whatever way, shape or form ) for
 **material** wealth like house, cars etc.?
VA: Yes. Paramatman is not only Sacchidananda but is also related to us in
various ways, and his impersonal and personal aspects form one organic
whole. Yajurveda Samhita says: 'Sa no bandhurjanita, sa vidhaata, dhaamaani
veda bhuvanani vishvaa |'
We can indeed ask our paramabandhu whatever we seek, but of course it is
upto the Vidhaataa to look at our Karma and give us what we deserve.

VAG: 2. Can we seek His/Her Grace to remove our health problems,
 spirital ignorance and other non-material disturbances?
VA: Indeed. Vedas say:
bhadram karnebhih srnuyaama devaa, bhadram pasyemaajsabhiryatraah |
Sthirairangaistashtuvamsa tanurbhivyashem devahitam yadaayuh ||
Samaveda (Kauthuma Sakha) 1874
Bhadram = from root 'bhadi kalyane sukhe cha' implying both spiritual and
material welfare.

VAGl 3. Can we pray for moksha?
VA: Certainly. Yajurveda (Kanva) Samhita 40.18 says (also last mantra of
Ishopanishad)
"Angey naya supathaa, raaya asmaan, visvaani deva vayunaai vidvaan |
YuyodhyasmajuuhuraaNmeno bhuyishthhantey nama uktim vidhema ||"
Bhagvaptapada also construes this mantra as a prayer for nihsreyasa.

_________________
VAG:I am quite confused over these issues.
In 1), from what little I know of our scriptures, they seem
to be saying that this is a definite NO-NO for an aspirant.
The first verse of Isha Upandishad comes to my mind.
It clearly states that we should not seek "dhanam". No?

VA: Not really. The words are:
"Isavasyamidam sarvam yatkinchajagatyaam jagat |
Tena tyaketena bhunjithaa maa gridhah kasya svit dhanam ||
Isa Up 1 (or Sukla Yajurveda Samhita 40.1)

An expanded meaning of this verse would be:
All sentinent and insentinent objects in this ever changing Universe
are ephermal and pass away with time.
But the Lord Who is immanent in everything, and controls it in multifarious
ways,
is Eternal and Imperishable.
Seek to realize this Eternal Truth and do not get entangled in this world.
Enjoy the bounties of Nature, but with a sense of reunuciation.
Do not hanker too much after riches and do not get obsessed with them.
To whom does all this belong? Certainly not to any man,
for we do not bring anything with us, nor do we take anything along.
But He, the Underlying Reality, owns all this,
and we are mere guardians of His Divine riches. || 1 ||

But, artha and kama are two of the four goals of life.
Also, there are various vedic rituals that are meant to
bestow very specific material benefits to the performer.
How do our acharyas resolve this?

______________

VAG: Regarding 2), it seems OK to do this as God is a support
for those in distress. But, this has the problem of conditional
faith. Should we think of God as the "miracle" worker who
would cure us of our disease and disabilities? This seems
quite contrary to the view of God in our tradition.
What do our scriptures say about this?
VA: A complete freedom from disease and disabilities leading to a state of
svarajya and ananta ananda will result only in the Moksha state. The world
aadhi-vyaadhi nevertheless are impediments in the path of spiritual
realization and prayer can indeed help us in overcomming these impediments.
Prayer must however, be acompanied by our personal efforts in eradicating
our problems because 'the devas help them who get up and help themselves'
(Rigveda). Sarvajnanamaya Vedas contain information on herbs, on the need to
do hard work (whether in agriculture or trade etc.) and the implication
therefore is that Karma MUST be combined with Bhakti. An expanded
translation of the second verse of Ishopanishad could be (ignoring
Bhagvatpada's contention that it is addressed only the votaries of Saguna
Brahman):

Seek not the Truth by abandoning this world
Or by renouncing all your bounden duties.
This is indeed not the path of salvation.
Rather, desire ye to live a full life of a hundred years,
Actively engaged in the selfless perfromance
of your duties and enjoined actions at all times.
Verily, this is the only way enjoined for man’s salvation,
And not the opposite.
All actions bear fruit- good or bad.
And these fruits taint his soul, causing him to be reborn!
But the fruits of actions- good or otherwise, don’t taint that wise man,
who performs his duties selflessly, as an offering to God,
Just as a lotus leaf is not tainted by water, even though touching it.
But he, who through ignorance, shirks away from his duties,
Merely deludes himself by thinking- ‘I am performing any action!’
Aye! no man can desist from action for even a single moment.” || 2 ||

The mantra quoted above also says: "devahitam yadaayuh" and in the last
chapter of Gita also, it is said that 'Yajna, daana and tapas should never
be abandoned (curiously Bhagvatpada takes this shloka also an injunction
only for a particular class of people).

There is a triad of mantras in the Ishavasya Upanishad stating that we ought
to combine Sambhuti with Asambhuti. Various bhashyakaras give different
meanings, but in my opinion, we ought to look at the other occurances of the
words in Vedic texts. And these words occur only in the Talavakara Aranyaka
wherein it is clear that Sambhuti means 'cause' or the 'seed' and Asambhuti
means that which is an effect. Sambhuti therefore is Brahman, the
paramakarana and Asambhuti is the samsaara. The triad of mantras teaches us
that via 'Asambhuti, we go beyond death' and via 'Sambhuti, we enjoy
immortaility'. The two results are the same, but the last phrase is more
direct than the former. Implying that Samsaara is helpful in Moksha but the
direct cause of Moksha is Sambhuti or Brahman alone. The role of Samsaara is
to aid us to attain Salvation, it is Brahman alone who is the supreme
bestower of Salvation.
________

VAG: For 3), it seems to be in conflict with advaita, as bhakti
in advaita merely leads to chitta-shuddhi and not moksha.
Given that, would it be appropriate in advaita-bhAva to
seek moksha from God?

VA: The difference need not be stretched too far. Bhakti, Jnana are distinct
much only in the initial stages of spiritual enlightenment. In this initial
stage, it is the svabhaava of the votary which propels him towards a
particular emphasis. In reality, there is always a portion of Jnana in
Bhakti and Karma, always a portion of Bhakti in Jnana and Karma and always a
portion of Karma in Jnana and Bhakti. Towards the higher states of spiritual
attainment however, the three streams become more and more similar, and fuse
with each other. Just as the Ganga, Yamuna and Sarasvati fuse with each
other. The collective flow of the mighty Ganga then takes the spiritual
votary to the Mahaasaagar, where he loses naama and rupa.
It is probably with this intent (of the unity of different paths towards the
end, and the presence of a portion of one in the other), that Sri Krishna
also says:
'Samkhya-yogau prthagbaalaah, na pravadanti panditaah|

Regards

Vishal

Homepage- http://www.voi.org/vishal_agarwal/homepage.html

_________________________________________________________________
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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:24:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Are we sages? No!
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:35:22 -0800, Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
wrote:

>--- ShrI Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...> wrote:
>> Many people go to temples and worship God. But so many of
>> them are
>> unable to concentrate on God and His worship even in His
>> temple. They
>> are constantly thinking of how much money they made or
>> lost or some
>> other selfish end. Consequently, their worship has little
>> significance.
>
>Thank you ShrI Anand-ji for this wonderful post.
>Especially your statements above are very poignant indeed.
>I have had a long-standing doubt regarding this.
>
>1. Can we ask God ( in whatever way, shape or form ) for
> **material** wealth like house, cars etc.?
>2. Can we seek His/Her Grace to remove our health problems,
> spirital ignorance and other non-material disturbances?
>3. Can we pray for moksha?
>

These questions can be answered in different ways, depending on
the perspective we take. Such tricky questions arise because we
grow up with the "dvaitabhAva", a sense that God is different
from the devotee. If God is, at least in theory, accepted as
the Self, then these questions disappear. It does not make
sense for me, for example, to ask "Hey! Myself! Give me some
money. Give me a car." or "Make my sickness go away", etc.

But it is hard for everyone to view God at this level. So a
gradual process is advised. At the lowest level, a devotee
considers God as separate and asks for favors. Perhaps, this
is better than not turning to God at all. But such a stage
has to be overcome because 1) one cannot make deals with
God, and 2) it might become detrimental to further development
of bhakti. Let us say a person asks for a favor and that favor
is not granted. Then there is a possibility that the person will
become disappointed and lose faith. The fault does not lie with
God, of course. God does not make deals; if He did He would be
no better than a businessman. But one thing is certain, as the
bhakti-oriented texts say. God will look after the welfare of
the devotee. "ananyAshchintayanto mAM ye janAH paryupAsate |
teShAM nityAbhiyuktAnAM yogaxemaM vahAmyaham.h" Here yoga-xema
is split into "yogaH - aprAptasya prApaNaM, getting what has not
been attained" and "xemaH- tadraxaNam.h, maintaining or guarding
what has been thus attained". So God will look after His sincere
devotee *even*if* He is not asked to do so. But His ways are
mysterious and often the devotee cannot comprehend what is
going on. I am aware of the fact that the author of the nArAyaNIyaM
asks Krishna to cure his ailment. My contention is that the Lord
would have cured him even if he had not asked for it. There is
a story of Bhakta-kumbAra (or gorA-kumbAr), the potter who was
a devotee of ViThala. At the end of the story, the potter simply
offers his unconditional prayers to the Lord, without asking for
anything, and as a "by-product" of his bhakti, the Lord restores
the potter's dead son to life. The moral of the story is that if
a devotee is suffering from something, God already knows it, since
He is right there in everyone's heart. There is no need to ask
for anything. This idea is brought home again and again in the
bhAgavata where bhaktas such as prahlAda, muchukunda, and others,
when given a darshan of God do not ask for anything, only constant
devotion to Him. But the Lord gives them the "yoga-xema" that they
need anyway. One just needs to be steadfast in devotion. Leave the
rest to Him. (In fact, dhruva, who asks for some material benefits,
later repents tremendously for asking for such petty favors.)

The proponents of bhakti would further add that even asking for
moxa is redundant. Even that comes as a "by-product" of bhakti.

Finally, the gItA and bhAgavata combined are texts that deal with
bhakti in an exhaustive manner and answer any and all questions
related to

>From ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:57:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Conversation with a 5 year old.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>


Namaste Savithri and all others

Two points.
Firstly as a teacher of young children, as well as
university students, I am very aware of the ability of
the young child...0-11yrs....to absorb and discuss and
enlighten on matters of Truth. How about this:
We were discussing law with some 10 year olds:
"I understand law," said Andrew,"It is like a feather.
 When I tell lies the words are heavy but when I am
telling the truth the words are light, like a
feather."
He had understood, beneath his limited language, a
main principal of life. When our actions accord with
Absolute will then the action and the knowledge flow
with ease; when we are doing what we want or are
trying to avoid what we do not want to do then the
actions become heavy and full of disorder. Gradually
we explored the notion of vairagya and from his
insight we all learned.
Secondly I am making a plea to you although I am sure
that you do this already because you subscribe to this
site. Here in England, and it is probably the same in
USA, there is a 'hamburger generation' of young Asians
who know nothing of the Asian culture. The input of
Freudian psychology has left an inheritance of
ignorance as to the reality of the atman and we hear
more of self-assertiveness classes than of Self
knowledge. This will only imprison the children in a
world of delusion, superimposition and ignorance. It
may seem strange to some that as an Englishman I find
myself teaching Vedanta to young Asians. However I
feel that it is so important that we all acknowledge
that India has the custodian culture for a great
source of Real knowledge that is there for service to
the world. As such the Indian culture is my culture.
English is increasingly a prakrit language and it
needs the input from Sanskrit to enable our young to
be able to converse on their spiritual insights. They
certainly have them but without the appropriate
language they cannot share them or enable the seeds of
insight to germinate and flower.
As custodians of this culture we need to pass it on as
freely as is possible,
Ken Knight
--- Savithri Devaraj <savdev at H...> wrote:

<HR>
<html><DIV>Namaste,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I want to relate a conversation I had with me
child a few days ago. I was exhausted after a full
day's work and something was just not going right
and I just exclaimed "Shankara, RamaNa, take me
home!!" Similar to how some people in India say "Rama,
KrishNa" etc., when they are tired. My 5 year old (SH)
who heard me started this conversation.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>SH: Amma, don't you think you're forgetting
something?</DIV>
<DIV>Me: What? What am I forgetting?</DIV>
<DIV> I thought perhaps I had forgotten something
I should have done, which is quite common.</DIV>
<DIV>SH: You are already home! Don't you see?</DIV>
<DIV>Me: Oh yeah, Can you think of what else I could
have meant when I asked Him to take me home?</DIV>
<DIV>SH: No, I don't know. What is it?</DIV>
<DIV>Me: Think of where we come from. Which other
place could be home?</DIV>
<DIV>SH: Oh, I know, India! You come from India, so
you want to go back there!</DIV>
<DIV>Me: Yes, that is correct. I love to go to India,
But, think of another place, more general we could
call home. Where did we all come from?</DIV>
<DIV>SH: Oh, From Maami (means God in child's
kannada). You want to go back to Maami??</DIV>
<DIV>Me: Yes, you got it!</DIV>
<DIV> Actually, I was quite happy, he guessed
right.</DIV>
<DIV>SH: But, Amma, you are forgetting
something,</DIV>
<DIV> He says it very tauntingly.</DIV>
<DIV>Me: What, What is it I am forgetting now??</DIV>
<DIV>SH: Remember, Maami is with us all the time. He
is our best friend, we can talk to him
anytime,.....</DIV>
<DIV> He goes on. That did it. It made my
day.</DIV>
<DIV>Me: Who told you this?</DIV>
<DIV>SH: Remember, you always say that. Why, are you
so tired, you don't remember?</DIV>
<DIV> <BR>It was such a surprise to me that this
5 year old had so much faith in his mom's words. 
I was really impressed by his answers. Ofcourse, I had
to concede that I knew God was in each one of us and
reinforced his faith further, He went on to ask me why
I said what I said if I knew God was already in me. I
had to explain to him that sometimes I am so tired
that I just want to be alone with God. So remember,
kids are very impressionable. We, atleast I, tend to
think they may not get all that I am saying, but I say
it anyway. They have great faith in what you as
parents say. Also, the earlier you start them on these
things, the better. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Even if one parent gets influenced by this and
talks more with their children, it has been worth
typing this in. I feel very fortunate that I had a lot
of good influence from my parents and grandparents
when I was growing up. I would be extremely happy if
my kids turn out even half as aware of their Spirit,
especially growing up abroad in these trobled
times.  </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks and regards,</DIV>
<DIV>Savithri</DIV><br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE
download of MSN Explorer at <a
href="http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p></html>


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>From "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:06:06 +0400
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Shri Vyasji,

Sadar Pranams.

I feel honoured at your request,however I have not reached that stage of
writing to an elite audience.This is the 5th time I am listening to Srimad
Bhagawatham and each time I seem to be learning something new and contiue
to wonder how it did not catch my attention the previous time.
However I shall try to get the address of Prof.Prema Pandurang who was
instrumental in my getting interested into this.
Prof.Pandurang runs a Ashram called KSHETROPASANA located in Srivilliputtur
near MADRAS.She renounced her post of English professor at Presidency
College,Madras and is into propagating BHAKTHI and Social Service in a big
way.
Most or all your list members would have heard her soul stirring lectures
as she is an international traveller.Another apt person would be Mr.Seshan our
ex Election Commissioner who happens to be closely assosiated with Prema-
Pandurangji.
What impressed me most with Bhagawatham was to know that all of us can
reach God in our own ways-whether we are TAMOgunic,RAJOgunic orSATWAgunic.
We do not have to leave any Karma or duties to attain the LORD instead do
all our jobs with submission to God.Instead of our leaving the Karma ,Karma
will leave us.
The speciality said for BHAGAWATHA SHRAVANAM is that Lord Almighty enters
your Heart even before the starting-Sankalpa Mathram HE is there to
facilitate your goal.I have experienced this practically.It is astonishing
how I stumbled on these cassettes!
I live in DUBAI(UAE) a muslim country and longed for Satsanga and Guru
guidance after listning to Premaji.Next day I found a bagful of cassettes
in my relative's home here in Dubai,lying on the floor and asked about
them.I was shocked to know they were not aware of its contents and that was
a gift for donation they had made for some fund raising programme!I said I
would listen
and return to which I was promptly asked to take them for good as they had
no time.
To my good luck I found NARAYANEEYAM by Shri.Jayarama sharma in those
casettes.
It was not in detail however 10 precious cassettes which made me more hungry.
Next week I went to India on short vacation,It so happened there was a
Series of Sanskrit Made Easy classes and VISHNU SAHASRANAMAM
transliteration in English.My vacation was blissful and the last day I went
to a Carnatic Music Cassettes shop and There I found a oldman trying to
market some religious cassettes to the shop.I saw the Title and to my
delight they were These same SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM Cassettes which I am
listening till to day.
I am still not satisfied and will have to listen to them many more times.
Therefore KAMYAPHALAM is only an attraction for Lay man to takeup
scriptures and once you are deep into it then there is no need for those
phalams at all.

Thank you very much for allowing me to share these thoughts with you.

Regards
Annapurna









At 02:46 PM 3/7/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> I am currently listning to cassettes on
>> SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM where there is line to line quotation of Shrimad
>> Narayaneeyam.
>> This is a series of lectures in Tamil by Brahmasri Sengalipuram Anantharama
>> Deekshithar.
>
>Several list members have written on the subject of the Bhagavata but have
>been unable to continue for various reasons. Perhaps you can take up this
>topic as time permits?
>
>--
>Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:24:22 -0500
Subject: New Book Release
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


As we are discussing Brahmasuutra-s, I would like to inform the
release of a new book - Shreemannyaayasudhasaara which discusses the
dwaitic view of Brahmasuutra-s.
A little background about the book - Shree Madhvachaarya has written
four books which are commentaries on Brahmasuutra of which
Anuvyaakhyaana is one of the most popular book. On this Shree Jaya
Theertha has written further commentary - a monumental work called
Nyaayasudha - this latter book is considered the ultimate book in
Madhwa tradition and is treated very reverentially. Shree H.H. Swami
Vishwesha Thiirta Swamiji of Pejavara Mutt has condensed the above
two books into a two-part book called Shreemannyaayasudhaasaara in
KannaDa language. Shree Gururaja Acharya who was a formerly junior
MaTaadhipati - Swami Viswavijaya Thiirtha of Pejavara Mutt, and who
incidentally a God given Son for us, translated the book into English
while I was there in Madras. This book is now published with the
blessing of Vishwesha Theertha Swamij by the Shri Krishana Shri
Ragavendra Mutt of Madras. I have provide below some introduction
and also where the book can be obtained. Shree Paramaarthanandaji,
based on whose lectures I am writing my Brahmasuutra notes, also
wrote a brief preface for the book. If anyone wants more info. about
the book, he/she can contact me or the Mutt directly.

Hari Om!
Sadananda
--------------------------------------

 Shreemannyaayasudhaasaara
 (Parts I & II)
 by
 H.H. Shri Vishwesha Theertha Swamiji
 Shri Pejavara Mutt
 English Translation by
 Shri Gururaja Acharya
 (formerly Shri Viswavijaya Theertha of Pejavara Mutt)

Published by
Sri Krishna Sri Raghavendra Mutt
T. Nagar, Madras
Copies can be obtained from Pejavara Mutt or from the Publisher
(Price Rs. 150 + postage)


H.H. Shri Vishwesha Theertha Swamiji writes in his preface to the
original text in kannada:

"We have made efforts to simplify to the extent possible the essence
of Anuvyaakhyaana and Nyaayasudha in this text. There is no
spiritual topic, which is not included in the Nyaayasudha. We can
find a unique talent in the Nyaayasudha of analyzing all the aspects
in every detail and examining each one logically according to valid
means of knowledge, pramaaNa. This work answers directly to all
objections and questions regarding any philosophical subject. This
is the masterpiece in the philosophical field. We have tried to
translate in a simple style without using technical words so that
even ordinary seekers can understand the analysis of the truth. The
first two chapters of this text have analyzed the supreme
infiniteness of the Lord who alone is the knowable entity in all the
scriptures. It has been discussed carefully so that the glory of the
Lord is not tainted by any defects. We can find the beautiful
description of he personality of the Lord without affecting His
infiniteness, which is entirely different from sentient and
insentient world, which is full of defects and weaknesses. There is
no scope for unreality in the spiritual pursuits for the realization
of the Supreme Brahman. An emphasis is given from the beginning to
the end for a realistic path of approaching the Lord. It is depicted
that there are no inadequacies in the state of liberation, which is
ultimate goal, or fruit of all our pursuits. No one will desire for
such liberation where one looses his own identity and which is devoid
of happiness and consciousness. All the three, the subject of this
text, path and the final goal, are defect-less and supreme. Hence
this text is regarded as the best of all. We hope that the seekers
will accept this simple and clear translation of this great work.

We have collected all the philosophical aspects described under each
topic and presented in this text. We would like to present the
detailed analysis of pramaaNa, prameya and other schools of thought
in the second part.

.........
In his introduction to the second part Shri Swamiji writes:

In the first part we have explained the meaning of adhikaraNa-s in
Brahmasuutra on the basis of Sreemannyaayasudha and Anuvyaakyaana.
In this second part the same topics have been discussed in an
exhaustive manner. Shree Madhvachaarya has described pramaaNa and
prameya in detail in his masterpiece, Anuvyaakyaana, along with
comparative analysis of the divergent schools of thoughts. In this
part, in conjunction with the discussion of these topics from Sudha,
we have explained them in detail. An attempt is made to explain
several subjects including the unreality of the world, the identity
of jiiva and Brahman, etc., which were critically discussed in Sudha
at various places, are grouped together and discussed in one place.
We have made efforts in presenting for the society in a simple way,
extremely difficult subjects of the scriptures, which are very deep
and profound, without using much of technical jargon. We hope that
the sincere seeker will get benefit our of this

In this part there are intensive examination of pros and cons of
different schools of thoughts. These discussions are conducted from
the point of reality to inquire into the truth. This will not
perturb anyone who has an unbiased vision of inquiry into the truth
and free from possessions and aversions. To realize the truth, such
comparative analysis is unavoidable. But it should be limited only
to the inquiry of the truth. Then there wouldn't be any problem for
the unity of the society and for cooperative endeavor for common
upliftment among all believers. One should bear this in mind while
studying this book. Then only there will not be any room for
misunderstanding.

Sd.
Shree Vishwesha Theertha Swamiji
Shree Pejavara Adhokshaja Mutt, Udipi.

Ashirvachanam:

We are immensely pleased to know that the English version of
Nyaayasudhaasara authored by us is getting published. Our beloved
spiritual disciple Shri Gururaja Acharya has translated it into
English. Sri Gururaja Acharya who has studied under our guidance,
Nyaya, Vedanta, etc., in a traditional and classical style is a great
scholar and highly talented. His interest in learning English
language was tremendous. He has taken meticulous care and attempted
successfully to translate into English the Sudhaasaara of Kannada
version replete with highly subtle philosophical aspects. We are
extremely appreciative of Shri Gururaja Acharya for accomplishing
this great task and hope that many such works on Vedanta will be
brought out by him. We pray Lord Shri Krishna and Shri Madhvacharya
to bless him. We also hope that the people of different place and
language will enjoy absolutely the essential and excellent teachings
of the Shreemannyaayasudha, the great masterpiece of Shri
Jayatheertha.

With Supreme NaraayaNa Smaranaas
Shri Vishwesha Theertha Swamiji of
Pejavara Mutt)

Translators Offerings:

....... A study of Anuvyaakyaana and Sudha is an essential
prerequisite for getting a deeper insight into Dwaita Vedanta
Tenants. But these are highly technical works written in terse
Sanskrit and presented in the classical style replete with subtleties
of dialectical arguments. Hence they are beyond the comprehension of
ordinary students of philosophy. ... So far as I am aware, it is for
the first time that an attempt is being made to present in simple
Kannada the quintessence of Anuvyaakhyaaana and Shreemannyaayasudha
in a authoritative manner with hair-splitting analysis, more
importantly maintaining total consistency from the beginning to the
end of the text, which is a special characteristic style of Shree
Swamiji. This monumental work is not only the essence of Sudha but
also the clear evidence of unique brilliance of Shree Swamiji.

I felt that such a great work should be a benefit not only to kannada
speaking people, but to all the philosophical minds of he world, that
are interested to learn exclusive contributions of the great Shri
Madhvachaarya and Shree Jayatheertha.

..... I tried to keep as close to the text as possible in translation
without diluting or distorting the original subject matter although
at times it was extremely difficult to find the right choice of the
words to give exact import of the text. The great opportunity to
learn Shreemannyaayasudha in the traditional manner directly from
Swamiji and
   to teach the text to the students of Vidhyaapeeta from
Bangalore during the mid eighties has greatly helped me in
translating this kannada version into English. ... It is my great
joy and satisfaction to offer this translation at the Holy feet of my
Guru, Shree Vishwesha Theertha Swamiji as an expression of my deep
gratitude and reverence. ...

With Pranaams
Shri Gururaja Acharya
Madras

Message by Swami Paramaarthananda of advaita tradition

Shreemannyaaya sudha is an important Vedantic work authored by Shree
Jayatheertha. This masterpiece presents the Vedantic teaching as
seen by Dvaita Tradition. Being a polemical work written in Sanskrit
with technical terms of logic, this great work is not accessible to
the lay seeker. For their benefit, revered Shree Vishwesha Theertha
Swamiji has broughtout its simplified kannada Version titled as
Shreemannyaayasudhasaara. A great attempt has been made to translate
this work in English so that it can benefit a wider audience. Shree
Gururaja Acharya who was formally the junior Acharya of Shree
Pejavara Mutt has done a great service through this work. Keeping
the translation as close to the original as possible, Shree Gururaja
Acharya has managed to present this monumental work in a simple
language. I am sure that this translated version will be welcomed by
all the Vedantic Students and that more people will be benefited
through this work

with Naaryayanasmrithis
Swami Paramaarthananda
Madras.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:19:30
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dr. Annapurna S. wrote:

> >> I am currently listning to cassettes on
> >> SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM where there is line to line quotation of Shrimad
> >> Narayaneeyam.
> >> This is a series of lectures in Tamil by Brahmasri Sengalipuram
>Anantharama Deekshithar.

Annapurnaji,

In my childhood, my mother used to take me to Deekshithar's lectures. I have
heard him several times, but being playful, I have not really taken interest
in those lectures.

Srimad Bhagavatham is huge and it must be several cassettes. How many
cassettes are there? Is this Narayaneeyam or Bhagavatham itself? Is it
possible to get them all in India? If so, can we have the contact address or
telephone number please?

Thanks,
Ravi

>From: "Dr. Annapurna S" <drannas at E...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:06:06 +0400
>
>Shri Vyasji,
>
>Sadar Pranams.
>
>I feel honoured at your request,however I have not reached that stage of
>writing to an elite audience.This is the 5th time I am listening to Srimad
>Bhagawatham and each time I seem to be learning something new and contiue
>to wonder how it did not catch my attention the previous time.
>However I shall try to get the address of Prof.Prema Pandurang who was
>instrumental in my getting interested into this.
>Prof.Pandurang runs a Ashram called KSHETROPASANA located in Srivilliputtur
>near MADRAS.She renounced her post of English professor at Presidency
>College,Madras and is into propagating BHAKTHI and Social Service in a big
>way.
>Most or all your list members would have heard her soul stirring lectures
>as she is an international traveller.Another apt person would be Mr.Seshan
>our
>ex Election Commissioner who happens to be closely assosiated with Prema-
>Pandurangji.
>What impressed me most with Bhagawatham was to know that all of us can
>reach God in our own ways-whether we are TAMOgunic,RAJOgunic orSATWAgunic.
>We do not have to leave any Karma or duties to attain the LORD instead do
>all our jobs with submission to God.Instead of our leaving the Karma ,Karma
>will leave us.
>The speciality said for BHAGAWATHA SHRAVANAM is that Lord Almighty enters
>your Heart even before the starting-Sankalpa Mathram HE is there to
>facilitate your goal.I have experienced this practically.It is astonishing
>how I stumbled on these cassettes!
>I live in DUBAI(UAE) a muslim country and longed for Satsanga and Guru
>guidance after listning to Premaji.Next day I found a bagful of cassettes
>in my relative's home here in Dubai,lying on the floor and asked about
>them.I was shocked to know they were not aware of its contents and that was
>a gift for donation they had made for some fund raising programme!I said I
>would listen
>and return to which I was promptly asked to take them for good as they had
>no time.
>To my good luck I found NARAYANEEYAM by Shri.Jayarama sharma in those
>casettes.
>It was not in detail however 10 precious cassettes which made me more
>hungry.
>Next week I went to India on short vacation,It so happened there was a
>Series of Sanskrit Made Easy classes and VISHNU SAHASRANAMAM
>transliteration in English.My vacation was blissful and the last day I went
>to a Carnatic Music Cassettes shop and There I found a oldman trying to
>market some religious cassettes to the shop.I saw the Title and to my
>delight they were These same SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM Cassettes which I am
>listening till to day.
>I am still not satisfied and will have to listen to them many more times.
>Therefore KAMYAPHALAM is only an attraction for Lay man to takeup
>scriptures and once you are deep into it then there is no need for those
>phalams at all.
>
>Thank you very much for allowing me to share these thoughts with you.
>
>Regards
>Annapurna
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>At 02:46 PM 3/7/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> I am currently listning to cassettes on
> >> SRIMAD BHAGAWATHAM where there is line to line quotation of Shrimad
> >> Narayaneeyam.
> >> This is a series of lectures in Tamil by Brahmasri Sengalipuram
>Anantharama
> >> Deekshithar.
> >
> >Several list members have written on the subject of the Bhagavata but
>have
> >been unable to continue for various reasons. Perhaps you can take up
>this
> >topic as time permits?
> >
> >--
> >Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>
> >

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:31:27 +0400
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Dear Raviji,

Namaskarangal.

Srimad Bhagawatham by Deekshitharval is a set of 28 cassettes.This is his
BHAGAVATHA SAPTHAHAM discourse at Konerirajapuram.This and many other
series of Deekshitharval,like MAHABHARATHAM(60 cassettes) and Ramayanam are
also available.
All of them are available at GIRI TRADERS in SANNADHI St (Kapaleeshwarar
temple)MYLAPRE.They also have Krishnapremi's Srimad Bhagawatham(48)
cassettes which I bought this year.
I will try to get their postal address for you if you are interested.
Thanks for the interest

>From Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan <kartik at e...>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:06:25 -0600 (CST)
Reply-To: Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan <kartik at e...>
Subject: Awaiting the Guru (Was Re: Advaita in 20th Century)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sankaran Kartik Jayanarayanan <kartik at e...>


Vaidya Sundaram wrote:

> Sadananda wrote:
> > The one who has the vairaagya and mumukshutvam (see my notes on BSB
> > related to suutra 1), let him approach a teacher who is, 1) fully
> > estasbilshed in Brahma (brahma nishhTa), and 2) who is shotriam
>
> Also, earlier Sadananda wrote:
> > One does not have to hunt for a teacher - the teacher shall come if
> > the student is ready. I have experienced this in my own life.
>
> Namaskaram.
> To try and address some aspects of your mail, Sadananda-ji, while I must
> admit the value of most of the things you note, I still hold to my point
> that the Guru does not "appear" when the student is "ready". I have pasted
> a small section of your mail(s) above. Shankra clearly says, as you also
> note: "Let him approach a teacher" - so, the idea is clearly that the
> student has to approach the teacher ...

The Vedaanta tradition also accepts the idea of the Guru approaching the
sincere disciple in order to impart knowledge.

Vide "Dialogues with the Guru" (by Chandrashekhara Bhaaratii), page 70:

-----------------------
L. : But where in these days can such a Guru be found?

H.H.: That is an unnecessary question. If you wish for him in all
earnestness, he will be before you in no time; but if you require his
presence only to enable you to test his competency to be a Guru, he will
be farther off than before.
-----------------------

Read again the lines, "If you wish for him in all earnestness, he will be
before you in no time". Clearly, this is a case of the Guru approaching
the earnest and determined disciple, not the other way

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:22:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


http://www.giritrading.com/

--- "Dr. Annapurna S" <drannas at e...> wrote:
> All of them are available at GIRI TRADERS in SANNADHI St
> (Kapaleeshwarar
> temple)MYLAPRE.They also have Krishnapremi's Srimad Bhagawatham(48)
> cassettes which I bought this year.
> I will try to get their postal address for you if you are interested.
> Thanks for the interest shown.


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:29:13
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Thanks a lot. I will ask some one in Madras to find out in Giri traders.
Thanks again,
Ravi

>From: "Dr. Annapurna S" <drannas at E...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:31:27 +0400
>
>Dear Raviji,
>
>Namaskarangal.
>
>Srimad Bhagawatham by Deekshitharval is a set of 28 cassettes.This is his
>BHAGAVATHA SAPTHAHAM discourse at Konerirajapuram.This and many other
>series of Deekshitharval,like MAHABHARATHAM(60 cassettes) and Ramayanam are
>also available.
>All of them are available at GIRI TRADERS in SANNADHI St (Kapaleeshwarar
>temple)MYLAPRE.They also have Krishnapremi's Srimad Bhagawatham(48)
>cassettes which I bought this year.
>I will try to get their postal address for you if you are interested.
>Thanks for the interest shown.
>Regards
>Annapurna

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:32:18
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravishankar Venkatraman" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I just cannot believe myself here. This list is amazing and everyone has
information about everything. I feel kind of dumb not knowing any stuff.

Ravi


>From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at Y...>
>Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
><ADVAITA-L at b...>
>To: ADVAITA-L at L...
>Subject: Re: New member introduction: Annapurna Swaminathan
>Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:22:57 -0800
>
>http://www.giritrading.com/
>
>--- "Dr. Annapurna S" <drannas at e...> wrote:
> > All of them are available at GIRI TRADERS in SANNADHI St
> > (Kapaleeshwarar
> > temple)MYLAPRE.They also have Krishnapremi's Srimad Bhagawatham(48)
> > cassettes which I bought this year.
> > I will try to get their postal address for you if you are interested.
> > Thanks for the interest shown.
>
>
>=====
>ambaaL daasan
>
>Ravi
>
>sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI
>
>http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From vaidya_sundaram at i...
Subject: New member introduction: Raghu Madabushi
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:42:41 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: vaidya_sundaram at i...


----- Forwarded by Vaidya Sundaram on 03/08/01 12:07 PM -----

 Raghu Re: Welcome and Request for more info.
 Madabushi
 <scifilvr at y...
 oo.com>

 03/06/01
 02:24 PM



Hello,

I'm new to this philosophy. I was reading up on
Advaita, on a few Chinmaya Mission web-sites, and
was interested in getting more articles, and
perspectives on this, when I found your mailing list.

I dont think I'll ever have anything to say, since
there is a lot to learn before I can even think about
mailing/contributing to this list.

I hope to understand some teachings, and be a better
person

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:05:13 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1C
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit


 Notes on BSB - I-i-4-1C

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .
 suutra: tat tu samanvayaat.h .


Now The Analysis of the word 'tu':

We will now analyze the word 'tu', which we skipped before for
convenience. It is the most important word of this suutra. This
simple looking word 'tu' received the most elaborate analysis by
Bhagavatpada Shankara.

The word 'tu' is used for emphasis. In English it means only or
alone. We have said that Brahman is the subject matter of Vedanta
shaastram. By adding 'tu' Vyasacharya is emphasizing that Brahman
alone is the subject matter of Vedanta shaastra. This is called
avadhaaraNam or emphasis. Indirectly Vyasa is implying that nothing
else is the subject matter. Hence every emphasis involves indirectly
a negation of non-essentials. This exclusion in Sanskrit is called
vyaavR^itti - thus every avadhaaraNam implies a vyaavR^itti. tu
shabdhaH vyavR^ityarthaH. Hence Shankara says 'tu' involves
puurvapaksha vyaavR^itti artham. By using the word 'tu', Vyasa is
negating all other interpretations, and all other puurvapakshi-s.
Here the puurvapakshi-s include all those who claim that the subject
matter of Vedanta shaastram is other than Brahman. Who are those
puurvapaksha-s? Obviously it includes only those who analyze the
Vedanta shaastram. Hence naastika-s are not of concern here since
they do not believe in Veda pramaaNa. Hence the puurvapaksha-s are
the aastika-s, that is those who accept Veda pramaaNam. There are six
aastika darshhanam - saa.nkhya, yoga, nyaaya, vaisheshhika, puurva
miimaa.nsaa and uttaramiimaa.nsa or vedaanta (see Introductory
chapter for details). The first five are the possible puurvapaksha in
relation to Vedanta. Of these we reduced them to three since saankhya
and yoga are practically the same and they are bunched as one as
saa.nkhya-yoga system. Similarly nyaaya and vaisheshhika are almost
the same and together are referred to as nyaaya-vaisheshhika system.
Hence the three puurvapaksha-s; saa.nkhya-yoga, nyaaya-vaisheshika
and puurvamiimaa.nsaa are negated using the word 'tu'. Vyasa has to
negate each one. He considers saa.nkhya-yoga as the most powerful
puurvapaksha. Hence he spends the rest of the first chapter, from
fifth to one-hundred & thirty four, for two tasks; establishing
Vedanta that is brahma samanvaya and negating saa.nkhya-yoga
puurvapaksha. Hence the rest of the 130 suutra-s in this chapter is a
commentary on the word 'tu'. He extends this negation of
saa.nkhya-yoga even to the second chapter. The nyaaya-vaisheshhika is
not looked upon as that powerful but only a weak puurvapaksha for
refutation. In the second chapter nyaaya-vaisheshhika is discussed
very briefly. In one suutra Vyasa says it is not at all relevant.

puurvamiimaa.nsaa is only left out. It is the ritualistic section of
the Veda and is analyzed using sutra format by Jaimini maharshi, who
was in fact a disciple of Vyasacharya. There is a bhaashhyam also for
this suutra by shabara swami - shaabara bhaashhyam. Shankara holds
this bhaashhyam with high regard. We normally do not consider the
puurvamiimaa.nsaa and shaarbara bhaashhyam as puurvapaksha at all,
since the puurva bhaaga of Veda-s are relevant and useful since it is
a means for dharma, artha and kaama - dharma artha kaama
purushhaartha siddhyarthaM puurvamiimaa.nsaa atyantam upakaarakam. In
addition it is useful for chittashuddhi, for purification of the
mind. Hence it is called dharma shaastram. It is helpful to obtain
the saadhana chatushhTaya sampatti, discussed with reference to
suutra 1. Hence puurvamiimaa.nsaa is not really a puurvapaksha. But
we emphasize that puurvamiimaa.nsaa cannot give moksha. According to
Vedantins, Jaimini as well as Shabara muni also accept this. However
later there were subcommentators who wrote subcommentaries on the
shaabara bhaashhyam and presented the puurvamiimaa.nsaa as a means of
moksha. Subsequently the subcommentators pushed their arguments
further to claim that puurvamiimaa.nsaa alone gives moksha, and
uttaramiimaa.nsaa is utterly useless. Therefore the puurvamiimaa.nsaa
as presented by these subcommentators forms puurvapaksha. Here
puurvapaksha does not include other vedantins such as
vishishhTaadvaita and Dvaita but only with non-vedantins. The
difference of opinions among the vedantins in the interpretation of
Brahmasuutra comes under yaadaviiya kalahaM, internal differences
only in interpretations since all vedantins come under one category
as uttaramiimaa.nsaka-s. Here all the puurvapakshins are aastika
anyottaramiimaa.nsaka-s. Vyasacharya is going to negate elaborately
the saa.nkhya-yoga and to some extent the nyaaya-vaisheshhika in the
first and second chapters, since those two were considered important
at that time. Since Vyasa does not discuss the puurvamiimaa.nsaa to
that extent, Shankara uses this opportunity to cover also the
puurvamiimaa.nsaa elaborately in his bhaashhyam under the pretext of
the word 'tu', Brahman alone or only. This is because of the renewed
emphasis on puurvamiimaa.nsaa or karmakaanDa at the time of Shankara,
due to the influence of Prabhakara and Kumarila Bhatta, who were the
two influential sub-commentators of the shaabara bhaashhyam of the
Jaiminisuutra-s. The story of the debate between Shankara and Mandana
Misra, the disciple of Kumarila Bhatta is well known. Kumarila
Bhatta's subcommentary is in the form of vartikam or verses known as
bhaTTa vaartikam-s and the philosophy that was expounded based on the
puurvamiimaa.nsaa is called bhaaTTamatam. Similarly Prabhakara's
commentary which is in prose form is called bR^ihatii. There he
presents another version of puurvamiiimaa.nsaa called
praabhaakaramatam. Hence bhaaTTamatam and praabhaakaramatam form the
puurvamiimaa.nsaa puurvapaksha-s for our analysis.

First the discussion of puurvapaksha. Under this we will first
discuss the common views of both matam-s and later point out where
they differ. Later we negate the puurvapaksha using siddhaanta. This
is like exercise while learning atomic theories; first we learn about
Rutherford model and then later we discard it for the better quantum
mechanical model. It provides the glimpse of the logic of the thought
that went in the analysis. As noted in the very introduction of the
suutra-s, all this analysis and the study of Brahmasutra is not
necessary for a saadhak for self-realization, but would help in
confirmation of his understanding, particularly when the mind is
still full of doubts about the nature of the reality and means to
accomplish the goal.

According to puurvamiima.nsaka-s, the entire Veda or Vedic statements
can be broadly classified into two types. 1) siddha bodhaka vaakyaani
or statements of facts 2) kaarya bodhaka vaakyaani or statements of
commandments persuading one to act, consisting of imperative and
potential moods - kuryaat, kartavyaH, na hantavyaH, etc - statements
of injunctions. Statements of facts will lead one to only knowledge,
where as the statement of commandments or injunctions will lead one
to action. They
   further argue that since the siddhabodhaka vaakyaani
or statement of facts give only knowledge, they are not much of
benefit to us. This is because mere j~naanam will not help in
accomplishing anything. Knowing itself is not an accomplishment or
end in itself. Hence j~naanam does not give any purushhaartha, it is
utterly useless. For example, if I come to know that there is a
heaven; I have only the information about the heaven now. By knowing
that there is a heaven what benefit do I get? In fact it can make me
more miserable because I have now something to compare with. Hence
knowledge does not give any benefit. If you go to a doctor, the
doctor diagnoses and says this is the disease you have. Now I have
clear knowledge of the my disease. Previously I used call it as
stomachache but now I call it with more sophisticated technical name.
How does that knowledge relieve my pain? Knowledge does not give
either sukha or sukhapraaptiH or get rid of pain or duHkha
nivR^ittiH. It does not give any purushhaartha - that involves sukha
praapti or duHkha nivR^itti or both. Therefore j~naanam does not give
any benefit. siddhabodhaka vaakyaani aprayojanaani -For example, aham
brahmaasmi - aham brahmaasmi - knowing that how does the problem is
solved. Even after knowing aham brahmaasmi, the headache or
stomachache that one has still remains. The starving pains due to
poverty in the house still remains. One still has to pay for school
fees. Did it solve family problems? Did it solve national problems?
Did it solve the problems due to hunger and poverty in India? Did it
solve the war between India and Pakistan or China? What does one get
out of any knowledge particularly the Vedanta j~naanam? On the other
hand kaaryabhodhaka vaakyaani make one to do something and by doing
alone we get some puurushhaartha in the form of either sukhapraapti
or duHkhanivR^itti. Medicine knowledge did not remove the pains only
kaaryam involving taking the medicine relieves the pain. Similarly
knowledge of heaven does not give any benefit.

swarge loke na bhayam ki.ncha naasti,
na tatra tvam na jarayaa bibheti,
ubhe tiirtvaa ashanaayaa pipaase,
shokaatigo modate swargaloke || (KaTha. U. 1-1-12)

Nachiketa says to Yama, the Lord of Death, there is no fear in the
heavens, you (death) are not there to have any effect. No fear of
oldage and disease. No pains due to hunger and thirst. Without any
sorrows one enjoys the heavenly bliss.

The above statements come under siddhabodhaka vaakyam. It says heaven
is so wonderful, etc. By knowing what do I gain. On the other hand by
doing a ritual - jyotishhToma yaga- based on the kaarya bodhaa
vaakyam one can go to heaven. jyotishhTomena swarga kaamo yajeta -
which asks one to do jyotishhToma yaga by which one can attain as
purushhaartha the heavens. Hence puurvapakshi-s assert that all the
kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s will lead to actions which will lead to
either sukhapraapti or duHkha niV^itti. Hence kaaryabodhaka vaakyams
are saprayojanaaNi or useful.

In support of their arguments puurvapakshii-s show that many Vedantic
scholars are direct proof for their assertion. They argue that even
after any amount of Vedantic teaching, the student still asks in the
end, what should I do here after? Why they want to do something? They
ask - give me a practical recipe so that I can practice or do. Give
me a mantra so that I can do japam. Now that I know I am Brahman,
what should I do now? Enough of this intellectual analysis and
studies of Brahmasutra-s etc will not help. It is just a waste of
time. What we need to do is we need to sit down and meditate or
contemplate. Every student asks for doing something since he feels
that he has not benefited much out of just the study of Vedanta. This
is only because by action only something can be achieved and not just
by knowledge. If the students got benefit from knowledge as Vedantins
claim then why should they want to do something. Hence we cannot but
conclude that siddhabodhaka vaakyaani aprayojanaani, kaaryabodhaa
vaakyaanii eva saprayojanaani. Both Praabhakara and Bhatta matams
agree with these assertions.

The third point is as follows. These puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s accept with
other aastika that Veda-s are pramaaNam. If all the credit of driving
Buddhi-ism out of India, it actually belongs to the
puurvamiimaa.nsaka. Kumarila Bhatta in fact disguised himself as a
student of Buddha to learn their intricate teachings and used that
knowledge only to defeat them later on their own grounds. For
deceiving his own teacher of Buddhism he later felt guilty and
immolated himself for the sin he has committed. Therefore
puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s accepts vedapramaaNam. What does it mean when we
say Veda is pramaaNam. The popular definition of pramaaNam is:
' anaadhigata abaadhita artha bodhakam pramaaNam' - pramaaNam reveals
something that which is not revealed by other pramaaNam
(anaadhigatam).

If Veda is pramaaNam it should reveal something that is not revealed
by pratyaksha or anumaana or logic not even by science. To be a valid
pramaaNa Veda has to reveal something, which is even beyond the scope
of science (objective). This is what anaadhigatam implies. The second
condition abaadhitam that which is not contradicted by other
pramaaNam. Veda should not reveal something, which contradicts our
pratyaksha pramaaNam. If Veda tells that fire is cold, it is rejected
since it is baadhitam, contradicted by pratyaksha. It should not make
illogical statements even if it is beyond logic. It should not
contradict science either. At the same time it should reveal
something that cannot be revealed by other pramaaNa. Hence it should
be, unrevealed and uncontradicted by other pramaaNam-s. To this
definition the puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s add one more qualification or
condition. The altered definition is anaadhigata abhaadita phalavat
arthabodhakam pramaaNam. Vedantins are not keen but do not reject the
added condition. phalavat means it should be saprayojanam, should be
useful. Hence pramaaNam is that which reveals something which is
useful and unrevealed and uncontradicted by other pramaaNam-s.

Since puurvapakshi-s argue that siddhabodhaka vaakyaani
aprayojanaani, kaaryabodhaka vaakyaani saprayojanaani (statements of
facts are useless and statements of commandments are useful),
applying the new definition of pramaaNa, they conclude that
siddhabodhaka vaakyaani apramaaNaani while kaaryabodhaka vaakyaani
pramaaNaani. That is the former are invalid as pramaaNa since they
are useless, while the latter are valid as they are useful. They
claim all these ideas have been revealed in one important jaimini
suutram which is key suutram. 'aamnaayasya kriyaarthatvaat
aanarthakyam athadarthaanaam' - aamnaayasya means vedasya,
kriyaarthatvaata meaning kaarya bodhakatvaat, statements of
injections being important (because they are useful), aanarthakyam
meaning apramaaNam (invalid referring to all other statements other
than kaarya bodhaka vaakyaani), athadarthaanaam meaning
sidhhabodhakaanaam, statements of facts. In summary it states that
the statements of commandments are valid and statement of facts are
invalid as pramaaNam, since the former is useful and the later is
useless.

The entire j~naanakaaNDam deals with only siddhavastu - talks about
Brahman, talks about sR^ishhTi or creation, talks about aatmaa but it
does not talk about any karma to be performed. The very word j~naana
indicates that it only gives us knowledge. We already established
that kevala j~naanam is aprayojanam or if it cannot be put into
action it is useless. Hence the entire j~naanakaaDam is apramaaNam or
invalid, siddhabodhaka vaakyatvaat. What benefit do I get by knowing
that Brahman is satyam j~naanam and anantam? What benefit do I get
that the five elements were created? What benefit do I get knowing
that there are pa~ncha kosha-s or pa~ncha praaNa-s in me? By mere
knowledge of these, I do not get any benefit, will not put dinner on
my table, will not remove the pain in my back or in the neck, or pay
the skyrocketing doctor's bill. Hence the entire j~naanakaaNDa is
useless. vedosharaaH vedaantaaH - Vedanta is like a desert in an
otherwise fertile land. This is the puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s puurvapaksha.

We will continue in the next post.
-----------------------------------------------
Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From owner-advaita-l at L...
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Subject: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1C
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:42:40 +0530
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Such a beautiful analysis. But it is extremely difficult to read the
Sanskrita (also in some cases Hindi) words written in English. Is it
possible to have some Indian languages programme we can use to post these
verses/ texts in Devanagari? The description can continue to be in English.
Do the Tech-savvies on this list have any solution? It can make our forum
that much more effective.

Regards





"K. Sadananda" <sada at A...> (Mailed by: List for advaita
vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara <ADVAITA-L at b...>)
03/09/2001 07:05 AM EST
Please respond to List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
 <ADVAITA-L at b...>

 Notes on BSB - I-i-4-1C


sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who is ever
auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all the way up to
my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the three
guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of purity who
is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to his lotus feet I
(sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .
 suutra: tat tu samanvayaat.h .


Now The Analysis of the word 'tu':

We will now analyze the word 'tu', which we skipped before for convenience.
It is the most important word of this suutra. This simple looking word 'tu'
received the most elaborate analysis by Bhagavatpada Shankara.

The word 'tu' is used for emphasis. In English it means only or alone. We
have said that Brahman is the subject matter of Vedanta shaastram. By
adding 'tu' Vyasacharya is emphasizing that Brahman alone is the subject
matter of Vedanta shaastra. This is called avadhaaraNam or emphasis.
Indirectly Vyasa is implying that nothing else is the subject matter. Hence
every emphasis involves indirectly a negation of non-essentials. This
exclusion in Sanskrit is called vyaavR^itti - thus every avadhaaraNam
implies a vyaavR^itti. tu shabdhaH vyavR^ityarthaH. Hence Shankara says
'tu' involves puurvapaksha vyaavR^itti artham. By using the word 'tu',
Vyasa is negating all other interpretations, and all other puurvapakshi-s.
Here the puurvapakshi-s include all those who claim that the subject matter
of Vedanta shaastram is other than Brahman. Who are those puurvapaksha-s?
Obviously it includes only those who analyze the Vedanta shaastram. Hence
naastika-s are not of concern here since they do not believe in Veda
pramaaNa. Hence the puurvapaksha-s are the aastika-s, that is those who
accept Veda pramaaNam. There are six aastika darshhanam - saa.nkhya, yoga,
nyaaya, vaisheshhika, puurva miimaa.nsaa and uttaramiimaa.nsa or vedaanta
(see Introductory chapter for details). The first five are the possible
puurvapaksha in relation to Vedanta. Of these we reduced them to three
since saankhya and yoga are practically the same and they are bunched as
one as saa.nkhya-yoga system. Similarly nyaaya and vaisheshhika are almost
the same and together are referred to as nyaaya-vaisheshhika system. Hence
the three puurvapaksha-s; saa.nkhya-yoga, nyaaya-vaisheshika and
puurvamiimaa.nsaa are negated using the word 'tu'. Vyasa has to negate each
one. He considers saa.nkhya-yoga as the most powerful puurvapaksha. Hence
he spends the rest of the first chapter, from fifth to one-hundred & thirty
four, for two tasks; establishing Vedanta that is brahma samanvaya and
negating saa.nkhya-yoga puurvapaksha. Hence the rest of the 130 suutra-s in
this chapter is a commentary on the word 'tu'. He extends this negation of
saa.nkhya-yoga even to the second chapter. The nyaaya-vaisheshhika is not
looked upon as that powerful but only a weak puurvapaksha for refutation.
In the second chapter nyaaya-vaisheshhika is discussed very briefly. In one
suutra Vyasa says it is not at all relevant.

puurvamiimaa.nsaa is only left out. It is the ritualistic section of the
Veda and is analyzed using sutra format by Jaimini maharshi, who was in
fact a disciple of Vyasacharya. There is a bhaashhyam also for this suutra
by shabara swami - shaabara bhaashhyam. Shankara holds this bhaashhyam with
high regard. We normally do not consider the puurvamiimaa.nsaa and
shaarbara bhaashhyam as puurvapaksha at all, since the puurva bhaaga of
Veda-s are relevant and useful since it is a means for dharma, artha and
kaama - dharma artha kaama purushhaartha siddhyarthaM puurvamiimaa.nsaa
atyantam upakaarakam. In addition it is useful for chittashuddhi, for
purification of the mind. Hence it is called dharma shaastram. It is
helpful to obtain the saadhana chatushhTaya sampatti, discussed with
reference to suutra 1. Hence puurvamiimaa.nsaa is not really a
puurvapaksha. But we emphasize that puurvamiimaa.nsaa cannot give moksha.
According to Vedantins, Jaimini as well as Shabara muni also accept this.
However later there were subcommentators who wrote subcommentaries on the
shaabara bhaashhyam and presented the puurvamiimaa.nsaa as a means of
moksha. Subsequently the subcommentators pushed their arguments further to
claim that puurvamiimaa.nsaa alone gives moksha, and uttaramiimaa.nsaa is
utterly useless. Therefore the puurvamiimaa.nsaa as presented by these
subcommentators forms puurvapaksha. Here puurvapaksha does not include
other vedantins such as vishishhTaadvaita and Dvaita but only with
non-vedantins. The difference of opinions among the vedantins in the
interpretation of Brahmasuutra comes under yaadaviiya kalahaM, internal
differences only in interpretations since all vedantins come under one
category as uttaramiimaa.nsaka-s. Here all the puurvapakshins are aastika
anyottaramiimaa.nsaka-s. Vyasacharya is going to negate elaborately the
saa.nkhya-yoga and to some extent the nyaaya-vaisheshhika in the first and
second chapters, since those two were considered important at that time.
Since Vyasa does not discuss the puurvamiimaa.nsaa to that extent, Shankara
uses this opportunity to cover also the puurvamiimaa.nsaa elaborately in
his bhaashhyam under the pretext of the word 'tu', Brahman alone or only.
This is because of the renewed emphasis on puurvamiimaa.nsaa or karmakaanDa
at the time of Shankara, due to the influence of Prabhakara and Kumarila
Bhatta, who were the two influential sub-commentators of the shaabara
bhaashhyam of the Jaiminisuutra-s. The story of the debate between Shankara
and Mandana Misra, the disciple of Kumarila Bhatta is well known. Kumarila
Bhatta's subcommentary is in the form of vartikam or verses known as bhaTTa
vaartikam-s and the philosophy that was expounded based on the
puurvamiimaa.nsaa is called bhaaTTamatam. Similarly Prabhakara's
commentary which is in prose form is called bR^ihatii. There he presents
another version of puurvamiiimaa.nsaa called praabhaakaramatam. Hence
bhaaTTamatam and praabhaakaramatam form the puurvamiimaa.nsaa
puurvapaksha-s for our analysis.

First the discussion of puurvapaksha. Under this we will first discuss the
common views of both matam-s and later point out where they differ. Later
we negate the puurvapaksha using siddhaanta. This is like exercise while
learning atomic theories; first we learn about Rutherford model and then
later we discard it for the better quantum mechanical model. It provides
the glimpse of the logic of the thought that went in the analysis. As noted
in the very introduction of the suutra-s, all this analysis and the study
of Brahmasutra is not necessary for a saadhak for self-realization, but
would help in confirmation of his understanding, particularly when the mind
is still full of doubts about
   the nature of the reality and means to
accomplish the goal.

According to puurvamiima.nsaka-s, the entire Veda or Vedic statements can
be broadly classified into two types. 1) siddha bodhaka vaakyaani or
statements of facts 2) kaarya bodhaka vaakyaani or statements of
commandments persuading one to act, consisting of imperative and potential
moods - kuryaat, kartavyaH, na hantavyaH, etc - statements of injunctions.
Statements of facts will lead one to only knowledge, where as the statement
of commandments or injunctions will lead one to action. They further argue
that since the siddhabodhaka vaakyaani or statement of facts give only
knowledge, they are not much of benefit to us. This is because mere
j~naanam will not help in accomplishing anything. Knowing itself is not an
accomplishment or end in itself. Hence j~naanam does not give any
purushhaartha, it is utterly useless. For example, if I come to know that
there is a heaven; I have only the information about the heaven now. By
knowing that there is a heaven what benefit do I get? In fact it can make
me more miserable because I have now something to compare with. Hence
knowledge does not give any benefit. If you go to a doctor, the doctor
diagnoses and says this is the disease you have. Now I have clear knowledge
of the my disease. Previously I used call it as stomachache but now I call
it with more sophisticated technical name. How does that knowledge relieve
my pain? Knowledge does not give either sukha or sukhapraaptiH or get rid
of pain or duHkha nivR^ittiH. It does not give any purushhaartha - that
involves sukha praapti or duHkha nivR^itti or both. Therefore j~naanam does
not give any benefit. siddhabodhaka vaakyaani aprayojanaani -For example,
aham brahmaasmi - aham brahmaasmi - knowing that how does the problem is
solved. Even after knowing aham brahmaasmi, the headache or stomachache
that one has still remains. The starving pains due to poverty in the house
still remains. One still has to pay for school fees. Did it solve family
problems? Did it solve national problems? Did it solve the problems due to
hunger and poverty in India? Did it solve the war between India and
Pakistan or China? What does one get out of any knowledge particularly the
Vedanta j~naanam? On the other hand kaaryabhodhaka vaakyaani make one to do
something and by doing alone we get some puurushhaartha in the form of
either sukhapraapti or duHkhanivR^itti. Medicine knowledge did not remove
the pains only kaaryam involving taking the medicine relieves the pain.
Similarly knowledge of heaven does not give any benefit.

swarge loke na bhayam ki.ncha naasti,
na tatra tvam na jarayaa bibheti,
ubhe tiirtvaa ashanaayaa pipaase,
shokaatigo modate swargaloke || (KaTha. U. 1-1-12)

Nachiketa says to Yama, the Lord of Death, there is no fear in the heavens,
you (death) are not there to have any effect. No fear of oldage and
disease. No pains due to hunger and thirst. Without any sorrows one enjoys
the heavenly bliss.

The above statements come under siddhabodhaka vaakyam. It says heaven is so
wonderful, etc. By knowing what do I gain. On the other hand by doing a
ritual - jyotishhToma yaga- based on the kaarya bodhaa vaakyam one can go
to heaven. jyotishhTomena swarga kaamo yajeta - which asks one to do
jyotishhToma yaga by which one can attain as purushhaartha the heavens.
Hence puurvapakshi-s assert that all the kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s will lead
to actions which will lead to either sukhapraapti or duHkha niV^itti. Hence
kaaryabodhaka vaakyams are saprayojanaaNi or useful.

In support of their arguments puurvapakshii-s show that many Vedantic
scholars are direct proof for their assertion. They argue that even after
any amount of Vedantic teaching, the student still asks in the end, what
should I do here after? Why they want to do something? They ask - give me a
practical recipe so that I can practice or do. Give me a mantra so that I
can do japam. Now that I know I am Brahman, what should I do now? Enough of
this intellectual analysis and studies of Brahmasutra-s etc will not help.
It is just a waste of time. What we need to do is we need to sit down and
meditate or contemplate. Every student asks for doing something since he
feels that he has not benefited much out of just the study of Vedanta. This
is only because by action only something can be achieved and not just by
knowledge. If the students got benefit from knowledge as Vedantins claim
then why should they want to do something. Hence we cannot but conclude
that siddhabodhaka vaakyaani aprayojanaani, kaaryabodhaa vaakyaanii eva
saprayojanaani. Both Praabhakara and Bhatta matams agree with these
assertions.

The third point is as follows. These puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s accept with other
aastika that Veda-s are pramaaNam. If all the credit of driving Buddhi-ism
out of India, it actually belongs to the puurvamiimaa.nsaka. Kumarila
Bhatta in fact disguised himself as a student of Buddha to learn their
intricate teachings and used that knowledge only to defeat them later on
their own grounds. For deceiving his own teacher of Buddhism he later felt
guilty and immolated himself for the sin he has committed. Therefore
puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s accepts vedapramaaNam. What does it mean when we say
Veda is pramaaNam. The popular definition of pramaaNam is:
' anaadhigata abaadhita artha bodhakam pramaaNam' - pramaaNam reveals
something that which is not revealed by other pramaaNam (anaadhigatam).

If Veda is pramaaNam it should reveal something that is not revealed by
pratyaksha or anumaana or logic not even by science. To be a valid pramaaNa
Veda has to reveal something, which is even beyond the scope of science
(objective). This is what anaadhigatam implies. The second condition
abaadhitam that which is not contradicted by other pramaaNam. Veda should
not reveal something, which contradicts our pratyaksha pramaaNam. If Veda
tells that fire is cold, it is rejected since it is baadhitam, contradicted
by pratyaksha. It should not make illogical statements even if it is beyond
logic. It should not contradict science either. At the same time it should
reveal something that cannot be revealed by other pramaaNa. Hence it should
be, unrevealed and uncontradicted by other pramaaNam-s. To this definition
the puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s add one more qualification or condition. The
altered definition is anaadhigata abhaadita phalavat arthabodhakam
pramaaNam. Vedantins are not keen but do not reject the added condition.
phalavat means it should be saprayojanam, should be useful. Hence pramaaNam
is that which reveals something which is useful and unrevealed and
uncontradicted by other pramaaNam-s.

Since puurvapakshi-s argue that siddhabodhaka vaakyaani aprayojanaani,
kaaryabodhaka vaakyaani saprayojanaani (statements of facts are useless and
statements of commandments are useful), applying the new definition of
pramaaNa, they conclude that siddhabodhaka vaakyaani apramaaNaani while
kaaryabodhaka vaakyaani pramaaNaani. That is the former are invalid as
pramaaNa since they are useless, while the latter are valid as they are
useful. They claim all these ideas have been revealed in one important
jaimini suutram which is key suutram. 'aamnaayasya kriyaarthatvaat
aanarthakyam athadarthaanaam' - aamnaayasya means vedasya, kriyaarthatvaata
meaning kaarya bodhakatvaat, statements of injections being important
(because they are useful), aanarthakyam meaning apramaaNam (invalid
referring to all other statements other than kaarya bodhaka vaakyaani),
athadarthaanaam meaning sidhhabodhakaanaam, statements of facts. In summary
it states that the statements of commandments are valid and statement of
facts are invalid as pramaaNam, since the former is useful and the later is
useless.

The entire j~naanakaaNDam deals with only siddhavastu - talks about
Brahman, talks about sR^ishhTi or creation, talks about aatmaa but it does
not talk about any karma to be performed. The very word j~naana indicates
that it only gives us knowledge. We already established that kevala
j~naanam is aprayojanam or if it cannot be put into action it is useless.
Hence the entire j~naanakaaDam is apramaaNam or invalid, siddhabodhaka
vaakyatvaat. What benefit do I get by knowing that Brahman is satyam
j~naanam and anantam? What benefit do I get that the five elements were
created? What benefit do I get knowing that there are pa~ncha kosha-s or
pa~ncha praaNa-s in me? By mere knowledge of these, I do not get any
benefit, will not put dinner on my table, will not remove the pain in my
back or in the neck, or pay the skyrocketing doctor's bill. Hence the
entire j~naanakaaNDa is useless. vedosharaaH vedaantaaH - Vedanta is like a
desert in an otherwise fertile land. This is the puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s
puurvapaksha.

We will continue in the next post.
-----------------------------------------------
Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623


This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain
privileged or confidential information. If you have received it in error,
please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any other
use of the email by you is

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:39:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>


Thanks - one can do encoding the Sanskrit part using the program
available. Information as I got from Shree Sunder Hattangadi is
http://sanskrit.gde.to/web-interface/
Hari Om!
Sadananda

>Such a beautiful analysis. But it is extremely difficult to read the
>Sanskrita (also in some cases Hindi) words written in English. Is it
>possible to have some Indian languages programme we can use to post these
>verses/ texts in Devanagari? The description can continue to be in English.
>Do the Tech-savvies on this list have any solution? It can make our forum
>that much more effective.
>
>Regards
>
>
--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:17:26 -0500
Subject: What a waste!
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


This verse from the vairAgya shataka accurately describes the lives
of a large number of youths in the world, especially in India which
has a rich cultural heritage that is being lost day by day.
The four puruShArthas - dharma, artha, kAma, and moxa- are well known.
But there is a large population in the world, again especially in India,
which does not lead a fruitful life from any perspective, be it
dharma, artha, kAma, and moxa. Such people do not follow dharma properly;
they do not earn adequate money because they are lazy; they do not enjoy
pleasures of life; and of course, they have no idea of moxa. Their life,
especially their youth, is spent in utterly useless activities which is
neither beneficial to themselves nor others. Even if they do something,
be it in the field of dharma, artha, kAma, or moxa, it is half-hearted
and insincere. They have no "passion" (in a good sense) in anything that
they do. Consequently, the life of such people is a big waste.

What a big tragedy it is when the years of youth are wasted away!

[Animal lovers may find the third line below offensive but bear
in mind that Bhartrihari lived in a different time. Moreover, animals
are *now* more in danger than ever before in history, despite what our
ancestors' interaction with the animal kingdom was!]

nAbhyastA prativAdivR^indadamanI vidyA vinItochitA
khaDgAgraiH karikuMbhapIThadalanairnAkaM na nItaM yashaH |
kAntAkomalapallava-adhara-rasaH pIto na chandrodaye
tAruNyaM gatameva niShphalamaho shUnyAlaye dIpavat.h ||

They did not study (in depth) any vidyA that is suitable for
modest people and that would help them vanquish groups of opponents.
They did not earn fame high enough to reach heaven, by using weapons
powerful enough to tear apart (things such as) the forehead of an elephant.
They did not drink the nectar of tender bud-like lips of a beautiful
lover at moonrise. Alas! Their youth has been wasted away with no
benefit just like a lamp that burns away in an empty (uninhabited)

>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Script OM
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:06:49 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaste,

I have seen certain variations on the character commonly used to depict
'OM'.

For instance (please forgive me here), I sometimes see a 'tail' extending to
the right of the 'three'. and the 'sun and moon' characters are in different
places. Can anyone

>From "Naresh Cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:24:45 -0500
Reply-To: n.cuntoor at l...
Subject: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1C
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Naresh Cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


 Namaskara,
My thoughts exactly.... There is a software called "Baraha" which will enable us to write in Devanagari (actually, it started off as a script for Kannada....hence the name "baraha" which in Kannada means "writing"). It will certainly be a lot easier to read in Devanagari lipi rather than trying to decipher the English words.

Regards,
Naresh
--

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:42:40
 Sachin Chavan wrote:
>Such a beautiful analysis. But it is extremely difficult to read the
>Sanskrita (also in some cases Hindi) words written in English. Is it
>possible to have some Indian languages programme we can use to post these
>verses/ texts in Devanagari? The description can continue to be in English.
>Do the Tech-savvies on this list have any solution? It can make our forum
>that much more effective.
>
>Regards
>



Get 250 color business cards for FREE! at Lycos Mail
http://mail.lycos.com/freemail/vistaprint_index.html

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:33:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: What a waste!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> they do. Consequently, the life of such people is a big waste.

People flounder and fall due to ignorance. They need to be pitied and
protected, convinced and corrected and not condemned and castigated. Will
anyone who knows the bliss of God-Realization waste his life?

Srimad Bhagavatam says that the evil habits of Kali are a blessing in disguise.
 For very soon they reap the bitter fruits of their evil actions (or inactions)
and that will bring them to the path of God.

There has never been a time when there were no evil people, no lazy people.
Nor was there a time when there were not wise men or industrious. It is part
of Ishvara's Leela. The only thing that is under our control is : given the
circumstances how can we redeem ourselves from the shackles of samsAra !! We
have to use the given combination of people, events around us to understand and
KNOW God in them. And having done that, we can offer our loving service for
mankind. Looking back at the history of mankind (millions of years - going by
the purANas) - IS ANYTHING ELSE POSSIBLE AT ALL ?

Nevertheless, yes, we should make good use of this opportunity called life.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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>From Sanjiv Ramachandran <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: 10 Mar 2001 01:06:36 IST
Subject: Re: [What a waste!]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Sanjiv Ramachandran <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Anandji,
 I am sorry if I am sounding angry but your mail has somewhat piqued
me, particularly the part when you 'especially in India'? It is not that the
youths in India are leading wasteful lives and youths in the remaining parts
of the world are leading enlightened lives!! And in any case, we all know the
life led by an average american youth. I am sure the indian youth has a long
way to go in this regard, at least!!
 Sanjiv






Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...> wrote:
This verse from the vairAgya shataka accurately describes the lives
of a large number of youths in the world, especially in India which
has a rich cultural heritage that is being lost day by day.
The four puruShArthas - dharma, artha, kAma, and moxa- are well known.
But there is a large population in the world, again especially in India,
which does not lead a fruitful life from any perspective, be it
dharma, artha, kAma, and moxa. Such people do not follow dharma properly;
they do not earn adequate money because they are lazy; they do not enjoy
pleasures of life; and of course, they have no idea of moxa. Their life,
especially their youth, is spent in utterly useless activities which is
neither beneficial to themselves nor others. Even if they do something,
be it in the field of dharma, artha, kAma, or moxa, it is half-hearted
and insincere. They have no "passion" (in a good sense) in anything that
they do. Consequently, the life of such people is a big waste.

What a big tragedy it is when the years of youth are wasted away!

[Animal lovers may find the third line below offensive but bear
in mind that Bhartrihari lived in a different time. Moreover, animals
are *now* more in danger than ever before in history, despite what our
ancestors' interaction with the animal kingdom was!]

nAbhyastA prativAdivR^indadamanI vidyA vinItochitA
khaDgAgraiH karikuMbhapIThadalanairnAkaM na nItaM yashaH |
kAntAkomalapallava-adhara-rasaH pIto na chandrodaye
tAruNyaM gatameva niShphalamaho shUnyAlaye dIpavat.h ||

They did not study (in depth) any vidyA that is suitable for
modest people and that would help them vanquish groups of opponents.
They did not earn fame high enough to reach heaven, by using weapons
powerful enough to tear apart (things such as) the forehead of an elephant.
They did not drink the nectar of tender bud-like lips of a beautiful
lover at moonrise. Alas! Their youth has been wasted away with no
benefit just like a lamp that burns away in an empty (uninhabited) house!


Anand


____________________________________________________________________
Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:26:32 -0500
Subject: Re: What a waste!
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:33:57 -0800, S. V. Subrahmanian
<svsubrahmanian at Y...> wrote:

>> they do. Consequently, the life of such people is a big waste.
>
>People flounder and fall due to ignorance. They need to be pitied and
>protected, convinced and corrected and not condemned and castigated.

Who is condemning whom here? Sometimes a Guru will appear to be
highly critical of his disciples. But it is only for their improvement.
In fact, I can remember two Gurus, with whom I studied Veda and
Yoga respectively, were particularly quick to "criticize" their
students. But I can assure you I learnt a lot from them. If they
had "pitied and protected" their disciples, the learning curve
would have been impossible for us.

Bhartrihari, whom we should treat as a Guru, is pointing mistakes.
We should not be embarassed by what he says even if it applies to
us! It is like this. The sun gives a lot of light and also heat.
It is hard to separate the two and say "Give us only light but
not heat." Just as it is the nature of the sun to give light, it
is also his nature to emit

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:43:27 -0500
Subject: Re: [What a waste!]
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:06:36 IST, Sanjiv Ramachandran <rsanjiv at U...>
wrote:

>Anandji,
> I am sorry if I am sounding angry but your mail has somewhat piqued
>me, particularly the part when you 'especially in India'? It is not that
the
>youths in India are leading wasteful lives and youths in the remaining
parts
>of the world are leading enlightened lives!! And in any case, we all know
the
>life led by an average american youth. I am sure the indian youth has a
long
>way to go in this regard, at least!!

The Indian youth has already gone a long way, if you consider where
he originally comes from!

It is not a question of American vs Indian. I think you have
misinterpreted my message.
Please see Ken Knight's message yesterday where he said, " Here in
England, and it is probably the same in USA, there is a 'hamburger
generation' of young Asians who know nothing of the Asian culture."
I only extended this to apply to a lot of Indian youth in India.
Note that I did not say that all Indian youths are so. And I did
not have any particular person(s) in

>From "Naresh Cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 15:31:12 -0500
Reply-To: n.cuntoor at l...
Subject: Re: [What a waste!]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Naresh Cuntoor" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


 Namaskara,
This anecdote comes to my mind.... An English leader (I forget who) once said, " Ah! What has become of the youth of today. Can we hope for a better tomorrow looking at these youngsters? The answer, sadly is NO!" But do you know when this was said? It was way back in the early 1800's! So I suppose, every generation will look upon its successors as a terrible waste. This is not to say that we (the youngsters of today) are doing anything to contradict the assumptions of the elders....
Secondly, I cannot quite comprehend why, at the drop of a hat, we run to compare ourselves with the Americans?! Each culture has its pluses and minuses. And every comparison that we make will have to be in the light of the differences in upbringing, differences in teh existential conditions and so on. So it seems to me that it is quite a wasteful exercise trying to compare ourselves with the Americans and saying we are better or worse than them.
Further, extrapolating on the first point, should we stop and consider the contributions of our elder generation, of how they led their lives, of how their time as youth was spent? What answers would such a soul-searching throw-up? So, rather than criticizing, wouldn't it make more sense to provide constructive suggestions?

Regards,
Naresh
--

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:06:36
 Sanjiv Ramachandran wrote:
>Anandji,
> I am sorry if I am sounding angry but your mail has somewhat piqued
>me, particularly the part when you 'especially in India'? It is not that the
>youths in India are leading wasteful lives and youths in the remaining parts
>of the world are leading enlightened lives!! And in any case, we all know the
>life led by an average american youth. I am sure the indian youth has a long
>way to go in this regard, at least!!
> Sanjiv
>
>
>
>
>
>



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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:09:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Script OM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Bell, Gregg wrote:

> Namaste,
>
> I have seen certain variations on the character commonly used to depict
> 'OM'.
>

It's probably just artistic license. Although the Devanagari script is
mostly used for Sanskrit texts nowadays many other scripts have been used.
there is nothing special about the actual form of the glyph for omkar. In
general all renditions will have the three parts ("three", "tail", and
chandrabindu) because om is a composite of a-u-m.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:09:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Conversation with a 5 year old.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Savithri Devaraj wrote:

First of all I would like to say that you are blessed to have a wonderful
son like this and he is blessed to have a mother like you. It is for this
reason that manusmrti says that as much respect as should be given to the
guru, 100 times as much should be given to the father and 1000 times as much
to the mother as they are the first gurus.

> So remember, kids are very
> impressionable. We, atleast I, tend to think they may not get all that I
> am saying, but I say it anyway. They have great faith in what you as
> parents say. Also, the earlier you start them on these things, the
> better.
>

I've seen a lot of people from the very sophisticated to those from
humble, rural backgrounds interacting with their children and the one
factor that makes the real difference between whether they will continue
our traditions or not is the example of the parents. Children have a keen
sense of hypocracy. It is no use lecturing at them about how great Indian
philosophy and culture is if you are not prepared to follow it yourself.

> Even if one parent gets influenced by this and talks more with their
> children, it has been worth typing this in. I feel very fortunate that I
> had a lot of good influence from my parents and grandparents when I was
> growing up. I would be extremely happy if my kids turn out even half as
> aware of their Spirit, especially growing up abroad in these trobled
> times.
>

As your son grows older he will ask more questions and a time may come
when you run out of answers. But that's ok, because of the firm
foundation you have given him, by that time he will have the will and
energy to pursue the answers for himself. (We may even see him on the
list in a couple of years! :-) How do I know this? Because it's my own
life story. When I was little my mother would make us say a few shlokas
every night. And she would buy us Amar Chitra Katha books and video
cassettes etc. My parents never forced us to do anything but just showed
us by their own example how much fun it was to do it. It continued on
that low level till I became a teenager and started thinking about the
deeper questions of life. They answered my questions as well as they
could and when they couldn't they had the courage to say "I don't know"
instead of making up some bs and helped me find people who could give me
answers. It seems so trivial now but everything I am today I owe to those
small actions of long ago.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:01:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: [What a waste!]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: ken knight <hilken_98 at Y...>


Namaste,
May I start from the principle that the Self is beyond
heat and cold, unaffected by change. There is nothing
to be realised, merely a coming out of that which we
are not.Ignorance falls away as the Self reveals
Itself to Itself in Itself. Where then lies the
waste?
 The teaching of the Truth is available at all times
and those who are ready and able to hear will do so at
the point in their lives when they are ready to serve
that Truth.

It is true that every generation looks to its youth
and fears for the future. As a youth in the UK I
declaimed the Empire to the horror of my parents, I am
sure that the US government would not let me anywhere
near their shores even today for my protests against
their military action in Viet Nam and the many letters
of protest that I wrote them.
Now at 60 I look around me at the pregnant mothers and
pose the question,'Would I like that person for a
mother?'
I have yet to answer in the positive.
But all this is observation in duality and ignorance.
I am the older generation and I am the younger
generation. I am that pregnant mother. I am the
slothful youth...or more accurately, I am the essence
of all these things. Through 'neti, neti' I can turn
from the duality of superimposition and begin to draw
closer to the Reality that is all-pervading. This
drawing closer is in appearance only for even
proximity is itself but a final veil. Gradually the
'na' of the 'Neti' can be dropped and the affirmation
of the creation as the full and glorious manifestation
of the Absolute can be stated with 'iti,iti'. The
waste is not to follow such a path when we hear of it
and therefore fail our children by not teaching them
correctly.
Peace and Happiness
Ken Knight

--- Sanjiv Ramachandran <rsanjiv at U...> wrote:
> Anandji,
> I am sorry if I am sounding angry but your
> mail has somewhat piqued
> me, particularly the part when you 'especially in
> India'? It is not that the
> youths in India are leading wasteful lives and
> youths in the remaining parts
> of the world are leading enlightened lives!! And in
> any case, we all know the
> life led by an average american youth. I am sure the
> indian youth has a long
> way to go in this regard, at least!!
>
> Sanjiv
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...> wrote:
> This verse from the vairAgya shataka accurately
> describes the lives
> of a large number of youths in the world, especially
> in India which
> has a rich cultural heritage that is being lost day
> by day.
> The four puruShArthas - dharma, artha, kAma, and
> moxa- are well known.
> But there is a large population in the world, again
> especially in India,
> which does not lead a fruitful life from any
> perspective, be it
> dharma, artha, kAma, and moxa. Such people do not
> follow dharma properly;
> they do not earn adequate money because they are
> lazy; they do not enjoy
> pleasures of life; and of course, they have no idea
> of moxa. Their life,
> especially their youth, is spent in utterly useless
> activities which is
> neither beneficial to themselves nor others. Even
> if they do something,
> be it in the field of dharma, artha, kAma, or moxa,
> it is half-hearted
> and insincere. They have no "passion" (in a good
> sense) in anything that
> they do. Consequently, the life of such people is a
> big waste.
>
> What a big tragedy it is when the years of youth are
> wasted away!
>
> [Animal lovers may find the third line below
> offensive but bear
> in mind that Bhartrihari lived in a different time.
> Moreover, animals
> are *now* more in danger than ever before in
> history, despite what our
> ancestors' interaction with the animal kingdom was!]
>
> nAbhyastA prativAdivR^indadamanI vidyA vinItochitA
> khaDgAgraiH karikuMbhapIThadalanairnAkaM na nItaM
> yashaH |
> kAntAkomalapallava-adhara-rasaH pIto na chandrodaye
> tAruNyaM gatameva niShphalamaho shUnyAlaye dIpavat.h
> ||
>
> They did not study (in depth) any vidyA that is
> suitable for
> modest people and that would help them vanquish
> groups of opponents.
> They did not earn fame high enough to reach heaven,
> by using weapons
> powerful enough to tear apart (things such as) the
> forehead of an elephant.
> They did not drink the nectar of tender bud-like
> lips of a beautiful
> lover at moonrise. Alas! Their youth has been wasted
> away with no
> benefit just like a lamp that burns away in an empty
> (uninhabited) house!
>
>
> Anand
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________
> Get free email and a permanent address at
http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1


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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:20:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1C
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Sachin Chavan wrote:

> Such a beautiful analysis. But it is extremely difficult to read the
> Sanskrita (also in some cases Hindi) words written in English. Is it
> possible to have some Indian languages programme we can use to post these
> verses/ texts in Devanagari?

This is something that really annoys me. India provides computer talent
to the entire world but we still don't have a good standard way to write
in our own languages. Meanwhile you can get all sorts of fully localized
applications for minor languages like Thai or Vietnamese. Many people on
the list use the ITRANS system Sadananda mentioned. And there are
different proprietary programs like the one Naresh mentioned. But there
needs to be a standard for these various programs to interoperate. The
Indian government came up with something called ISCII but its a technical
abomination and some South Indians have complained it is inadequate for
their languages. There's an international standard ISO646 or unicode
which is more promising. It is supported by all major operating systems
and has full support for Indian languages but there still needs to be
software (mail programs, web browsers etc.) to make use of it.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:06:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Conversation with a 5 year old.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


> guru, 10 times as much should be given to the father and 100 times as much
> to the mother as they are the first gurus.

upAdhyAyan dasham AchArya: AchAryAt shatam pitA
pitrun sahasram mAtu: garishyati ... (manusmriti)

An Acharya, (a teacher who teaches the pupil purely for the purpose of
enlightening) is 10 times superior to an upAdhayapaka (sub-teacher, who teaches
for a salary).

A father is 100 times superior to such an AchArya.

A mother is 1000 times superior to such a father.

Please interpret superior in the in the sense of deserving respect, priority
and position of pre-eminence in one's heart.

Thanks Sri Jaldharji for highlighting this point. My personal opinion has
always been that the survival of sanAtana dharma owes it maximum gratitude to
two things - guru-shishya parampara and the role of good mothers in homes.

Smt. Savitri-ji, my good wishes to your children. Your blessings will carry
them through all the difficulties. The following story comes through oral
tradition. DhritarAshtra asks Krishna as to why he was compassionate to the
Pandavas and why did he not cast his merciful glance on the Kauravas. Krishna
replied that they who were not even fit for the merciful glance of Gandhari
their own mother (she was blindfolded), how can they ever win the Grace of God?

May God bless your children.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:29:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Pride
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Sri KenNight-ji wrote:

It may seem strange to some that as an Englishman I find
myself teaching Vedanta to young Asians.

I had this experience a couple of years ago. My friend, his wife and I went to
a book shop. On the way we met an (white) American. He was a long time
practitioner of Transcendental Meditation. He was a long time friend of mine.
We had an informal chat after which we parted. I told my friend and his wife
that he had practiced it for quite long and can teach if interested. My
friend's wife remarked that she cannot convince herself to learn meditation
from an American.

Yet, when I went to book shop, I came to know that apart from the fact that
there is a God, she did not know anything about Hindu philosophy. I suggested
that she start by reading a simple English translation of Srimad Bhagavatam.
She said that "why not Rig Veda" ? I said that it was not possible to read
without help. She for some reason thought that because she was born in India,
Rig Veda would be a child's play for her. Anyway she enquired the price and it
was $25.00 (twenty five dollars). She felt it was too expensive and returned
it promptly to the book shelf.

I was amazed at the whole sequence of events. Here is a list of places where
many of my fellow Indians go wrong:

1. Knowledge or Love of God is not the monopoly of anybody.

2. It is certainly a great gift to be born in India, only if you imbibe the
bhAratIya samkruti, otherwise what are we talking about ?

3. Just because one is born in India, does not mean the wisdom of the
scriptures would naturally dawn on one's mind. Effort is needed. Help might
be available in plenty in India, but effort cannot be discounted.

4. Whereever we find knowledge/love of we have to learn to be humble. Just
because somebody else has mastered what you could have at your home turf, does
not mean his knowledge/skill is cheap.

My current Sanskrit teacher is a white American. I have humbly submitted
myself to my teacher and I would not mind touching my teacher's feet for my
teacher knows more than me and is teaching me. (But I don't, just to avoid
attracting attention from others or creating an impression of being unduly
humble).

The incident above happened 2 years ago. I have moved forward in a learning a
lot in the last 2 years (spiritual subjects). She is exactly where we parted
that day. That is the price of being proud.

Regards.
S. V. Subrahmanian.

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>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:19:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Script OM
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


According to Swami Dayananda Saravati:

OM is a sound-form. It does not have a corresponding physical symbol or form.
Different languages have different ways of writing OM. Even if one sees the
way OM is written in Indian languages it is different from the one popularly
known and described below. There is license in the assignment of a symbol/form
for OM, because it is primarily a sound. The description below is more
consensual rather than mystical.

I understood it further as:

The musical notes "sa, re, ga, ma ..." etc are notes - vocal sounds. Their
form or pictorial representation can be anything. Like that.

--- "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, Bell, Gregg wrote:
>
> > Namaste,
> >
> > I have seen certain variations on the character commonly used to depict
> > 'OM'.
> >
>
> It's probably just artistic license. Although the Devanagari script is
> mostly used for Sanskrit texts nowadays many other scripts have been used.
> there is nothing special about the actual form of the glyph for omkar. In
> general all renditions will have the three parts ("three", "tail", and
> chandrabindu) because om is a composite of a-u-m.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>


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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:12:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Pride
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:29:32 -0800, S. V. Subrahmanian
<svsubrahmanian at Y...> wrote:

>Here is a list of places where
> many of my fellow Indians go wrong:
>
>1. Knowledge or Love of God is not the monopoly of anybody.
>
>2. It is certainly a great gift to be born in India, only if you imbibe
the
>bhAratIya samkruti, otherwise what are we talking about ?
>
Absolutely right.

>3. Just because one is born in India, does not mean the wisdom of the
>scriptures would naturally dawn on one's mind. Effort is needed. Help
might
>be available in plenty in India, but effort cannot be discounted.
>
This is where many, many people get thrown out at the wayside. There
is no steadfastness, no regularity, no systematic effort, no "passion",
and plain laziness. I have seen this personally in Vedic classes I attended.
Several students show up late, or don't show up at all for several weeks.
A few of them attended one class and that was it.
One student even had the nerve of not attending our homa practices at
all and showing up on the day of the homa, nicely dressed and ready to
participate! Another student was so lazy to even learn to read the
Devanagari script version of the mantras. He said he could only read
Telugu script and he would wait for someone to bring a Telugu script
version of the Vedic mantras and he ended up dropping out from the
classes indefinitely. These are the examples I have seen among
students of just one Veda teacher. Imagine how many more would be
in classes conducted by other Gurus.

>4. Whereever we find knowledge/love of we have to learn to be humble.
Just
>because somebody else has mastered what you could have at your home turf,
does
>not mean his knowledge/skill is cheap.
>
Correct.

>My current Sanskrit teacher is a white American. I have humbly submitted
>myself to my teacher and I would not mind touching my teacher's feet for my
>teacher knows more than me and is teaching me. (But I don't, just to avoid
>attracting attention from others or creating an impression of being unduly
>humble).
>
>The incident above happened 2 years ago. I have moved forward in a
learning a
>lot in the last 2 years (spiritual subjects). She is exactly where we
parted
>that day. That is the price of being proud.

I always felt that the proverb "Half-knowledge is dangerous" to be
an accurate description of such people. Actually, they have much much
less than even half the knowledge and try to cover it up with all kinds
of mumbo-jumbo. It is easy to fool Americans and others who don't know
anything about the subject with this mumbo-jumbo, so there seems to be
a way to get by with such "half-knowledge" and even thrive on it as is
shown by the large number of fraudulent "flying" swami's who are
churned out by

>From Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:32:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Are we sages? No!
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vivek Anand Ganesan <v_ganesan at Y...>


Many thanks to ShrI Anand-ji and ShrI Vishal-ji for their
replies.

-Vivek.

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>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:38:55 -0500
Subject: Negativity
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


In the sixteenth chapter of the gItA and also elsewhere, the positive
characteristics or those of devas and the negative characteristics
or those of the asuras and rAxasas are mentioned. One might wonder
"why does the Lord talk about such bad qualities such as hypocrisy,
arrogance, anger, etc. of the demoniac and further describe their
nature to Arjuna, that too in such a sacred scripture as the gItA?
Should He not be only talking about positive characteristics, take
a positive approach to teach Arjuna?"

The answer to this is found in Shankara's commentary, introduction
to the sixteenth chapter, where he says that the positive/divine
qualities are to be accepted by us whereas the negative/demoniac
qualities are to be rejected. The Lord Himself makes this clear
in the 5th verse, saying that the divine qualities enable one to
be liberated while the demoniac qualities cause bondage.

It is good to be aware of the positive things that we should
strive for or cherish. At the same time, we should be aware of
what NOT to do, what to avoid. Detailed stories in the epics
and other sources about demons, hypocrites, etc. are only
meant for teaching us whom NOT to emulate, to avoid the mistakes
that are pointed out. So, in the vairAgya shataka too, the author
points out/criticizes the bad qualities that are commonly found
in society with a view of teaching us NOT to repeat the same.
Such teachings should be taken in the right

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:21:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Conversation with a 5 year old.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Fri, 9 Mar 2001, S. V. Subrahmanian wrote:

> > guru, 10 times as much should be given to the father and 100 times as much
> > to the mother as they are the first gurus.
>
> upAdhyAyan dasham AchArya: AchAryAt shatam pitA
> pitrun sahasram mAtu: garishyati ... (manusmriti)
>
> An Acharya, (a teacher who teaches the pupil purely for the purpose of
> enlightening) is 10 times superior to an upAdhayapaka (sub-teacher, who teaches
> for a salary).
>
> A father is 100 times superior to such an AchArya.
>
> A mother is 1000 times superior to such a father.
>
> Please interpret superior in the in the sense of deserving respect, priority
> and position of pre-eminence in one's heart.
>

Thanks for the correction, I was quoting from memory and garbled it a bit.
May I offer a small correction to your correction? :) upAdhyAya is not
derived from upa-adhyaya but upAdhi + i~n . one who has passed an
"upAdhi" or test. So you can say that an upadhyaya is one who knows the
theory and has got the certificate but an acharya on top of that has put
the knowledge into practice. (achara = practice.) Manusmrti also has the
following shloka (2:141) just before the one you quoted

ekadeshaM tu vedasya veda~ngAnyapi vA punaH |
yo'dhyApayati vrttyarthamupAdhyAyaH sa uchyate ||

He is caled an upAdhyAya if he teaches one part of the Vedas [such as only
enough to do nityakarmas] or vedangas [such as a maharaj you hire for a
particular ceremony or a teacher of vyAkaraNa etc.] or who teaches just to
earn a living.

In contrast the guru teaches the whole Veda along with its angas and
meaning and for the sake of knowledge not just a livelyhood.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:50:09 -0500
Subject: ASR- Please help
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


Please see the information on the Academy of Sanskrit Research at:
http://www.mysoreonline.com/html/melkoteacademy.html
http://vedavid.org/ASR/

The Director of the Academy, Prof. MA Laksmi Tatachar, is a very
unassuming and friendly person. I spoke to him a few years ago,
when I was visiting India, about my work in Navya Nyaya and its
relevance to information representation and manipulation in computers.
He told me that the Academy had a number of kroDapatras or manuscripts
on Navya Nyaya, but there are not many who study them anymore. That is
a different story.

What is relevant to the tech savvy people on this list is that the
Academy is doing several computer-based projects and even has a
Computer Lab. If you are going to India, please try to visit Melkote,
the home of the Academy and try to donate something in the form
of relevant hardware, software, or your professional services to the
Academy. Please contact the Director MAL Tatachar in advance of your
visit. The contact info appears on the web pages mentioned

>From "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:02:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: ASR- Please help
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "S. V. Subrahmanian" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Can we forward this to our friends? Somebody might be interested in helping.
Please let us know if it is ok.

--- Anand Hudli <anandhudli at H...> wrote:
> Please see the information on the Academy of Sanskrit Research at:
> http://www.mysoreonline.com/html/melkoteacademy.html
> http://vedavid.org/ASR/
>
> The Director of the Academy, Prof. MA Laksmi Tatachar, is a very
> unassuming and friendly person. I spoke to him a few years ago,
> when I was visiting India, about my work in Navya Nyaya and its
> relevance to information representation and manipulation in computers.
> He told me that the Academy had a number of kroDapatras or manuscripts
> on Navya Nyaya, but there are not many who study them anymore. That is
> a different story.
>
> What is relevant to the tech savvy people on this list is that the
> Academy is doing several computer-based projects and even has a
> Computer Lab. If you are going to India, please try to visit Melkote,
> the home of the Academy and try to donate something in the form
> of relevant hardware, software, or your professional services to the
> Academy. Please contact the Director MAL Tatachar in advance of your
> visit. The contact info appears on the web pages mentioned above.
>
> Anand


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>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:37:52 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiyam]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiyam
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:55:55 +0800
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Reply-To: advaitin at yahoogroups.com
To: "advaitin at yahoogroups.com" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>
CC: Kripa Sridhar <polsridh at n...>, Murthy <minmini at e...>



OM Namo Vaasudevaaya.

Dashakam 100
Shlokam 3

 hR^dyam
puurNa-anukampa-aarNava-mR^du-laharii-cancala-bhruu-vilaasaiH
 aaniila-snigdha-pakshhma-aavali-parilasitam netra-yugmam
vibho te |
 saandra-cchaayam
vishaala-aruNa-kamala-dala-aakaaram-aamugdha-taaram
 kaaruNya-aaloka-liila-shishirita-bhuvanam kshhipyataam
mayi-anaathe ||


After the eye- catching coiffure crowning the head, and the handsome
forehead
resembling the young crescent moon, the poet goes on to describe the
eyes of the
divine form that he is seeing in front of him.

O! all pervading Lord ! (he vibho)
Thy (te) pair of eyes (netra yugmam) are like an ocean (aarNava) of
infinite compassion
( puurNa anukampa).
The gentle movements of the eyebrows (cancala bhruu vilaasa) resemble
the
 gentle waves (mR^du laharii) on that ocean.
 The beauty of the eyes is enhanced (parilasitam) by rows (aavali)of
eyelashes
 (pakshhma) which are glistening (snigdha) with a bluish tinge
(aaniila).

 The lustrous (saandra-cchaayam) eyes are long and broad (vishaala) and
are
 shaped like(aakaara) pink (aruNa) lotus petals (kamala dala ). The
Pupils
of your eyes have an almost intoxicating effect (aamugdha taaram)- they
are
 so charming that they make me forget my surroundings ! I am as if
hypnotised !
[this interptretation of the word aamugdha-taaram is what occurred to me

as I was writing this - scholars may please pardon me if it is
considered
inappropriate ].

The world (bhuvanam) is cooled (shishiritam) [meaning the people who
are tormented by the heat of samsara find solace] by the compassionate

glances (kaaruNya aaloka) from your eyes. This is no strain on you .
It is
only a sport (liilaa) for you. I beg of you to throw (kshhipyataam)
your merciful glances on me (mayi) too. I am an orphan (anaatha) . I
have no
refuge other than you. So please look at me with compassion and relieve
me
of my sufferings, Guruvaayuurappa !


NOTE: Just to remind ourselves. The words prabhu and vibhu are
commonly
used referring to iishvara. Prabhu refers to his all- powerfulness--
omnipotentence-
sarva-shakti-mat-tvam. Vibhu refers to his all- pervasiveness --
omnipresence-
sarva-vyaapi-tvam. I do not recollect a similar crisp word indicating
omniscience-
sarvajnatvam. Can some member of the list help me, please ?


Sarve bhadraaNi pashyantu.

V.M.Sundaram



Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of
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>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:40:23 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: NaaraayaNiiyam - 100.4]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: NaaraayaNiiyam - 100.4
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:03:26 +0800
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
To: "advaitin at yahoogroups.com" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>
CC: Kripa Sridhar <polsridh at n...>, Murthy <minmini at e...>

06mar01

OM Namo Vaasudevaaya
Dashakam 100
Shlokam 4


 Uttungollasi-naasam hari-maNi-mukura-prollasad-gaNDapaalii-
 vyaalolat-karNa-paasha-ancita-makara-maNii-kuNDala-dvandva-diipram |
 unmiilad-danta-pangkti-spurad-aruNatara-cchaya-bimba-adharaantaH-
 priiti-prasyandi-smita-madhurataram vaktram-udbhaasataam me ||


[ ASIDE : Do not be discouraged by the long , compound words which
are
formidable sounding . Once you get the hang of it all by patient
word by word analysis , you will feel the joy of poetry mingling
with bhakti. Please continue reading.]

The poet ends the stanza with the prayer: vaktram udbhaasataam me
(may your face always shine before me) !

What are the attractive features of the face which he seeks to capture
for
ever in his mind's eye ?

 1. The prominent and attractive nose ( Uttunga- ullasi-
naasam).


 2. hari-maNi-mukura-prollasad-gaNDapaalii-

The cheeks (gaNDapaalii) shine (prollasat) like mirrors (mukura)
made of
sapphire (hari-maNi).


 3.
vyaalolat-karNa-paasha-ancita-makara-maNii-kuNDala-dvandva-diipram |

 A pair of bejewelled ear ornaments (maNii- kuNDala-dvandvam)
 shaped like fish (makara) dangling (vyaalolat) from the earlobes
(karNa-paasha-ancita) make the face radiant (diipram).


4.
unmiilad-danta-pangkti-spurad-aruNatara-cchaya-bimba-adharaantaH-
 priiti-prasyandi-smita-madhurataram vaktram-udbhaasataam
me ||


The lips (adhara) are deep red (aruNa-tara-cchaaya) like *bimba*
fruits
[akin to cherries ?]. Your mild smile (manda-smita) is like a stream
of Love
(priiti-prasyandi) flowing between your lips. It reveals (unmiilat)
between the parted cherrylike lips (bimbaadhara-antaH) shining
(sphurat)
rows (pangkti) of teeth (danta). This makes your face extremely
charming (madhura-taram).

May this charming face (madhura-taram vaktram) shine for ever
(udbhaasataam)
in my mind (me).



Sarve bhadraaNi

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:40:59 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.5]
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.5
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 16:41:31 +0800
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
To: "advaitin at yahoogroups.com" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>
CC: Kripa Sridhar <polsridh at n...>, Murthy <minmini at e...>



08mar01


OM Namo vaasudevaaya
Dashakam 100
Shlokam 5


baahu-dvandvena ratnojjvala-valaya-bhR^taa shoNa-paaNi-pravaale- *1
nopaattam veNu-naaliim prasR^ta- nakha-
mayuukha-angulii-sanga-shaaraam |
kR^tvaa vaktra-aravinde sumadhura-vikasat-raagam-udbhaavyamaanaiH
shabda-brahma-amR^tai-*2 stvam shishirita bhuvanaiH sinca me
karNa-viithiim ||

*1 pravaalena- upaattam *2 amR^taiH-tvam


Again we get shishirita-bhuvana - by which the worlds are cooled.
This time it refers to shabda-brahma-amR^taiH -- drops of the nectar
of Brahman
in the form of Sound itself.

 Your two hands (baahu-dvandva) are adorned with bracelets
(valaya-bhR^taa) shining with gems (ratnojjvala). The flute
(veNu-naalii)
 is held (upaatta) in your palm (paaNi) which is red (shoNa)
like (coral) . The finger nails (nakha) spread (prasR^ta)
multicoloured
rays (mayuukhaH). So the flute which is in contact with your fingers
(angulii-sanga) also looks multicoloured (shaaraa) [reflecting the
coloured
rays from the nails].

Placing (kR^tvaa) the flute on your lotus-like mouth
(vaktra-aravinda)
you produce very sweet melodies (sumadhura-vikasat-raagam). It is
like the flow (udbhaavyamaana) of the nectar of Shabda-Brahman
(shabda-brahma-amR^ta) which brings solace to tormented souls
(shishirita bhuvana).
I beg of you, O lord, please drench (sinca) my ears (karNa-viithiim)
with that nectar.


Bhadram karNebhiH shR^Nuyaama devaaH | {shlokam 5}
Bhadram pashyema akshabhir yajatraaH || {shlokam

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:41:43 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.6]
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.6
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:03:07 +0800
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
To: "advaitin at yahoogroups.com" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>
CC: Kripa Sridhar <polsridh at n...>, Murthy <minmini at e...>


08mar01

OM namo Vaasudevaaya
Dashakam 100
Shlokam 6



utsarpat-kausthubha shriitatibhir-aruNitam
 komalam kaNtha-desham

vakshhaH shriivatsa-ramyam
 tarala-tara- samuddiipra-haara-prataanam |

naanaa-varNa-prasuunaavali-kisalayiniim
 vanya-maalaam vilolal *1

lolambaam lambamaanaam-urasi tava
 tathaa bhaavaye ratna-maalaam ||


* vilolat + lolambaam = vilolallolambaam


I meditate (bhaavaye) on thy shapely and delicate neck
(komalam kaNtha- desham)which is reddened (aruNitam)
by the rays of lustre (shrii-tatibhih) radiating upwards(utsarpat)
from the Kausthubha jewel which adorns your neck.

On your chest (vakshhaH) made attractive by the Srivatsa mark,
there are a number of pearl necklaces (haara-prataanam)
which are constantly shaking (tarala-tara) and dazzling (samuddiipra).
and also (tathaa) necklaces of gems (ratna-maala).

A garland of forest flowers (vanya maalaa), made of tender sprouts
(kisalayinii) and rows of flowers (prasuuna-aavali) of various colours
(naanaa-varNa) , round which bees (lolamba) are hovering (vilolat) ,
is dangling (lambamaanaa) on your chest (tava urasi).

May this divine form of yours be firmly imprinted in my consciousness.


[ASIDE :
1. According to the Amarakosha , the word haara is to be used only
for a necklace made of pearls like muktaahaara. A garland made of gems,

or flowers, is called a maalaa . Ratna- maalaa, pushhpa-maalaa, etc.]

2. Kausthubha is a gem that came out of the ocean at the time of
amR^ta mathana.
3. Srivatsam is a kind of mole or mark (made by twirling hair) on
the chest of

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:42:17 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiyam 100.7]
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiyam 100.7
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:27:09 +0800
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Reply-To: advaitin at yahoogroups.com
To: "advaitin at yahoogroups.com" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>
CC: Kripa Sridhar <polsridh at n...>, Murthy <minmini at e...>



09mar01

OM Namo Vaasudevaaya

Dashakam 100
Shlokam 7


ange pancanga-raagair-atishaya-vikasat-
 saurabha-akR^shhTa-lokam

liina-aneka-trilokii-vitatim-api kR^shaam
 bibhratam madhyavallim |

shakra-ashma-nyasta-taptojjvala-kanaka-nibham
 piita-celam dadhaanam

dhyaayaamo diipta-rashmi-sphuTa-maNi-rashanaa-
 kingkiNii-maNDitam tvaam ||



Now comes the description of the torso.

anga-raaga means a perfume for the body. Usually
five unguents are used -- kumkuma, agaru, kastuuri,
rocanaa, and haricandana. They are called as
pancaanga-raagaas. The wonderful (atishaya) fragrance
(saurabha) from these perfumes applied to the body(ange)
 of the Lord, spreading far and wide (vikasat) attracts
the whole world (aakR^shhTa loka).

Countless (aneka) groups (vitati) of worlds (trilokii)
are merged inside you (liina). Their weight is to be supported
(bibhrata) by your waist . And yet your creeper-like waist
(madhya vallii) is so slender(kR^sham) !

The yellow garment (piita-celam) you are wearing (dadhaana)
looks like(nibha) shining (ujjvala) molten (tapta) gold (kanaka)
poured (nyastam) upon a rock of sapphire (shakra-ashma).
[The Lord's body is blue in clour like sapphire, and the shining
yellow garment is like molten gold poured over it ]

You are wearing a waist-ornament (rashanaa) which shines (sphuta)
by the brilliant rays (diipta-rashmi) from the gems (maNi) with
which it is studded. It is also adorned (maNDitam) by tiny tinkling
bells (kingkiNii) .

We meditate (dhyaayaamaH) on you (tvaam) in this form.


ASIDE:
The expression liina-aneka-trilokii-vitati used in this shlokam
is an echo of the incident where, on being accused of eating mud,
KR^shhNa opens his mouth to prove his innocence to Yashodaa.
There in His open mouth Yashodaa sees the entire universe
including herself : saa tatra daDR^she vishvam ... saha aatmaanam..
( Bhagavatam 8.37)

In NaaraayaNiiyam Dashakam 46, shlokam 9, Bhattatiri describes the
same incident by saying that Yashodaa saw in KR^ishhNaa's open
mouth , all the worlds, including KR^shhNa himself with open mouth
inside which again all the worlds were seen along with KR^shhNa
with open mouth ... and so on ad infinitum !

Gitaa refers to *yo maam pashyati sarvatra , sarvam ca mayi pashyati *.

(he who sees me everywhere, and sees everything in me)
Here is the bhaava of *sarvam ca mayi pashyati* .

Sarve bhavantu sukhinaH sarve santu niraamayaaH.

V.M.Sundaram


Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of
Atman and Brahman.
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>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:42:48 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: [Fwd: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiym 100.8]
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiym 100.8
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:33:04 +0800
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Reply-To: advaitin at yahoogroups.com
To: "advaitin at yahoogroups.com" <advaitin at yahoogroups.com>
CC: Kripa Sridhar <polsridh at n...>, Murthy <minmini at e...>



12mar01


OM namo vaasudevaaya
Dashakam 100
Shlokam 8



uruu caaruu tavoruu ghana-masR^Na-rucau
 citta-corau ramaayaaH

vishva-kshhobham vishangkya dhruvam-anisham-ubahu
 piita-cela-avR^ta-angau |

aanamraaNaam purastan-nyasana-dhR^ta
 samastartha-paalii-samudga

cchaayam jaanu-dvayam ca krama-pR^thula-manojne
 ca janghe nishheve ||



Your thighs (uuru) are well-shaped (caaruu) , thick (ghana), charming
to behold (masR^Na rucau). and steal the heart (citta corau) of
Lakshmi
(ramaayaaH). Your two thighs (tava ubhau uuru ) are always (anisham)
covered by the yellow cloth around the waist (piita-cela-aavR^ta-angau)
,
as if (dhruvam) fearing (vishangkya) that they will excite
the whole world (vishva-kshobham) [if left uncovered] !

Your two knees (jaanu-dvayam) look like (cchaayam) caskets (samudga)
containing(dhR^ta) a collection (paalii) of all the objects desired
(samasta-artha)
by devotees who prostrate before you (aanamraaNaam) ; which are meant
to be
distributed (purastad-nyasana) to the devotees. [ Meditation on these
knees fulfils
all the desires of the devotees].

Your charming ( manojne). forelegs also (janghe ca ), are tapering
proportionally (krama-pR^thula).

I worship (nishheve) [ meditate upon] your thighs, knees and
forelegs.


Sarve bhavantu niraamayyaH. ( May everyone be free from disease).
V.M.Sundaram



Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of
Atman and Brahman.
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http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/
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>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:11:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New member introduction: Travis D. Webster
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


namaste,

I am replying to a request for more information about myself
and my interest in Vedanta. I have studied Advaita Vedanta with
traditional teachers extensively in the past few years and will
also visit India in July to attend courses with my teacher Swami
Dayananda Saraswati. I also have a research and teaching center
dedicated to Swamiji.

thanks,


Travis D. Webster
Center For Traditional Vedanta
http://www.pramana.org

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:07:07 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.9
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


14mar01



OM Namo Vaasudevaaya
Dashakam 100
Shlokam 9



manjiiram manju-naadair-iva pada- bhajanam
 shreya ityaalapantam

paadaagram bhraanti-majjat-praNata-jana-mano-
 mandaro-ddhaara-kuurmam |

uttunga-aataamra-raajan-nakhara-himakara-
 jyotsnayaa ca'aashritaanam

santaapa-dhvaanta-hantriim tatim-anukalaye
 mangalaam-anguliinaam ||




I meditate (anukalaye) on your anklets (manjiiram) which seem to be
announcing (aalapantam iva) in sweet tones (manju- naadaiH)
that (iti) worship of your feet (pada-bhajanam) will lead to the
highest good (shreya H).
[pada-bhajanam shreya iti , manjunaadaiH aalapantam iva, manjiiram
anukalaye]


I meditate (anukalaye) on the upper part of your foot (paadagram)
which is
shaped like the back of a tortoise.
As a tortoise (kuurma) you once lifted up the mandara mountain
(mandara-uddharam) and prevented it from sinking in the ocean.
Similarly meditation on your tortoise shaped foot lifts up the minds
(mano)
 of your devotees (praNata-jana) who are immersed (majjat) in the sea
of delusion (bhraanti).
[praNata- jana , bhraanti- majjat mana, uddhaaram paadaagram
anukalaye]


I meditate (anukalaye) on the auspicious (mangalaam) row (tatim) of
your toes (anguliinaam). The toe-nails (nakhara) are raised (uttunga)
and slightly
reddish (aa-taamra). The nails are shining (raajan). The radiance from
these nails
resembles the light (jyotsnaa) of the moon (himakara). This light
destroys (hantrii)
the darkness (dhvaanta) of the sorrow (santaapa) of those who have
taken refuge
(aashritanaam) in you.
[ nakhara himakara jyotsnayaa, aashritaanaam santaapa
dhvaanta-hantriim,
anguliinaam mangalaam tatim , anukalaye]



I meditate on the musical notes emanating from the anklets, on the
convex
surface of the upper foot, and on the radiance of the toe-nails. This
will
lift me out of the ocean of grief in which I have fallen due to my
ignorance.

Sarva mangalaani

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 17:38:45 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.10
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


16mar01


OM namo Vasudevaaya
Dashakam 100
Shlokam 10


yogiindraaNaam tvad-angeshh-vadhika-sumadhuram
 mukti-bhaajaam nivaaso

bhaktaanaam kama-varsha-dyu-taru-kisalayam
 natha te paada-muulam |

nityam citta-sthitam me pavanapura-pate
 kR^shhNa kaaruNya-sindho

hR^tvaa niHshesha-taapaan pradishatu
 paramaananda-sandoha-lakshmiim ||



In this the tenth and last shlokam of the 100th dashakam,
NaaraayaNa BhaTTatiri prays :

pavanapurapate ! kR^shNa ! kaaruNya-sindho! --
Oh KR^shhNa, the lord of Guruvaayuur, ocean of
mercy :

Of all your limbs (tvad-angeshhu)
the soles of your feet (te paadamuulam)
are the most beloved (adhika sumadhuram)
for the Great Yogiis (yogindraaNam).

Your feet are also where the liberated souls (muktibhaajam)
reside (nivaasaH) .[By constant meditation of your feet they
merge in you, and are liberated from samsaara]

They shower (varshha) on devotees (bhaktaanaam)
all their desires (kaama) like a sprout (kisalayam)
of the divine tree ( dyu-taru) does.

May the soles of your feet (te paadamuulam)
always (nityam) reside in my heart (citta-stitham), and
removing (hR^tvaa) all (niHshesha) the sorrows (taapaan),
bestow (pradihatu) constant flow (sandoha) of Supreme
Bliss (paramaananda lakshhmiim).



Thus by describing and meditating upon the saguNa ruupam
limb by limb, the poet seeks Supreme Bliss (paramaanandam)
which is NirguNa Brahman itself [sat-cit-aananda ruupam].

In a previous shlokam [99.10], he says :
Your Formless (NirguNa) aspect is most difficult to grasp
(dur-adhigama-tamam). This manifest form of yours is like
a wave on the ocean of Bliss (amR^ta-rasa-ambhodi-kallola-tulyam).
Note: Just as the wave is non-different from the ocean, the saguNa
form as KR^shhNa is non-different from NirguNa Brahman.


That brings us to the end of the ten shlokas which constitute NaaraayaNa

BhaTTatiri's description of the Vision of the Lord he had.
With my limited knowledge I ventured to present simple translations to
the verses. May the Lord forgive me for the many errors that may have
been committed by me in this endeavour.

Sarvatra Govinda naama sankiirtanam ! Govinda ! Govinda

Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 15:17:57 +0400
Subject: Re: NaaraayaNiiyam 100.10
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Dr. Annapurna S" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


JAI SHREE KRISHNA

Thanks a lot for the wonderful transliteration.

These verses are wonderful to recite even without knowing the meaning.However
now I am able to relish the same in a more beautiful form.We have been
reciting them from childhood and it never occurred to analyse them thus.
I am grateful once again for this exposition.Hoping for

>From "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 11:29:33 -0500
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1D
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "K. Sadananda" <sada at a...>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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 Notes on BSB I-i-4-1D

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .-4
 suutra: tat tu samanvayaat.h .-1D


We have been discussing the Shankara's presentation of puurva
miimaa.nsaa puurvapaksha under the explanation of the word 'tu'.

puurva miimaa.nasaka-s reject that siddhabodhaka vaakyam-s,
statements of facts, which are essentially the whole of j~naakaanDa,
as apramaaNaani or invalid, since they are not useful. However, in
presenting these, puurva miimaa.nsaka-s themselves encounter a
problem in their arguments. The puurva miimaa.nsaka-s accept that the
whole Veda as pramaaNam, since it is
apaurushheyam, and hence does not have any defects that can arise if
it is authored by a human intellect (nirdushhTa pramaaNa- defect-free
pramaaNam). puurvamiimaa.nsaka-s do not accept iishwara as the
revealer of the Veda-s. For them Veda is ultimate and it is
unrevealed even by
iishwara since they are eternal and anaadi or beginningless. For
puurvamiimaa.nsaka the Veda enjoys the same status as iishwara. But
through this aamnaayatvaat suutram he has divided the Veda into two
parts - siddhabodhaka vaakyam and kaaryabodhaka vaakyam - of which
the farmer is apramaaNam. Hence he made now the part of the Veda as
apramaaNam.

The question they had to face is how can one accept on one side the
whole Veda as pramaaNam and on the other side reject part of it as
apramaaNam. For that they say that siddhabodhaka vaakyam-s are
apramaaNam in the direct sense but they are useful indirectly, when
they are applied. All the siddhabodhaka vaakyam-s help indirectly the
implementation of kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s. For example when Veda-s
are glorifying heaven, swarga (see sloka quoted before), naturally we
get a desire to go there. Once the desire comes, one looks for the
means to go there and Veda-s help him instructing that jyotishhtomena
swarga kaamo yajeta - a desiree of swarga should do the ritual
jyotishhTa.

Thus student is directed to kaaryabodhaka vaakyam because he learned
about swarga. Learning about swarga did not help him directly to go
to swarga but indirectly helped him to have a desire and which caused
of action that he has to do to go to swarga. Hence all swarga varNana
vaakyam (statements describing heaven) should be linked to kaarya
bodhaka vaakyam - jyotishhTomena swarga kaamo yajeta. When they are
linked like that to kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s they become useful hence
become pramaaNam. Thus the whole Veda is pramaaNam, part dealing with
kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s are directly, while the part dealing with
siddhabodhaka vaakyam are only indirectly by linking to kaaryabodhaka
vaakyam-s. This aspect is conveyed by another puurvamiimaa.nsaa
suutram - vidhinaathu ekavaakyatvaat stutyarthena vidhinaamsyuH -
vidhinaam means kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s, eka vaakyatvaat means
sambandhavatvaat, by linking with, stutyarthena vidhiinaa, by
assisting kaaryabodhaka vaakyam they become pramaaNam. They use two
technical words - siddhabodhaka vaakyam-s are sheshha or dependent
and kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s are sheshhi, independent. sheshha-sheshhi
sambandhaH or mukhya-amukhya sambandhaH. Hence they consider that any
Vedantic statements (upanishhadic statements) are independently
useless. They have to be linked to one or the other kaaryabodhaka
vaakyam-s for them to be indirectly useful. They are useless unless
it is hooked to some kaaryabodhaka statement. That is why some people
claim that Vedanta has to be put into practice or to be applied.

What about Brahman revealed in Vedanta - satyam j~naanam anantam
brahma. puurvamiimaa.nsaaka-s says - there is no such thing called
Brahman at all. It is only a bhrama or illusion. This negation of
Brahman is there in both praabhaakara and bhaaTTamatam-s. Veda will
not reveal Brahman because Brahman is utterly useless. Upanishads
clearly state that Brahman is not attainable or knowable, by
statements such as adreshyam, agraahyam, it is imperceptible and it
cannot be grasped by the intellect, etc. Brahman is avyayahaaryam,
being so it is not available for any transaction. It cannot be a
subject, an object, an instrument, a locus etc , it is not a kartaa,
karma, kriya, karaNam, sampradaanam, or apaadaanam - Vedantins
themselves say that it is kriyaa kaaraka phala vilakshaNam - it is
neither an end nor a means to an end. Hence brahman na asti. There is
no such thing called Brahman.

What about aatma j~naanam, self-knowledge. That also is not
acceptable since self is intimately known to everyone. Why should
Veda reveal that which is already siddham or self-evident?
Swatasiddhasya aatmanaH vedavedyatvam kathaM bhavati? - pramaaNa
should reveal something, which is not known otherwise. Since aatmaa
is self-evident, why should Veda waste its breath to reveal
something, which is already known. Then what is use of Vedanta?
Whenever aatmaa is talked about in Vedanta one should take it as
statement glorifying the yajamaana or doer of the
ritual, so that he will be so happy to perform the ritual. It is like
a mother-feeding a child telling the stories of how great the child
is so that the child can eat the food. Wherever Brahman is talked
about, it should be understood as the glorification of yaaga
devata-s, the deities of rituals, so that the yajamaana is encouraged
to offer oblations to those devata-s. Thus all the Vedantic
statements have to be connected to the kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s,
statements of injunctions.

If every Vedantic statement has to be connected to one or the other
kaaryabodhaka vaakyam, the question arises which one to be connected
to what? Is it optional or is there some rule of connection? With
respect to this technical point, the two matam-s, the bhaaTTamatam
and praabhaakara matam differ.

According bhaTTamatam, all the j~naanakaanDa vaakyam-s should be
connected to karmakaanDa vidhi vaakyam or kriyaa vaakyaani.
praabaakara-s disagrees that this connection can be that arbitrary.
The karmakaanDa vaakyam-s are far away from the Vedantic vaakyam-s,
the arbitrary
connection he calls as prakaraNa bhedaH, totally far apart. According
to him the j~naanavaakyam-s should be connected to the closest
kaaryavaakyam-s. In the j~naanakaanDa itself there are many upaasana
vaakyam-s which are kaaryabodhakam. Hence all the brahmabodhana
statements should be connected to upaasana-s prescribed in Vedanta.
Because of this the person achieves purushaartha, and that is the
final goal of kaaryam, action. There is no direct use of j~naanam,
one has to do something, that something can be karma as in
karmakaanDa or upaasanaa as in j~naanakaanDa. Action is the essence
of Veda.

So far we have discussed puurvapaksha of puurvamiimaa.nsaa consisting
of both praabhaakara and bhaaTTamata-s.

We next take up Shankara's siddhaanta.

********
Notes on Brahmasuutra-s are now stored in a folder and can be accessed at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/advaitin/files/Notes+on+Brahmasuutra/
for personal study.

***Copyright Protection - These notes are copyright protected.***

--
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:22:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: panchanga script
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


There is a perl script for computing panchanga at

ftp://ccftp.kyoto-su.ac.jp/pub/doc/sanskrit/pancanga/

For personal use, I think one can modify and get the data one needs.
especially for sa.nkalpam if one needs, naxatra, tithi, yoga, karaNa
etc at a particular place and at local time. It is quite handy.

Espcially things change during the day. In the following data, at the
end data is printed for 6, 8, 18, and 20 hours of 3/17/2001, and you
will see the changes. Especially if your prayer hour varies, you may
want to set it up for a range (6-8 am/pm)

Just for your information. May be Anand can verify the accuracy of the
script.


Ravi



 Pancanga based on the Suryasiddhanta
 Day requested = AD 2001 3 17
 JD (at noon) = 2451986 Saturday
 Local latitude = 30.3
 Requested time = 6h: 0m

 Nirayana True Longitude
 Sun 11s 3d 0' 14"
 Moon 8s 8d 5' 59"
 Mercury 0s 0d 0' 0"
 Venus 0s 0d 0' 0"
 Mars 0s 0d 0' 0"
 Jupiter 0s 0d 0' 0"
 Saturn 0s 0d 0' 0"
 Candrocca 9s 24d 21' 9"
 Rahu 2s 21d 42' 31"
 Local sunrise = 6h 6m
 ayanamsa = 22d 31m
 Jovian(North) = vijaya(27)
 Jovian(South) = vikrama(14)
 Lunar Month = Phalguna
 Paksha = K 8 (fraction = 0.924)
 Solar masa/day = Mina /4
 samkranti on = 2001/ 3/14
 samkranti at = 5h:48m
 naksatra = Mula
 karana = kaulava
 yoga = vyatIpAta


6h Phalguna K 8(0.924) Mula kaulava vyatIpAta

 8h Phalguna K 9(0.003) Mula taitila vyatIpAta

18h Phalguna K 9(0.398) P-asadha taitila varIyas

20h Phalguna K 9(0.477) P-asadha taitila varIyas




=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:22:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: Our Fundamental Error - Part 8 of 11
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Note: forwarded message attached.


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
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[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:23:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Fwd: Our Fundamental Error - Part 9 of 11
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Note: forwarded message attached.


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Yoga-Vasishtha - Utpatti Khand, Chapter XLII - Philosophy of Dreaming Part I/III
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 15:11:47 -0500
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From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


Background: This is taken from the Yoga Vasishtha Maharamayana of Maharishi
Valmiki. Rishi Vasishtha is lecturing Shri Ram (please see my earlier post
on Yoga Vasishtha for this lecture's background). He is describing the
conversation between Goddess Saraswati and Viduratha, a ruler of Northern
India.

A Brahaman by the name of Vasishtha lived in a mountainous village,
performing his daily karmas in accordance with the Shastras. His wife,
Arundhati, was ever devoted to him as a dutiful wife should be towards her
husband. One day, this Brahaman saw a huge cloud of dust, as is raised by a
marching army, in the distance. When the convoy came nearer, he saw it to be
that of the local prince. The Brahaman marvelled at the luxuries enjoyed by
the prince and a desire entered his mind that were he a prince, he would
also enjoy similar luxuries.

At some point in time after this, the Brahaman dies. His wife prays to
Goddess Saraswati that may her lord's soul ever reside in their home where
she will have the satisfaction of always knowing that her lord was close-by.
After a while, the Brahamani too dies.

A king by the name of Padma, who is endowed with all auspicious marks, who
has subdued all his enemies and who is ever concerned for the welfare of his
subjects, lives his youthful days in ruling justly and wisely. His wife,
moon-faced Lila, who is ever devoted to her lord, spends her time in the
lovely and soothing company of her prince, Padma. They have every enjoyment
available to them and they spend their youthful years drinking the nectar of
life that has been afforded to them by their good deeds of this and their
former lives.

One day, Lila is overtaken by the fear that some day her lord, Padma, will
be taken away from her by the cruel hands of death. She prays to Goddess
Saraswati that she should depart to Yama's abode before her husband, whereby
she will be saved from bearing the pangs of separation that his death would
bring her. Goddess Saraswati appears to her in a vision and grants her the
wish that her lord's soul will be confined to their inner chambers, hence
she would have the comfort of knowing that her lord is always close-by.

Padma dies a few years later and Lila moves his body to their inner
chambers, where she, as instructed by the Goddess, bedecks his body with
fragrant flowers. Overcome by greif, she takes to severe austerities. After
observing a hundred tri-noctial vratas, where food is taken only on the
third night, she sits down in front of her husband's dead body and
meditates. In her meditation, she sees her husband Padma seated on a throne,
as the lord of the earth with the same ministers and retinue of servants,
maids and subjects as when he was alive. Perplexed at this vision, she
worships the Goddess again till the She appears in front of her.

Goddess Saraswati instructs Lila about the unreality of the world and the
non-existence of such things as space and time. She tells her that Padma,
her husband, was the Brahaman Vasishtha of yore and that she was Arundhati,
his wife. She further tells her that the Brahaman and his wife have died
just eight days ago. This perplxes Lila who wants to know how is it that she
and her lord have spent years together when they had dies just eight days
prior. She then tells Lila that her present state is only created by her
mind/intellect and that her husband's kingdom, his subjects, and Lila
herself were all situated in the small house where the Brahaman had died.

After an extended discourse about the inexistence of such things as objects,
space and time, Lila and the Goddess go to the area of Sindh, where a fierce
battle is raging between the rulers of Sindh, Sindhu, and Viduratha. A
myriad of princes from regions such Ionia (Yavan desh) and Kiratas (region
to the east of Aryavarta - could be the Mongoloid regions) are assisting one
or the other of these two.

The Goddess and Lila (in her Linga Deha or Sookshma Sharira) enter the tent
of King Viduratha. Viduratha is currently over seventy years of age and in
the prime of his manhood. The two show themselves to the King, who after
duly worshipping the two as Goddesses, proceeds to state that he is blessed
by their presence. His minister recites the lineage of the king. At this
point, Goddess Saraswati proceeds to tell Viduratha that he is the former
Padma, who had died the day before, and that all his (Viduratha's) kingdoms
and subjects were all contained in his intellect as in a dream. Viduratha is
perplexed at this as he is already seventy and could not have died in a
former life a day before. The Goddess that tells him about all this as being
existent in the very abode of the Brahaman Vasishtha who had died and whose
soul had remained confined to his house on account of his wife's,
Arundhati's, wishes. She then gives him a discourse about the unreality of
the world and the non existence of time and the world being existent inside
the intellect alone.


Part I of III

1. The man who is devoid of understanding, ignorant and unaquainted with the
All-pervading principle, thinks the unreal world as real, and as compact as
adamant.

2. As a child is not freed from his fear of ghosts until his death, so the
ignorant man never gets rid of his fallacy of the reality of the unreal
world, as long as he lives.

3. As the solar heat causes the error of water in the mirage to the deer and
unwary people, so the natural world appears as real to the ignorant part of
mankind.

4. As the false dream of one's death appears to be true in the dreaming
state, so the false world seems to be a field of action and gain to the
deluded man.

5. As one not knowing what is gold, views a golden bracelet as mere bracelet
and not as gold (i.e. one who takes the form and not the substance for
reality), so are the ignorant ever misled by formal appearances without a
knowledge of the causal element.

6. As the ignorant views a city, a house, a hill and an elephant as they are
presented before him, so the visibles are all taken only as they are seen
and not what they really are.

7. As strings of pearls are seen in the sunny sky and various paints and
taints in the plumage of the peacock, so the phenomenal world persents its
false appearances for sober realities.

8. Know life as a long sleep, and the world with myself and thyself are the
visions of its dream; we see many other persons in this sleepy dream, none
of whom is real as you will now learn from me.

9. There is but one All-pervading, quiet and spiritually substantial
reality. It is of the form of unintelligible intellect, and immense
outspreading vacuity.

10. It is onnipotent, and all in all by itself, and is of the form as it
manifests itself everywhere.

11. Hence the citizens that you now see in this visionary city are but
transient forms of men presented in your dream by that Omnipotent Being.

(continued)
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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Yoga-Vasishtha -Utpatti Khand, Chapter XLII - Philosophy of Dreaming Part II/III
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:24:41 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


12. The mind of the viewer remains in its self same state amidst the sphere
of his dreams, and represents the images thought of by itself in that
visionary sphere of mankind. (So the Divine Mind presents its various images
to the sight of men in this visionary sphere of the world, which has nothing
substantial in it.)

13. The knowing mind has the same knowledge of things, both in its waking as
well as dreaming states, and it is by an act of the percipient mind that
this knowledge is imprinted as true in the consious souls of men.

14. Rama said:- If the persons seen in the dream are unreal, then tell me
sir, what is the fault in the embodied soul which makes them appear as
realities.

15. Vasishtha replied:- The cities and houses, which are seen in dreams are,
in reality, nothing. It is only the illusion (mAyA) of the embodied souls
which makes them appear as true, like those seen in the waking state, in
this visionary world.

16. I will tell you in proof of this that in the beginning of creation, the
self-born BrahmA himself had the notions of all created things, in the form
of visionary appearances, as in a dream, and their subsequent development,
by the will of the creator; hence the creator is as unreal as their notions
and appearances in the dream.

17. Learn then this truth of me, that this world is a dream, and that you
and all other men have your sleeping dreams contained in your waking dreams
of this visionary world (i.e. the one is a night dream and the one is a day
dream, both equally untrue in their substance).

18. If the scenes that are seen in your sleeping dream have no reality in
them, how then can you expect those in your day dreams to be real at all?

19. As you take me for reality, so do I also take you and all other things
for realities likewise, and such is the case with everybody in this world of
dreams.

20. As I appear an entity to you in this world of lengthened dreams, so you
too appear an actual entity to me, and so it is with all in their protracted
dreaming.

21. Rama asked:- If both these states of dreaming are alike, then tell me,
why the dreamer in sleep, does not upon his waking, think the visions in his
dream to be as real as those of his day dreaming state?

22. Vasishtha replied:- Yes, the day dreaming is of the same nature as night
dreams, in which the dreamt objects appear to be real; it is upon the waking
from the one, as upon the death of the day dreamer, that both these visions
are found to vanish in empty air.

23. As the objects of your night dreams do not subsist in time or place upon
your waking, so also those of your day dream can have no subsistence upon
death.

continued)

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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Yoga-Vasishtha -Utpatti Khand, Chapter XLII -Philosophy of Dreaming Part III/III
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 18:26:54 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


24. Thus is every thing unreal which appears real for the present and it
appears into an airy nothing at last, though it might appear as charming as
a fairy form in the dream.

25. There is one Intelligence that fills all space, and appears as every
thing both within and without everybody. It is only by our illusive
conception of it that we take it in different lights.

26. As one picks up a jewel he happens to meet with in a treasure house, so
do we lay hold on any thing with which the vast Intellect is filled
according to our own liking. (The Translator Vihari Lala Mitra takes this to
mean Free Will.)

27. The goddess of intelligence, having thus caused the germ of true
knowledge to sprout forth in the mind of the prince (Viduratha) by
sprinkling the ambrosial drops of her wisdom on it, thus spake to him in the
end:-

28. I have told you all this for the sake of Lila, and now, good prince, we
shall take leave of you and these illusory scenes of the world.

29. Vasishtha said:- The intelligent prince, being thus gently addressed by
the goddess of wisdom, besought her in a submissive tone.

30. Vidurath said:- Your visit, O most bounteous Goddess, cannot go for
nothing, when we poor mortals cannot withhold our bounty from our supplicant
visitants.

31. I will quit this body and repair to another world, as one passes from
one chain of dreams to another.

32. Look upon me, thy supplicant, with kindness, and deign to confer the
favor I ask of thee, because the great never disdain to grant the prayers of
their supplicants.

33. Ordain that this virgin daughter of my minister may accompany me to the
region where I shall be led, that we may have spiritual joy in each other's
company hereafter.

34. Saraswati said:- Go now prince to the former palace of your past life,
and there reign without fear, in the enjoyment of true pleasure. Know
prince, that our visits never fail to fulfil the best wishes of our
supplicants.

Concluded


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>From "V Chandrasekaran" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: meaning needed for Brahmendra's composition
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 13:39:32 +0530
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From: "V Chandrasekaran" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
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Dear Members,
 Can someone please provide the meaning for the legendary krithi 
"mAnasa sanchararE" (in rAg sAma) of Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra?

 Thanks,
 chandrasekaran.


[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "V Chandrasekaran" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: mAnasa sanchararE lyrics
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:40:22 +0530
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Dear Members,
 I am writing the lyrics for mAnasa sanchararE (of Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra) so
that knowledgeable members can provide the meaning.

pallavi:
mAnasa sanchararE brahmaNi (mAnasa)

anupallavi:
mathaSiki pinchA alankrutha SikurE
madhanI akapOra(akapOla??) vijithamukUrE (mAnasa)

charaNam:
SrI ramaNI kucha durgavihArE
sEvaka jana mandhira mandhArE
paramahamsa mukha chandrachakOrE
paripUritha muraLi ravadhArE(dhavarArE??) (mAnasa)

Please note that there could be mistakes in vAkhyam as well as transliteration
owing to my limited understanding of this krithi.

Someone kindly provide corrections and the meaning for this song.

Thanks and regards,
chandrasekaran.



[Non-text portions of this message have been

>From "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Bharati Tradition
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 08:35:54 -0600
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Bell, Gregg" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaste,

I have read of, and would like to investigate further, the Bharati ('Lovers
of Knowledge') tradition within the Himalayan (Himalayan Masters?) tradition
of Advaita Vedanta based yoga. This is the tradition most notably taught be
Swami Rama (of the Himalayas) and his disciple Swami Veda. Swami Rama
founded the Himalayan Institute and Swami Veda founded the Minneapolis
Meditation Center, both in America.

Both these groups are well known and respected, but are there other sources
of guidance in this tradition as well in India or North America?

Thanks as

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 19:29:47 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: mAnasa sanchararE lyrics
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From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


V Chandrasekaran wrote:

> Part 1.1 Type: Plain Text (text/plain)
> Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Shri Chandrasekharan and other Members,
 I shall attempt to give a loose translation of
the song with my limited knowledge. Others can add and amend with
superior knowledge.

Pallavi:
 re maanasa - O Mind
 sanchara - dwell constantly
 BrahmaNi - in BrahmaN [only]

anupallavi :
 (sanchara) - (dwell constantly)
 chikure - in the hair
 alankR^ta - decorated with
 mata - highly regarded
 shikhi pinccha - peacock feathers

 madaniiya - charming
 kapola - cheeks
 vijita - which defeat (out shine)
 mukura - a mirror
[kapola-vijita-mukura is a compound word
 so
kapola-vijita-mukure means in the cheeks
 which
out-shine a mirror ]

charaNam :
 vihaare - (in) one who sports playfully on

 durga - the inaccessible fortress (of
the)
 kucha - breasts (of)
 shrii ramaNii - Goddess Lakshhmi

 mandaare - (in) one who fulfills ( like the
divine tree mandaara)
 mandira - all desires (of)
 sevaka jana - devotees

 chandra chakore - (in) him who is like the moon to the
chakora bird
 mukha - (to the ) face of
 paramahamsa - great yogins
 [ the appearance of the
moon brings great joy to the
 chakora bird which eagerly
waits to quench its thirst
 with the nectar from the
moon-beams. The paramahamsa
 yogins revel in the vision
of God .]


 dhaaraH - is an epithet of VishhNu
(supporter), dhaare = in Him (sanchara)
 paripuurita - who fills your entire Being with
 rava - the sound (of His)
 muralii - flute


 The transliteration will then read as follows:

 Pallavi :
 maanasa sanchara re BrahmaNi
 Anupallavi:
 mata- shikhi-pinccha-alankR^ta-chikure
 madaniiya kapola-vijita-mukure
 CharaNam :
 shrii - ramaNii-kucha-durga-vihaare
 sevaka-jana-mandira-mandaare
 paramahamsa-mukha-chandra-chakore
 paripuurita muralii-rava dhare



 Regards


>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:12:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: New (old :) member introduction: Sanjivendra Nath
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Namaste,

Actually, I used to be a member but my email changed to the current one.
It has been almost a year since I left the list, and I do miss the
discussion and the various gems of wisdom that formed part of the
discussion.

My name is Sanjivendra Nath. I am married with 3 children. I live and
work in Chicago.

I have attended the Vedanta Ashram of Swami Vivekananda in Hyde Park, and
wish to continue being in touch with the rich Advaita philosophy via email.
I cannot learn enough in the short time that we have.

Thank

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 11:31:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bharati Tradition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 20 Mar 2001, Bell, Gregg wrote:

> Namaste,
>
> I have read of, and would like to investigate further, the Bharati ('Lovers
> of Knowledge') tradition within the Himalayan (Himalayan Masters?) tradition
> of Advaita Vedanta based yoga. This is the tradition most notably taught be
> Swami Rama (of the Himalayas) and his disciple Swami Veda. Swami Rama
> founded the Himalayan Institute and Swami Veda founded the Minneapolis
> Meditation Center, both in America.
>
> Both these groups are well known and respected, but are there other sources
> of guidance in this tradition as well in India or North America?
>

Monks that belong to the Advaita tradition (and some renegade groups that
were originally Advaitins) are called Dashanamis (those who have 10 names)
because they have one of 10 "surnames" Bharati is one of them. You can
find out more about this on our homepage (See
http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ad-today.html) Bharati is a name of
Saraswati (itself a common Dashanami name) the goddess of knowledge. But
it does not specially signify "a lover of knowledge." One would hope all
monks were lovers of knowledge. Typically a new initiate takes the
surname of the guru who initiated him but it would be misleading to refer
to the 10 names as orders in the sense of seperate organization with their
own rituals and traditions.

In modern times, Jagadgurus of the Shringeri matha have been Bharatis

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 18:27:55 -0500
Subject: Re: mAnasa sanchararE lyrics
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


The song by Sadasiva Brahmendra has a lot of suggested meaning (called
dhvani, in the Sanskrit theory of poetics). I'll try to convey a few
impressions here. It is amazing how much meaning can be packed into a
short phrase.

> Pallavi :
> maanasa sanchara re BrahmaNi
> Anupallavi:
> mata- shikhi-pinccha-alankR^ta-chikure
> madaniiya kapola-vijita-mukure

I have the words here as mada-zikhi-pinchAlank.rta, and mahanIya-kapola.

The reference in the first line is to a (love)-intoxicated peacock.
pincha = wing. The peaccok feathers adorning the crown of Krishna are
compared to the spectacle of the peacock spreading its tail-wing in a
circle, when it dances its courtship dance.

In the second line, the reading mahanIya (= praiseworthy, illustrious),
would also make good sense, along with the compound kapola-vijita-mukura,
as explained earlier by Sri V. M. Sundaram.

> CharaNam :
> shrii - ramaNii-kucha-durga-vihaare
> sevaka-jana-mandira-mandaare

mandira means dwelling, temple, habitation, abode etc. mandAra is a
celestial flower/tree. The line sevaka-jana... would translate better
as follows - [O mind, revel in the Brahman,] who lives in the celestial
flower of the abodes of his devotees. The suggested meaning here is
that the lord dwells in the hearts of devotees. Comparing the heart to
a lotus is a frequent metaphor in Sanskrit literature.

> paramahamsa-mukha-chandra-chakore
> paripuurita muralii-rava dhare

paripUrita-muralI-rava-dhAre - the word dhAra can be taken as a masculine
form of dhArA, i.e. stream, flow. It also has the meaning of containing,
holding or supporting. So instead of taking dhAra as a separate reference
to Vishnu, the sentence would mean, [O mind, revel in the Brahman], who
supports the all-pervading sound of the flute, or [O mind, revel in the
Brahman], whose flow of sound from the flute has become all-pervading.

Best

>From Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 20:36:54 -0500
Subject: Re: mAnasa sanchararE lyrics
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Vidyasankar Sundaresan <vsundaresan at h...>


>> CharaNam :
>> shrii - ramaNii-kucha-durga-vihaare
>> sevaka-jana-mandira-mandaare
>
>mandira means dwelling, temple, habitation, abode etc. mandAra is a
>celestial flower/tree. The line sevaka-jana... would translate better
>as follows - [O mind, revel in the Brahman,] who lives in the celestial
>flower of the abodes of his devotees. The suggested meaning here is
>that the lord dwells in the hearts of devotees. Comparing the heart to
>a lotus is a frequent metaphor in Sanskrit literature.

On second thought, the phrase sevaka-jana-mandira-mandAra seems
more difficult than I had anticipated. Krishna is directly called
the mandAra (celestial flower) of the sevaka-jana-mandira (the
temples or dwellings or abodes of devotees). I am unsure of how
to exactly convey the poetic intention

>From Charles Wikner <wikner at n...>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 16:39:15 +0200
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiyam]
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Charles Wikner <wikner at n...>


On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...> wrote:
[forwarded to advaita-l on Wed, 14 Mar 2001, from the advaitin list]

> NOTE: Just to remind ourselves. The words prabhu and vibhu are
> commonly used referring to iishvara. Prabhu refers to his
> all-powerfulness -omnipotentence- sarva-shakti-mat-tvam.
> Vibhu refers to his all-pervasiveness -omnipresence-
> sarva-vyaapi-tvam. I do not recollect a similar crisp word
> indicating omniscience- sarvajnatvam. Can some member of the
> list help me, please ?

That triad has a very Western sound to it. Surely omnipotentence
includes omniscience (i.e. jnaana-shakti is necessarily an aspect
of sarva-shakti), otherwise it is merely the random energy of the
evolutionists.

To invent a triad more appropriate to the context, perhaps
vibhu-prabhu-shambhu as a devotional view of the somewhat
abstract sat-cit-aananda.

Regards,

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 12:21:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Bharati Tradition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


Jaldhar wrote:
Bharati is a name ofSaraswati (itself a common Dashanami name) the
goddess of knowledge.
--
There are three vedic devata-s related to knowledge. They are
sarasvatI, bhAratI and iLA (or iDA). In one sense they are all same.
But I feel there must be some differences. In the Tele-Conference (Q&A)
with shrI rangapriya swami (available on ramanuja.org), Dr. V.
Sadagopan asked this question to the saint. The reply was, they can be
identified at yogic level to the differnt nADi-s iDa, pingaLa and
sushumna. The last being sarasvatI. They are also identified with the
rivers ganga, yamuna and sarasavatI. Their confluence at the a~jnA
chakra (bhrU madhya) is the triveNI sangamamam)

In general I found the swamiji more catholic and open than typical
shrIvaishNava-s. I was amazed at the ease with which he quoted )from
his memory) a verse from shivAnandalaharI (mA gachcha tvam) while
answering a question on animal sacrifice. Also in one of the lectures
he saluted shankara/daxiNamurti in the beginning with other
salutations. Two of his lectures are available online. I found his Q&A
session very valuable.




=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/

>From "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 13:33:27 +0800
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [advaitin] NaaraayaNiiyam]
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...>


Charles Wikner wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 "V.M.Sundaram" <venkataraman at p...> wrote:
> [forwarded to advaita-l on Wed, 14 Mar 2001, from the advaitin list]
>
> > NOTE: Just to remind ourselves. The words prabhu and vibhu are
> > commonly used referring to iishvara. Prabhu refers to his
> > all-powerfulness -omnipotentence- sarva-shakti-mat-tvam.
> > Vibhu refers to his all-pervasiveness -omnipresence-
> > sarva-vyaapi-tvam. I do not recollect a similar crisp word
> > indicating omniscience- sarvajnatvam. Can some member of the
> > list help me, please ?
>
> That triad has a very Western sound to it. Surely omnipotentence
> includes omniscience (i.e. jnaana-shakti is necessarily an aspect
> of sarva-shakti), otherwise it is merely the random energy of the
> evolutionists.
>
> To invent a triad more appropriate to the context, perhaps
> vibhu-prabhu-shambhu as a devotional view of the somewhat
> abstract sat-cit-aananda.
>
> Regards, Charles.

 Thank you Charles. Shambhu does have a devotional flavour.
Svayambhu may also be a good substitute for Shambhu.
It will indicate that Isvara has no kaaraNa , though He is the kaaraNa of
all.
Comment

>From R Krishnamoorthy <srirudra at V...>
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 22:21:20 -0500
Subject: color of shiva
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: R Krishnamoorthy <srirudra at V...>


Sometime back there was a query as to the five colours of Lord
Shiva mentioned in the Shivapuranam (Nirangalore einthudayai).
In Tamilnadu there is a Shiva diety going by the name
"Panchavarneshwarar" with His consort Kanthimathi in a temple
at Uraiyur near Tiruchirapalli. As per the Sthalavaralaru
(the legend of the temple) Lord Shiva manifested to Brahma five
colours through His body to facilitate creation. The five colours
were Golden colour, White colour, Red colour, Black colour and
Grey colour. Through Golden colour Earth was created, through White
colour Water was created, through Red colour Fire was created, through
Black colour Air was created and finally through Grey colour Space
was created. Rudhram speaks of White (vilohitha), Golden (Babru),
Crimson (Aruna), Red (Thamra), Black/ Blue (Nilalohitha). In another
place Rohitha is also used indicating red colour or deep red
colour.Correction are

>From "sanjeev nayyar" <exploreindia at v...>
Subject: Re: color of shiva
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 23:41:43 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "sanjeev nayyar" <exploreindia at v...>


pl visit my site, go to festivals to read about shivarathri.
sanjeev
Discover your Roots - Visit www.esamskriti.com
----- Original Message -----
From: R Krishnamoorthy <srirudra at V...>
To: <ADVAITA-L at L...>
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2001 8:51 AM
Subject: color of shiva


> Sometime back there was a query as to the five colours of Lord
> Shiva mentioned in the Shivapuranam (Nirangalore einthudayai).
> In Tamilnadu there is a Shiva diety going by the name
> "Panchavarneshwarar" with His consort Kanthimathi in a temple
> at Uraiyur near Tiruchirapalli. As per the Sthalavaralaru
> (the legend of the temple) Lord Shiva manifested to Brahma five
> colours through His body to facilitate creation. The five colours
> were Golden colour, White colour, Red colour, Black colour and
> Grey colour. Through Golden colour Earth was created, through White
> colour Water was created, through Red colour Fire was created, through
> Black colour Air was created and finally through Grey colour Space
> was created. Rudhram speaks of White (vilohitha), Golden (Babru),
> Crimson (Aruna), Red (Thamra), Black/ Blue (Nilalohitha). In another
> place Rohitha is also used indicating red colour or deep red
> colour.Correction are

>From "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>
Subject: Re:Bharati Tradition
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 13:52:58 -0000
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Savithri Devaraj" <savdev at h...>


Namaste Ravi,

Thanks for bringing this up.

>In general I found the swamiji more catholic and open than typical
>shrIvaishNava-s. I was amazed at the ease with which he quoted )from his
>memory) a verse from shivAnandalaharI (mA gachcha tvam) >while answering
>a question on animal sacrifice. Also in one of the >lectures
>he saluted shankara/daxiNamurti in the beginning with other
>salutations. Two of his lectures are available online. I found his >Q&A
>session very valuable.

Very true. I observed the same thing about the previous speaker, Dr.Ananta
Rangachar. He profusely quoted from Sri.Shankara through out the talk.
Unfortunately, his talks are not online.

One characteristics of true seekers and vidvAns is their humility and
devotion which really stands out. This is more so in the field of Vedanta
than in others. After all vedanta vijnAna is not just intellectual
understanding, our Rishis say true jnAna is never possible without supreme
devotion. The life and works of Sri Shankara (Gita Bhashya, Bhaja Govindam
and all other devotional hymns he has written) provides ample proof of that.

Here is the shloka that the Swami referred to:

mA gaccha tvam itastato girisha bho mayyeva vAsaM kuru
swAmminnAdi kirAta mAmaka manaH kAntArasImAntare |
vartante bahusho mR^iga mada jusho mAtsarya mohAdaya
stAn.h hatvA mR^igayA-vinoda ruchitAlAbhaM ca saMprApsyasi || 43 ||

Please do not go hither and thither, but reside within me alone, Oh resident
of the Mountain, thou primeval hunter!! For in the limitless forest of my
mind, there are many beasts of prey like jealousy, infactuation, etc.
Killing them, you can also enjoy your fondness for hunt.

with respects,
Savithri

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:20:52 -0500
Subject: vedasArashivastotra - 4 (Conclusion)
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


namaste namaste vibho vishvamUrte
 namaste namaste chidAnandamUrte |
namaste namaste tapoyogagamya
 namaste namaste shrutiGYAnagamya || 8 ||

 Prostrations to the all pervading Lord.
 Prostrations to One who exists in all forms.
 Prostrations to the embodiment of Consciousness and Bliss.
 Prostrations to One who can be reached through austerity and
 Yoga.
 Prostrations to One who is attainable through knowledge of the Vedas.

prabho shUlapANe vibho vishvanAtha
 mahAdeva shaMbho mahesha trinetra |
shivAkAnta shAnta smarAre purAre
 tvadanyo vareNyo na mAnyo na gaNyaH || 9 ||

 O Lord! O Bearer of the trishUla (trident)! O All-pervading
 Lord! O Lord of the Universe! O Great God! O Cause of Happiness
 (shaMbhu)! O mahesha! O Three-eyed Lord! O Beloved of pArvati!
 O Peaceful One! O Enemy of kAma (desire)! O Enemy of tripurAsura!
 There is none who excels You, none who is to be revered or
 even to be considered (apart than You)!

 shaMbho mahesha karuNAmaya shUlapANe
 gaurIpate pashupate pashupAshanAshin.h |
 kAshIpate karuNayA jagadetadekastvaM
 haMsi pAsi vidadhAsi maheshvaro .asi || 10 ||

 O shaMbhu ! O mahesha ! O Lord who are full of compassion!
 O Bearer of the trident! O Lord of GaurI ! O pashupate !
 O Destroyer of the bondage of jIvas! O Lord of kAshI! You
 single-handedly create, sustain, and destroy this world,
 out of compassion. (Therefore,) You alone are the Maheshvara
 (controller of mAyA).

 tvatto jagadbhavati deva bhava smarAre
 tvayyeva tiShThati jaganmR^iDa vishvanAtha |
 tvayyeva gachchhati layaM jagadetadIsha
 liN^gAtmakaM hara charAcharavishvarUpin.h || 11 ||

 O deva ! O shiva ! O Enemy of kAma ! O Lord who are gracious
 to the world! O VishvanAtha ! O Ishvara! O Hara! O Lord who are present
 everywhere in the world of movable and immovable things!
 This world of the nature of the liN^ga is produced from You,
 It is sustained in You, and It dissolves in You.

 || iti shrImachchhaMkarAchAryakR^ito vedasArashivastavaH saMpUrNaH

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <msr at c...>
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 19:24:37 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: ADMIN: Membership Synchronization on Egroups
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <msr at c...>


namaste

I have brought Egroups (more or less) in sync with our main server. This
required adding close to 50+ members on Egroups. If you are one of those
50, please note that the Egroups server is only a back up server. All
the members on Egroups are set to Read on WWW only. And that is how it
is intended to be.

Thanks.

Sincerely,


Ravi

(Vaidya: Can you check if I have missed

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 00:25:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: bhaNe shivAnanda swAmi
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Today is Yugadi, the bginning of the solar new year (Shalivahana Shaka
1923) and the start of Chaitra Navaratri.

My turn to ask a question: In the arati to Mataji, is the line in the
title. Is anything known about this Swami Shivananda? Obviously it is
not the modern-day founder of the Divine Life Society.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 01:03:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Bharati Tradition
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Mon, 26 Mar 2001, Savithri Devaraj wrote:

> One characteristics of true seekers and vidvAns is their humility and
> devotion which really stands out.

So true. Being the argumentative sort, I often get into polemics with
people. Sometimes it degenerates into name-calling which is bad.
Sometimes the other person ends up agreeing with me and that's of course
very good. Sometimes we agree to disagree but both sides come away having
learnt something new and interesting about the other. In that case I
don't mind not "winning." It makes me happy that in our list we have some
people who vishishtadvaitins or dwaitins and may have no intention of
embracing our tenets but are still interested in knowing about them. And
I encourage our members to join or browse through the archives of their
lists. We should never back down from our own beliefs but that shouldn't
make as arrogant enough to believe other peopes beliefs don't matter.
>From the Advaita Vedanta perspective, ignorance is the enemy. Therefore
anything and anyone that decreases ignorance is good.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 01:07:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Conversation with a 5 year old.
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, ken knight wrote:

> Secondly I am making a plea to you although I am sure
> that you do this already because you subscribe to this
> site. Here in England, and it is probably the same in
> USA, there is a 'hamburger generation' of young Asians
> who know nothing of the Asian culture.

Your words ring very true to me. I was born in Dartford, Kent and lived
in England till I was 13 when we moved to the US. I still have some
relatives there who I keep in touch with. You're right there is a
hamburger generation. I was part of it. My mother would never have
allowed that sort of food in the house but when I was with my friends,
everyone was doing it -- you get the picture. I think that's true of my
Gujarati friends. We had nothing against dharma or Gujarati culture but
it all seemed so mysterious, far off and not terribly relevant to our
current situation. I was lucky that like Mrs. Devaraj, my parents showed
me by their example and by answering my questions what it meant to be
dharmic. Unfortunately, many never get that chance. Elders often
write off the younger generation or talk down to them and that is more
destructive than anything "Western materialism" is capable off.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Siddhartha Krishna" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Reply-To: "Siddhartha Krishna" <siddharthakrishna at v...>
Subject: the aim of Vedic teachings
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 05:45:58 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Siddhartha Krishna" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C0B681.328CD260
Content-Type: text/plain;
 charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Advaitins,

Om Namo Narayanaya,

Today we had a good discussion held here. The main purpose of it was to fig=
ure out the aim of a religious book, like the Vedas or any book related to =
them, like Upanishads or Gita, and I think it should be quite similar for o=
ther religious books as well.

In one word, the purpose of these books is "dharma". The word is widely use=
d and surely every body having an acquaintance of Hinduism, knows or has he=
ard this word. But as many other religious words, this word too, is not und=
erstood in it's real significance and is just taken as an equivalent of the=
 word "religion".

But according the Collins English Dictionary the word "religion" means:

belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers consi=
dered to be divine or to have control of human destiny.

I think, "vishvaasa" or "mata" would be better words to denote this meaning=
, but not "dharma". Let us ponder a bit deeper in to this word, that we may=
 be able to understand the sole purpose of all these religious books.

"dharma" literally means that this which bears. In its wide implication it =
means the powers which bear the universe or to be more conclusive, the cons=
cious world. The difference between the word "religion" and "Dharma" lies i=
n these 2 points, 1. It is not a belief or worship etc. of a power, but it =
is itself the power. 2. It is not only a supernatural power, but it also in=
cludes natural powers. In fact there are some powers, which seem to be supe=
rnatural, but in fact are natural.

Only because they seem a bit unconceivable to our human mind, we think "the=
y are supernatural". Flying an aircraft sounded supernatural before the 190=
0s, but is it supernatural today?

Therefore, in this wide meaning, even preserving the pure environment is a =
"dhaarmika" (religious) work and making our environment dirty is an "adhaar=
mika" (non-religious) deed or "paapa" (sin).=20

Again coming back to the topic, these books tell us how to "interact" with =
our fellow beings and with the nature we live in. Therefore they teach us, =
how to behave towards others, towards other creatures, towards the environm=
ent. These all together leads to a happy, blissful communal life, with spir=
itually, mentally and physically healthiness. We can see, that how by viola=
ting these "dharmas", the society of today has problems on every level. Ind=
eed, the west has cured much of it's physical problems, with accepting the =
Yogic way of life, like doing Hatha Yoga or nourishing itself with Sattvik =
food. But what about healthiness on spiritual and mental plains? What about=
 living a peaceful and balanced life? I think, it is this which still lacks=
 with most of the people. Much Yoga is still left untouched, which provides=
 solution to these problems, as effective as the solutions to physical prob=
lems.=20

In the same way to resolve our social problems, these scriptures teach us c=
odes of conduct.

In precise, if I quote a Vedic Mantra, "anything heard apart from the Vedas=
, is in vain, because a person would never know the path to good deeds". Le=
t me make it clear, that the Vedas don't mean to say that hearing anything =
else than the Vedas is useless, as some fools understand, but it means to s=
ay that if you hear something different, leaving the Vedas and ignoring the=
 rules described in it, then it is useless. Isn't it like that? I think it =
is. We know so much, we know how to fly, we know how to lend on the moon, w=
e know how to brake atoms, but do we really know how to be alive and how to=
 give a better world to our following generations? Do we know how to keep t=
he humankind safe from wars and other forms of violence? Do we really know =
at all how to live a successful life without grief, mental tensions, proble=
ms etc.? I think, every day approximately hundreds of new sorts of problems=
 are being created everyday. Why all this? Only because violating some fund=
amental rules of existence, called "dharma".

When we start to talk about any religious book or religion itself, we skip =
the daily life and it's problems, and we start to talk about a life after d=
eath, we start to talk about things like reincarnation, premortal existence=
 or about heaven and hell. But what about the heaven and hell in this life?=
 Aren't we ignoring a heaven in this life, for us and for others. If a reli=
gion or a religious book fails to provide a heaven in this very life and in=
 this very mortal word, how may we be able to believe that it may be able t=
o provide a heaven in the next lives? I don't understand this fundamental f=
act. Therefore, let us bring our feet on the ground and stop flying in the =
"heavens" as many religious people do, and try to make this world first a b=
etter place to live, with the help of these fundamental principles describe=
d in the Vedas and Vedic scriptures.

For example, many among us do endless Japa and Pujaas to Lord Krishna. But =
have we ever listened to Him, what he says and which sort of devotee he rea=
lly loves? Have we ever tried to be something similar to the description of=
 a devotee given by Lord Krishna Himself? If yes, then indeed we are a bett=
er devotee than those who just keep on chanting the name of Lord Krishna an=
d violating the rules described by Him.

What are those rules and what is the description of His beloved devotee.

"He hates no beings, is friendly and compassionate; he is rid of all sense =
of possession and of egoism; he is the same in pleasure and pain, and alway=
s forgives." (Gita 12.13)

"From him the world does not agitate, neither he is agitated from the world=
" (Gita 12.15)

etc.

I'm sure I wouldn't be able to describe in detail each qualities Lord Krish=
na has mentioned here, and how are they essential for the happiness of ever=
ybody, and with that, our own selves. But still I would like to state that =
if a person wants to gain happiness, for the first he should never forget t=
hat every individual, including his very own self, is a part of a collectiv=
e society, i.e. no one can become happy in it's true significance, by makin=
g other people unhappy. Individual thinking, I mean selfish thinking, is a =
quality of an undeveloped mentality and collective thinking or thinking not=
 for one's own self, but for the well-being of the entire society, is indee=
d a quality of a highly developed mentality. These scriptures, if understoo=
d correctly, help us to develop our mentality.

If we try to visualize the scriptures with this view, I'm highly convinced =
that a day would come when these scriptures would be highly essential for t=
he further existence of humanity. Otherwise, the hearts and brains of flesh=
 would change in to the hearts and brains of steel and iron, as you might h=
ave read in many science fictions.

However much work has to be done in this field and indeed much work has als=
o been done. But still one formula is being ignored constantly, "science/te=
chnology + spirituality/obedience of Dharma =3D peace/happiness/further exi=
stence of humanity."

Let us pray to the supreme almighty Lord, that he may give us the ability t=
o work in this field with cutting the edge of our powers.

I wish you all the best,

Siddhartha

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Om Shantih, Shantih, Shantih, Om
(Om Peace, Peace, Peace, Om)
=B0 "da da da" (Control your self! Give to others! Have compassion towards
all! - The three Vedic commandments)
=B0 =B0 my e-mail address: siddharthakrishna at v...
=B0 =B0 =B0 Like to read about Vedism? please visit:
http://www.geocities.com/vedism/ or
http://members.nbci.com/siddharthakrishna/

------=_NextPart_000_00D1_01C0B681.328CD260
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Dear Advaitins,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Om Namo Narayanaya,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Today we had a good discussion held here. The main pur=
pose of=20
it was to figure out the aim of a religious book, like the Vedas or any boo=
k=20
related to them, like Upanishads or Gita, and I think it should be quite si=
milar=20
for other religious books as well.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In one word, the purpose of these books is "dharma". T=
he word=20
is widely used and surely every body having an acquaintance of Hinduism, kn=
ows=20
or has heard this word. But as many other religious words, this word too, i=
s not=20
understood in it's real significance and is just taken as an equivalent of =
the=20
word "religion".</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>But according the Collins English Dictionary the word=
=20
"religion" means:</P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText>belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatura=
l power=20
or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I think, "vishvaasa" or "mata" would be better words t=
o=20
denote this meaning, but not "dharma". Let us ponder a bit deeper in to thi=
s=20
word, that we may be able to understand the sole purpose of all these relig=
ious=20
books.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>"dharma" literally means that this which bears. In its=
 wide=20
implication it means the powers which bear the universe or to be more=20
conclusive, the conscious world. The difference between the word "religion"=
 and=20
"Dharma" lies in these 2 points, 1. It is not a <I>belief </I>or <I>worship=
 etc.=20
</I>of a power, but it is itself <I>the power</I>. 2. It is not only a=20
supernatural power, but it also includes natural powers. In fact there are =
some=20
powers, which seem to be <I>supernatural</I>, but in fact are natural.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Only because they seem a bit unconceivable to our huma=
n mind,=20
we think "they are supernatural". Flying an aircraft sounded supernatural b=
efore=20
the 1900s, but is it supernatural today?</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Therefore, in this wide meaning, even preserving the p=
ure=20
environment is a "dhaarmika" (religious) work and making our environment di=
rty=20
is an "adhaarmika" (non-religious) deed or "paapa" (sin). </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Again coming back to the topic, these books tell us ho=
w to=20
"interact" with our fellow beings and with the nature we live in. Therefore=
 they=20
teach us, how to behave towards others, towards other creatures, towards th=
e=20
environment. These all together leads to a happy, blissful communal life, w=
ith=20
spiritually, mentally and physically healthiness. We can see, that how by=20
violating these "dharmas", the society of today has problems on every level=
.=20
Indeed, the west has cured much of it's physical problems, with accepting t=
he=20
Yogic way of life, like doing Hatha Yoga or nourishing itself with Sattvik =
food.=20
But what about healthiness on spiritual and mental plains? What about livin=
g a=20
peaceful and balanced life? I think, it is this which still lacks with most=
 of=20
the people. Much Yoga is still left untouched, which provides solution to t=
hese=20
problems, as effective as the solutions to physical problems. </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In the same way to resolve our social problems, these=
=20
scriptures teach us codes of conduct.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>In precise, if I quote a Vedic Mantra, "anything heard=
 apart=20
from the Vedas, is in vain, because a person would never know the path to g=
ood=20
deeds". Let me make it clear, that the Vedas don't mean to say that hearing=
=20
anything else than the Vedas is useless, as some fools understand, but it m=
eans=20
to say that if you hear something different, leaving the Vedas and ignoring=
 the=20
rules described in it, then it is useless. Isn't it like that? I think it i=
s. We=20
know so much, we know how to fly, we know how to lend on the moon, we know =
how=20
to brake atoms, but do we really know how to be alive and how to give a bet=
ter=20
world to our following generations? Do we know how to keep the humankind sa=
fe=20
from wars and other forms of violence? Do we really know at all how to live=
 a=20
successful life without grief, mental tensions, problems etc.? I think, eve=
ry=20
day approximately hundreds of new sorts of problems are being created every=
day.=20
Why all this? Only because violating some fundamental rules of existence, c=
alled=20
"dharma".</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>When we start to talk about any religious book or reli=
gion=20
itself, we skip the daily life and it's problems, and we start to talk abou=
t a=20
life after death, we start to talk about things like reincarnation, premort=
al=20
existence or about heaven and hell. But what about the heaven and hell in t=
his=20
life? Aren't we ignoring a heaven in this life, for us and for others. If a=
=20
religion or a religious book fails to provide a heaven in this very life an=
d in=20
this very mortal word, how may we be able to believe that it may be able to=
=20
provide a heaven in the next lives? I don't understand this fundamental fac=
t.=20
Therefore, let us bring our feet on the ground and stop flying in the=20
"<I>heavens"</I> as many religious people do, and try to make this world fi=
rst a=20
better place to live, with the help of these fundamental principles describ=
ed in=20
the Vedas and Vedic scriptures.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>For example, many among us do endless Japa and Pujaas =
to Lord=20
Krishna. But have we ever listened to Him, what he says and which sort of=20
devotee he really loves? Have we ever tried to be something similar to the=
=20
description of a devotee given by Lord Krishna Himself? If yes, then indeed=
 we=20
are a better devotee than those who just keep on chanting the name of Lord=
=20
Krishna and violating the rules described by Him.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>What are those rules and what is the description of Hi=
s=20
beloved devotee.</P>
<P class=3DMsoBodyText>"He hates no beings, is friendly and compassionate; =
he is=20
rid of all sense of possession and of egoism; he is the same in pleasure an=
d=20
pain, and always forgives." (Gita 12.13)</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><I>"From him the world does not agitate, neither he is=
=20
agitated from the world" (Gita 12.15)<?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></I></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>etc.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I'm sure I wouldn't be able to describe in detail each=
=20
qualities Lord Krishna has mentioned here, and how are they essential for t=
he=20
happiness of everybody, and with that, our own selves. But still I would li=
ke to=20
state that if a person wants to gain happiness, for the first he should nev=
er=20
forget that every individual, including his very own self, is a part of a=20
collective society, i.e. no one can become happy in it's true significance,=
 by=20
making other people unhappy. Individual thinking, I mean selfish thinking, =
is a=20
quality of an undeveloped mentality and collective thinking or thinking not=
 for=20
one's own self, but for the well-being of the entire society, is indeed a=20
quality of a highly developed mentality. These scriptures, if understood=20
correctly, help us to develop our mentality.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>If we try to visualize the scriptures with this view, =
I'm=20
highly convinced that a day would come when these scriptures would be highl=
y=20
essential for the further existence of humanity. Otherwise, the hearts and=
=20
brains of flesh would change in to the hearts and brains of steel and iron,=
 as=20
you might have read in many science fictions.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>However much work has to be done in this field and ind=
eed=20
much work has also been done. But still one formula is being ignored consta=
ntly,=20
<B>"science/technology + spirituality/obedience of Dharma =3D=20
peace/happiness/further existence of humanity."<o:p></o:p></B></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Let us pray to the supreme almighty Lord, that he may =
give us=20
the ability to work in this field with <I>cutting the edge of our=20
powers.<o:p></o:p></I></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I wish you all the best,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Siddhartha</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<BR>Om=20
Shantih, Shantih, Shantih, Om<BR>(Om Peace, Peace, Peace, Om)<BR>=B0 "da da=
 da"=20
(Control your self! Give to others! Have compassion towards<BR>all! - The t=
hree=20
Vedic commandments)<BR>=B0 =B0 my e-mail address: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:siddharthakrishna at v...">siddharthakrishna at v...</A><B=
R>=B0 =B0 =B0=20
Like to read about Vedism? please visit:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/vedism/">http://www.geocities.com/vedism/<=
/A>=20
or<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://members.nbci.com/siddharthakrishna/">http://members.nbci.com=

>From "Siddhartha Krishna" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Reply-To: "Siddhartha Krishna" <siddharthakrishna at v...>
Subject: What is Sannyasa according to Shankaracharya?
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 05:47:10 +0530
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From: "Siddhartha Krishna" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C0B681.5DEE2B20
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=20
What is Sannyasa according to Shankaracharya?=20

Does Acharya Shankara Reject Dandin Sannyasins?

=20

Thought it is very ridiculous to conclude something about such a great thin=
g called Sannyasa in such a small article, but still the statements are so =
evident and clear, that they really might be able to give us quite a clear =
view of Shankara's philosophy behind Sannyasa.

An analyze in to a paragraph of Bhagavan Shankara's commentary on Brihadara=
nyakopanishad (which is undoubtedly one of his most sublime works) 3-5-1.

"vyutthAya bhikshAcharyam......lingavidhaanam ca" (Page 813-814, Kailas Bra=
hmavidya Publications, Rishikesh).

I would try to give a translation of that passage,=20

It starts thus:

=20

"Opponent- In Parivraajya Ashram (i.e. in Sannyasa Ashrama) means, like Yaj=
nopavita (sacred thread) etc. and signs (like Danda) are prescribed by the =
Shruti and Smriti. Therefore, though even these are included in eshanaa (wo=
rldly desires), they shouldn't be abandoned."

Let me state here, that by Shruti and Smriti the opponent means the followi=
ng ones,

1. "while entering the fourth Ashram, a person should live the old Yajnopav=
ita and take a new one" 2. "He should bear Danda and Kamandalu".

=20

To this, Bhagavan Shankara's answer is,

=20

"No, that sort of Parivraajya (sannyasa) is a different one from this one (=
about which we are talking), which is obtained after the abandonment of all=
 worldly desires and is obtained by the same person, who has obtained self-=
realization..........

The Parivraajya, which is in a form of Ashrama is different from this (one =
we are talking about), and is a means of Brahma Loka. Shruti and Smriti pre=
scribed that sort of Sannyasa."

=20

(I'm sorry, if my translation sounds a bit strange, I have tried it in a hu=
rry).

=20

The quintessence is as followes,

=20

There are two types of Sannyasa, A. The transcending from the three (eshana=
a) worldly desires and self-realization, this is the highest state of Sanny=
asa. B. The well-known one, which is called the fourth Ashrama.

This makes it very clear that Shankara's Sannyasa is different from Chaturt=
ha Ashrama.

The Difference lies also in the following points (according to that passage=
).

After obtaining the sannyasa A, a person becomes Jivan Mukta and after init=
iated in to the fourth Ashrama, i.e. in the sannyasa B, a person obtains Br=
ahma Loka etc. fruits (which are indeed inferior to Jivan Mukti obtained by=
 A).

A has no outer signs, but B has a danda (stick) and Yajnopavita etc. as out=
er signs.

These statements of Shankaracharya tell us that at least according to him, =
a person initiated in the fourth Ashrama, has a Danda, Yajnopavita (not on =
the body, but on the danda, as the dandai sannyasins do have today also) an=
d obtains Brahma Loka.

And the Sannyasa meant by Shankaracharya himself is a higher state, and it =
doesn't bear any outer signs, danda etc. More than that, he has very clearl=
y rejected them for a Sannyasin.

Then, what about Shankaracharya's pictures and the danda in the hands of th=
e existing Shankaracharyas? Why is Shankaracharya pictured in a state, whic=
h he himself states to be inferior? I'm very perplexed. Is there any schola=
r in here, to give me an appropriate answer?

Well, to tell you, Shankaracharya's Murti in my temple bears no Danda.

Thanks,

Siddhartha Krishna

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Om Shantih, Shantih, Shantih, Om
(Om Peace, Peace, Peace, Om)
=B0 "da da da" (Control your self! Give to others! Have compassion towards
all! - The three Vedic commandments)
=B0 =B0 my e-mail address: siddharthakrishna at v...
=B0 =B0 =B0 Like to read about Vedism? please visit:
http://www.geocities.com/vedism/ or
http://members.nbci.com/siddharthakrishna/

------=_NextPart_000_00DB_01C0B681.5DEE2B20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&n=
bsp;</FONT>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>What is Sannyasa according to Shankaracharya? </P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Does Acharya Shankara Reject Dandin Sannyasins?</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <?xml:namespace prefix =3D o ns =3D=20
"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Thought it is very ridiculous to conclude something ab=
out=20
such a great thing called Sannyasa in such a small article, but still the=20
statements are so evident and clear, that they really might be able to give=
 us=20
quite a clear view of Shankara's philosophy behind Sannyasa.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>An analyze in to a paragraph of Bhagavan Shankara's=20
commentary on Brihadaranyakopanishad (which is undoubtedly one of his most=
=20
sublime works) 3-5-1.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>"vyutthAya bhikshAcharyam......lingavidhaanam ca" (Pag=
e=20
813-814, Kailas Brahmavidya Publications, Rishikesh).</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>I would try to give a translation of that passage, </P=
>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>It starts thus:</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>"Opponent- In Parivraajya Ashram (i.e. in Sannyasa Ash=
rama)=20
means, like Yajnopavita (sacred thread) etc. and signs (like Danda) are=20
prescribed by the Shruti and Smriti. Therefore, though even these are inclu=
ded=20
in eshanaa (worldly desires), they shouldn't be abandoned."</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Let me state here, that by Shruti and Smriti the oppon=
ent=20
means the following ones,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>1. "while entering the fourth Ashram, a person should =
live=20
the old Yajnopavita and take a new one" 2. "He should bear Danda and=20
Kamandalu".</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>To this, Bhagavan Shankara's answer is,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>"No, that sort of Parivraajya (sannyasa) is a differen=
t one=20
from this one (about which we are talking), which is obtained after the=20
abandonment of all worldly desires and is obtained by the same person, who =
has=20
obtained self-realization..........</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The Parivraajya, which is in a form of Ashrama is diff=
erent=20
from this (one we are talking about), and is a means of Brahma Loka. Shruti=
 and=20
Smriti prescribed that sort of Sannyasa."</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>(I'm sorry, if my translation sounds a bit strange, I =
have=20
tried it in a hurry).</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The quintessence is as followes,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>There are two types of Sannyasa, A. The transcending f=
rom the=20
three (eshanaa) worldly desires and self-realization, this is the highest s=
tate=20
of Sannyasa. B. The well-known one, which is called the fourth Ashrama.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>This makes it very clear that Shankara's Sannyasa is=20
different from Chaturtha Ashrama.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>The Difference lies also in the following points (acco=
rding=20
to that passage).</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>After obtaining the sannyasa A, a person becomes Jivan=
 Mukta=20
and after initiated in to the fourth Ashrama, i.e. in the sannyasa B, a per=
son=20
obtains Brahma Loka etc. fruits (which are indeed inferior to Jivan Mukti=20
obtained by A).</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>A has no outer signs, but B has a danda (stick) and=20
Yajnopavita etc. as outer signs.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>These statements of Shankaracharya tell us that at lea=
st=20
according to him, a person initiated in
   the fourth Ashrama, has a Danda,=20
Yajnopavita (not on the body, but on the danda, as the dandai sannyasins do=
 have=20
today also) and obtains Brahma Loka.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>And the Sannyasa meant by Shankaracharya himself is a =
higher=20
state, and it doesn't bear any outer signs, danda etc. More than that, he h=
as=20
very clearly rejected them for a Sannyasin.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Then, what about Shankaracharya's pictures and the dan=
da in=20
the hands of the existing Shankaracharyas? Why is Shankaracharya pictured i=
n a=20
state, which he himself states to be inferior? I'm very perplexed. Is there=
 any=20
scholar in here, to give me an appropriate answer?</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Well, to tell you, Shankaracharya's Murti in my temple=
 bears=20
no Danda.</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks,</P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Siddhartha Krishna</P></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>------------------------------------------------------------------=
-------<BR>Om=20
Shantih, Shantih, Shantih, Om<BR>(Om Peace, Peace, Peace, Om)<BR>=B0 "da da=
 da"=20
(Control your self! Give to others! Have compassion towards<BR>all! - The t=
hree=20
Vedic commandments)<BR>=B0 =B0 my e-mail address: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:siddharthakrishna at v...">siddharthakrishna at v...</A><B=
R>=B0 =B0 =B0=20
Like to read about Vedism? please visit:<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.geocities.com/vedism/">http://www.geocities.com/vedism/<=
/A>=20
or<BR><A=20
href=3D"http://members.nbci.com/siddharthakrishna/">http://members.nbci.com=

Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 08:04:59 -0800 (PST)
>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Subject: yugAdi (Re: bhaNe shivAnanda swAmi)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


Jaldhar:

This is my understanding:

Depending on where you were yugAdi was on 25th or 26th of this month.
And it is not solar, but lunar (chandramAna)

Solar new year comes when Sun moves meSha and it happens during April
14th. And currently Sun is still in miina. Most of India follows what
is called chandramAna system, to my knowledge only people from Tamil
Nadu and Kerala, follow sUryamAna system.

Here is the panchanga for 25th (Austin) you see that at 6:00am itself
sukla paxam prathama is in progress and more than a third of it is over
and the Jovian year vR^iSha has already started (according to
chandramAna system).



 Pancanga based on the Suryasiddhanta
 Day requested = AD 2001 3 25
 JD (at noon) = 2451994 Sunday
 Local latitude = 30.3
 Requested time = 6h: 0m
===================================================================
 Nirayana True Longitude
 Sun 11s 10d 56' 56"
 Moon 11s 15d 25' 53"
 Mercury 10s 18d 52' 42"
 Venus 10s 27d 14' 35"
 Mars 7s 21d 38' 36"
 Jupiter 1s 16d 18' 41"
 Saturn 0s 27d 4' 43"
 Candrocca 9s 25d 14' 35"
 Rahu 2s 21d 17' 6"
 Local sunrise = 5h 58m
 ayanamsa = 22d 31m
 Jovian(North) = jaya(28)
 Jovian(South) = vRSa(15)
 Lunar Month = Caitra
 Paksha = S 1 (fraction = 0.373)
 Solar masa/day = Mina /12
 samkranti on = 2001/ 3/14
 samkranti at = 5h:48m
 naksatra = U-bhadrapada
 karana = kiMstughna
 yoga = brahman


Others can correct me if I am wrong. I find this perl script very
useful, as I can say the sa.nkalpa everyday with all details including
yoga and karana.

Ravi


--- "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <jaldhar at b...> wrote:
> Today is Yugadi, the bginning of the solar new year (Shalivahana
> Shaka
> 1923) and the start of Chaitra Navaratri.
>
> My turn to ask a question: In the arati to Mataji, is the line in
> the
> title. Is anything known about this Swami Shivananda? Obviously it
> is
> not the modern-day founder of the Divine Life Society.
>
> --
> Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...>


=====
ambaaL daasan

Ravi

sharaNAgata raxakI nivEyani sadA ninnu nammiti mInAxI

http://www.ambaa.org/ http://www.advaita-vedanta.org

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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Re: What is Sannyasa according to Shankaracharya?
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:54:51 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


>From: Siddhartha Krishna <siddharthakrishna at V...>
>
>What is Sannyasa according to Shankaracharya?
>
>Does Acharya Shankara Reject Dandin Sannyasins?
>

This January, I was in Prayag during the Mahakumbh. While I was there, I
happened to see a documentary on Dandi Swamis (I am presuming that these are
the Dandi Sannyasis). According to their tradition, they trace their
foundations to Adi Shankaracharya. Apparently, there was a confusion amongst
Sannyasis at one point in our history and there was no way of knowing which
Sannyasis were Brahmins and which were not. The Dandi Swamis are all
Brahmins. They carry a staff (Danda) and never let it touch the ground,
ever. They have rituals of initiation into the Dandi order etc and follow
the Shankaracharyas.

>
>
>An analyze in to a paragraph of Bhagavan Shankara's commentary on
>Brihadaranyakopanishad (which is undoubtedly one of his most sublime works)
>3-5-1.
>
>"vyutthAya bhikshAcharyam......lingavidhaanam ca" (Page 813-814, Kailas
>Brahmavidya Publications, Rishikesh).
>
>
>"Opponent- In Parivraajya Ashram (i.e. in Sannyasa Ashrama) means, like
>Yajnopavita (sacred thread) etc. and signs (like Danda) are prescribed by
>the Shruti and Smriti. Therefore, though even these are included in eshanaa
>(worldly desires), they shouldn't be abandoned."
>
>Let me state here, that by Shruti and Smriti the opponent means the
>following ones,
>
>1. "while entering the fourth Ashram, a person should live the old
>Yajnopavita and take a new one" 2. "He should bear Danda and Kamandalu".
>
>To this, Bhagavan Shankara's answer is,
>
>
>
>"No, that sort of Parivraajya (sannyasa) is a different one from this one
>(about which we are talking), which is obtained after the abandonment of
>all worldly desires and is obtained by the same person, who has obtained
>self-realization..........
>
>The Parivraajya, which is in a form of Ashrama is different from this (one
>we are talking about), and is a means of Brahma Loka. Shruti and Smriti
>prescribed that sort of Sannyasa."
>
>
>There are two types of Sannyasa, A. The transcending from the three
>(eshanaa) worldly desires and self-realization, this is the highest state
>of Sannyasa. B. The well-known one, which is called the fourth Ashrama.
>
>This makes it very clear that Shankara's Sannyasa is different from
>Chaturtha Ashrama.
>
>The Difference lies also in the following points (according to that
>passage).
>
>After obtaining the sannyasa A, a person becomes Jivan Mukta and after
>initiated in to the fourth Ashrama, i.e. in the sannyasa B, a person
>obtains Brahma Loka etc. fruits (which are indeed inferior to Jivan Mukti
>obtained by A).
>
>A has no outer signs, but B has a danda (stick) and Yajnopavita etc. as
>outer signs.
>
>These statements of Shankaracharya tell us that at least according to him,
>a person initiated in the fourth Ashrama, has a Danda, Yajnopavita (not on
>the body, but on the danda, as the dandai sannyasins do have today also)
>and obtains Brahma Loka.
>

As far as I know, Sannyas is an ashram. Adi Shankara entered into it just as
people enter into it these days. There is no difference in Adi Shankar's
sannyas and the Chaturth Ashram.

While entering into Sannyas, one enters into one of four statuses - Apaat,
X, Hansa, Paramhansa. I am forgetting what X is. Paramhansa is the highest
order. Another division I have heard of within the fourth Ashram is of two
types : Vidvat Sannyas and Vidvisha Sannyasa. Vidvat Sannyas is of the type
Rishi Yajnavalkya entered into, where he had already achieved what was to be
achived, and still entered into Sannyas. The Vidvisha type is entered into
by those seeking liberation.

AFAIK, there are differences between Advaita and Sri Vaishnava and Dvaita
monks because of the role of karma each percieves in one's development. That
is perhaps why Advaita monks do not wear the Shikha and Yajnopavit. Brahma
loka is obtained by excellent karmas and meditation on Saguna Brahman. It is
not necessarily the result of Sannyas.


I have heard of not heard of there being a Sannyas wihout an initiation. And
initiation would mean entering the fourth ashrama.

ashish


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>From "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>
Subject: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:01:33 -0500
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ashish Chandra" <ramkisno at H...>


While listening to Sri Rudram, I heard an invocation to GaNapati. It went
like "Om. GaNaanaam GaNapatim bhavaam...". Does anyone know what the whole
mantra is and where it is from.

The Rishi of Rudram is Aghor. Are the Aghor babas of today his followers?

There are differences in the Purusha Suktam renedered on the CD I have (by
YN Sharma and HA Shastry) and the one that is available on the Sanskrit
Documents site. Does anyone having this CD know which Veda is the rendition
from. The one on the sanskrit site is from Taittiriya Shakha of Yajur Veda.
I would have thought that the one on the CD would also be from Taittiriya
Shakha.

Are there any teachers of Madhyandina Shakha of SYV in Dallas Area?

thanks
ashish

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>From "Mandar Khiste" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:31:36 -0600
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Mandar Khiste" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


Hi:

I think this is the verse you must be referring to:

OM gaNaanaa.n tvaa gaNapatiM havaamahe
kaviM kaviinaamupamashravastamam.h |
jyeshhTharaajaM brahmaNaaM brahmaNaspata
aa naH shrR^iNvannuutibhiH siidasaadanam.h ||

And I think it is from the Bramhanaspati Sukta...but not very sure.

I have come across two different versions of the Purusha Sukta. I belong to
the Shukla Yajurveda Shakha and have a very old copy of the Shukla
Yajurvediya Shri Rudradhyay. In one of the chapters, it has the full Purusha
Sukta divided into two distinct anuvaaks with no overlap. The prathamonuvak
has 16 distinct shlokas. Each shloka is used in the performance of the
shodashopchar puja.

I also have a copy of the Purusha Sukta published by the Chinmay mission. In
this, in addition to the 16 shlokas, there are a few shlokas repeated from
the dwitiyonuvak. Also, the serial order of the shlokas is different.
Thanks.

Mandar


----Original Message Follows----
From: Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
Reply-To: List for advaita vedanta as taught by Shri Shankara
<ADVAITA-L at b...>
To: ADVAITA-L at L...
Subject: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:01:33 -0500

While listening to Sri Rudram, I heard an invocation to GaNapati. It went
like "Om. GaNaanaam GaNapatim bhavaam...". Does anyone know what the whole
mantra is and where it is from.

The Rishi of Rudram is Aghor. Are the Aghor babas of today his followers?

There are differences in the Purusha Suktam renedered on the CD I have (by
YN Sharma and HA Shastry) and the one that is available on the Sanskrit
Documents site. Does anyone having this CD know which Veda is the rendition
from. The one on the sanskrit site is from Taittiriya Shakha of Yajur Veda.
I would have thought that the one on the CD would also be from Taittiriya
Shakha.

Are there any teachers of Madhyandina Shakha of SYV in Dallas Area?

thanks
ashish

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>From Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 13:18:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: Anand Hudli <anandhudli at h...>


On Tue, 27 Mar 2001 12:01:33 -0500, Ashish Chandra <ramkisno at H...>
wrote:

>While listening to Sri Rudram, I heard an invocation to GaNapati. It went
>like "Om. GaNaanaam GaNapatim bhavaam...". Does anyone know what the whole
>mantra is and where it is from.
>
 This is from the R^ig Veda saMhitA (2.23), although it occurs in other
 Vedas too. Please see for a brief explanation of this mantra in
 an article of Ganesha that I posted quite some time ago:

 http://www.escribe.com/religion/advaita/m489.html


>The Rishi of Rudram is Aghor. Are the Aghor babas of today his followers?

Sorry I dont know the answer to this question.

>
>There are differences in the Purusha Suktam renedered on the CD I have (by
>YN Sharma and HA Shastry) and the one that is available on the Sanskrit
>Documents site. Does anyone having this CD know which Veda is the rendition
>from. The one on the sanskrit site is from Taittiriya Shakha of Yajur Veda.
>I would have thought that the one on the CD would also be from Taittiriya
>Shakha.
>

If you are referring to YN Sharma and Shastry's CD, I think they should
have chanted it according to the Krishna Yajur Veda version (taittirIya
AraNyaka). I looked at the one at the Sanskrit documents list. It is
confusing because it is listed under R^ig Veda but then the sUkta appears
to be the Krishna Yajur Vedic version minus the uttaranArAyaNa.
Anyway there are (at least ) two versions of the PuruSha sUkta, one in
the R^ig Veda saMhitA (10.90) and the other, as I said above, in the
Yajur Veda. The two versions have some differences which can be
confusing to one who tries to "switch" between them or try to learn
them both. I think learning one version, the one belonging to your
shAkhA, is sufficient.

>Are there any teachers of Madhyandina Shakha of SYV in Dallas Area?

Sorry, I dont know the answer to this question too. In fact, I have
never heard of shukla Yajur veda teachers in the US. This could be a
good incentive to start Vedic pAThashAlA

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:22:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Khemraj Shrikrishnadass is online
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


I don't remember if I mentioned this before but even if it did it wouldn't
hurt to give them another plug. M/s Khemraj Shrikrishnadass are well
known in the Sanskrit world as one of the top publishers. They now have a
website at http://www.khemraj.com/

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:22:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: What is Sannyasa according to Shankaracharya?
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Ashish Chandra wrote:

> As far as I know, Sannyas is an ashram. Adi Shankara entered into it just as
> people enter into it these days. There is no difference in Adi Shankar's
> sannyas and the Chaturth Ashram.
>

All worldly manifestations are of a lesser reality than Brahman -- even
sannyasa and the Vedas themselves. Thus sannyasa as Shankaracharya
understands it is something beyond the physical attributes of the fourth
ashram.

> While entering into Sannyas, one enters into one of four statuses - Apaat,
> X, Hansa, Paramhansa. I am forgetting what X is.

According to Swami Vidyaranyas' Jivanmuktiviveka (following Manusmrti) the
four types are bahudaka, kuchitaka, hamsa, and paramhamsa. apat refers to
the "emergency" sannyasa people take when they are about to die.

> Paramhansa is the highest
> order. Another division I have heard of within the fourth Ashram is of two
> types : Vidvat Sannyas and Vidvisha Sannyasa. Vidvat Sannyas is of the type
> Rishi Yajnavalkya entered into, where he had already achieved what was to be
> achived, and still entered into Sannyas. The Vidvisha type is entered into
> by those seeking liberation.
>

I may be responsible for some confusion here. It was pointed out to me
that the proper word is vividisha not vidvisha as I used erroneously in my
earlier posts on Jivanmuktiviveka.

The paramhamsa is the type of the vidvan -- the knower of Brahman. The
other three types are vividisha -- seekers. As they are not yet
enlightened they are still subject to some restrictions though not as much
as the grhasthas.

> AFAIK, there are differences between Advaita and Sri Vaishnava and Dvaita
> monks because of the role of karma each percieves in one's development. That
> is perhaps why Advaita monks do not wear the Shikha and Yajnopavit. Brahma
> loka is obtained by excellent karmas and meditation on Saguna Brahman. It is
> not necessarily the result of Sannyas.
>

Those who seek moksha but fail in the attempt in this lifetime will be
reborn in the higher worlds such as Brahmaloka where presumably there will
be less interuptions and obstacles. In order to achieve brahmaloka by
means of karma and upasana they too must be performed for the sake of
moksha not for self-interest. So karmayogis also fall in this category.

>
> I have heard of not heard of there being a Sannyas wihout an initiation. And
> initiation would mean entering the fourth ashrama.
>

If one has renounced all worldly desires (no just sitting on your comfy
sofa and proclaiming "I am God") then ipso facto one is a sannyasi
regardless of whether one has had a formal diksha or not. But without the
grace of a sadguru acheiving moksha is likely to be a very hit or miss
affair.

To get back to the original question, I think the reason Shankaracharya
and his followers bore the danda even though ultimately they did not
believe it was necessary is because Advaita Vedanta is not just a nice
theory. It is also a practical means to acheive its' goals. Assume a
professor of mathematics was teaching a child. He would not just be able
to launch into calculus etc. He would have to start with addition,
subtraction etc. and work his way up. It would be pointless for him to go
over elementary arithmetic but vital for the child to progress. He can't
just say "I'm a great mathematician. Be like me." In the same way
Vedanta has proposed something which is not easily graspable with everyday
knowledge. Most people will be content to remain where they are. But
some will desire to know more. How to get from point A to point B? The
guru has to come down to the students level and lift him up every step of
the way. From materialistic to spiritual. From karma and upasana for
self-interest to karmayoga -- purely as duty. From karmayoga to sannyasa
and finally from sannyasa to jnana. It is the same with the
Chandramoulishvara puja the Shankaracharya do daily. Why is it necessary
for someone who knows "shivo'ham" to do an external puja to Shiva
Bhagawan? It is to guide the grhasthas and others for whom such pujas are
a must. This is why they are called jagadgurus, their guidance is
tailored to all types of people.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:23:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Mandar Khiste wrote:

> Hi:
>
> I think this is the verse you must be referring to:
>
> OM gaNaanaa.n tvaa gaNapatiM havaamahe
> kaviM kaviinaamupamashravastamam.h |
> jyeshhTharaajaM brahmaNaaM brahmaNaspata
> aa naH shrR^iNvannuutibhiH siidasaadanam.h ||
>
> And I think it is from the Bramhanaspati Sukta...but not very sure.
>

No it's slightly different. The one Ashish mentioned is 23.19 in the
Vajasaneyi Samhita.

gaNAnAntvA gaNapatiM havAmahe
ppriyANANatvA ppriyapatiM havAmahe
nidhinAntvA nidhipatiM havAmahe vvaso mama ||
AhamajAnigarbhadhamAttvamajAsigarbhadham ||

Note Ganapati is actually Bhagavan Rudra Himself. He has only delegated
this role to His son.

> I have come across two different versions of the Purusha Sukta. I belong to
> the Shukla Yajurveda Shakha and have a very old copy of the Shukla
> Yajurvediya Shri Rudradhyay. In one of the chapters, it has the full Purusha
> Sukta divided into two distinct anuvaaks with no overlap. The prathamonuvak
> has 16 distinct shlokas. Each shloka is used in the performance of the
> shodashopchar puja.
>

The second sukta is called Uttaranarayana sukta. Together the two
adhyayas make up the 31st adhyaya in the Vajasaneyi Samhita.


--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:34:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: yugAdi (Re: bhaNe shivAnanda swAmi)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Ravisankar S. Mayavaram wrote:

> Jaldhar:
>
> This is my understanding:
>
> Depending on where you were yugAdi was on 25th or 26th of this month.
> And it is not solar, but lunar (chandramAna)
>

Thanks. I was under the impression that while Vikrama samvata is purely
lunar, Shalivahana shaka is luni-solar and Yugadi (The Tamil
pronounciation is Ugadi is it not?) was based on the vernal equinox a
solar event. But it just occurred to me that the Vernal equinox was on
the 20th.

[...]
>
> Others can correct me if I am wrong. I find this perl script very
> useful, as I can say the sa.nkalpa everyday with all details including
> yoga and karana.
>

I'm in the process of taking a look at it. The author seems to have been
learning perl at the same time so the code is a little hard to follow but
it seems accurate. Maybe Anand could comment on its' accuracy?

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 14:49:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Sri Rudram, Purusha Suktam etc
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Jaldhar H. Vyas" <owner-advaita-l at L...>


On Tue, 27 Mar 2001, Anand Hudli wrote:

> Sorry, I dont know the answer to this question too. In fact, I have
> never heard of shukla Yajur veda teachers in the US.

Most of what I know of Vedic mantras I learned in America but my teacher
has since returned to Gujarat.

> This could be a
> good incentive to start Vedic pAThashAlA here!
>

I think this is going to be the vital task for the various Hindu
communities here in the coming years. In Jersey City there is a school
called Al-Ghazali School which was started by Bangaldeshi and Pakistani
Muslims to teach Koran etc. alongside the regular academic subjects.
They recognize that if their religion is to survive in a foreign
environment, education is the key. We are in general better-educated and
more prosperous than they are so why can't we get our act together and do
the same?

A local company has the slogan "An educated consumer is our best
customer." The same principle applies here. The problem Gujaratis and
North Indians face is the low level of Dharmic literacy of the average
person. When the yajaman can't tell the difference between correct Vedc
pronounciation and babble, (or worse, showy theatrics) where is the
incentive for the Shastris to improve their own level of knowledge? In
contrast amongst the South Indian communities, there is in general a
higher level of familiarity with shastras even amongst non-"professionals"
and as a result, your Shastris tend to be more learned. Which in turn
means the next generation retains more of their culture. We have to get
that feedback loop going.

To anyone reading this who is active in their local community please think
about this.

--
Jaldhar H. Vyas <jaldhar at b...

>From "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2001 11:30:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Notes on BSB I-i-4-1E
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Sender: owner-advaita-l at b...
From: "Ravisankar S. Mayavaram" <miinalochanii at y...>


Note: I formatted the file little bit (using Emacs Esc-q to mend some
of the broken paragraphs). Author of this post is K. Sadananda and it
was forwarded to me by Sunder Hattangadi.

Ravi
--
Author: K. Sadananda (these notes are copyrighted)


 Notes on BSB I-i-4-1E

sadaashiva samaarambhaa.n sha~Nkaraachaarya madhyamam.h |
asmadaachaarya paryantaa.n vande guruparamparaam.h ||

I prostrate to the lineage of teachers starting from Lord Shiva who
is ever auspicious and with Bhagavaan Shankara in the middle and all
the way up to my own teacher.

vaatsalya ruupa.n triguNairatiitaM
aananda saandram amalairnidhaanam.h .|
shrii chinmayaananda guro praNiitaM
sadaa bhaje.aha.n tava paada pa~Nkajam.h ||

Who is the very embodiment of motherly affection who is beyond the
three guNa-s, who is full with bliss, and who is the very source of
purity who is the best among the teachers, Shree Chinmayaananda, to
his lotus feet I (sadaa) always prostrate.
---------------------------------------------------
 samanvaya adhyaaya - I
 spashhTa brahma li~Nga vaakya samanvaya paada- i
 samanvaya adhikaraNam.h .-4
 suutra: tat tu samanvayaat.h .-1E




Notes on BSB I-I-4-1E

Now siddhaanta - Shankara's refutation of the above puurvapaksha.
We will go point by point.

1. Taking puurvapakshi's argument that all siddhabodhaka vaakyams lead
to knowledge, which is useless, while kaaryabodhaka vaakyams lead to
action which, is useful, Shankara says yes you are right. But it is
only a general rule, but there are exceptions to the rule. By reading
about tennis or swimming, I do not get much benefit. Only by playing
or swimming, I get the benefit. Hence the general rule is kevala
j~naanam na purushhaartha saadhakam. However, there are several cases
where kevala j~naanam or mere knowledge alone without requiring any
action gives the benefit. Wherever there is a problem caused by
ignorance, then mere knowledge alone can solve the problem. In the
case of disease, the problem is not centered on ignorance, but some
germs etc and therefore the solution to the problem involves taking an
antidote to the germs or antibiotic. But for ignorance caused
problems the knowledge alone is the solution. Our famous example is
rajjusarpavat, fear arising from the error of superimposed snake.
Bhaya kampaadikam sarvam are caused by the snake which appears to be
there only because of ignorance of rope, rajju aj~naanam. What homa
one needs to perform to get rid of the snake? No karma is required, no
upaasanaa is required, what is required is rope-knowledge. rajju
j~naanaat rajju aj~naana nivR^ittiH , rajju aj~naana nivR^ityaa sarpa
adhyaasa nivR^ittiH, sarpa adhyaasa nivR^ityaa bhayakampaadi
nivR^ittiH . By the knowledge of the rope, the knowledge of the
existence of serpent is gone, by that the associated fear etc is gone.
Therefore in all such cases kevala j~naana maatrena purushaartha
siddhiH , only knowledge alone accomplished the result and not the
action. Therefore sidhhabodhaka vaakyaani pramaaNaani,
saprayojanatvaat, naayam sarpaH iti vaakyavat. Since they produce
results they are useful and hence are pramaaNa vaakyam-s just as in
the rope- snake example. Hence whenever the problems are centered on
ignorance, then the siddhabodhaka vaakyam are directly useful and
hence are pramaaNa-s. If the problems are not centered on ignorance
then siddhabodhaka vaakyam-s need to be connected to kaaryabodhaka
vaakyam for them to give useful result. Hence one cannot apply a
general rule.

Now the question is do the vedaanta vaakyam-s come under this
exceptional category giving benefit directly or they must be connected
to kaaryabodhaka vaakyam-s as the puurvapakshii-s claim. A vedaantin
claims that all the siddhabodhaka vaakyam come under the exceptional
cases giving directly the utility prayojanam-s. For this Vedanta
itself is the pramaaNa since it makes it very clear that j~naana
maatreNa moksha phalam bhavati. One need not join this knowledge with
any kaaryabodhaka vaakyam since knowledge alone can give the moksha
which is the purushhaartha. Where it is said? Almost in every
upanishad this is mentioned.

1. Ishavasya Upanishad- shloka 7

 yasmin sarvaaNi bhuutaani aatmaa eva abhuut vijaanataH |
 tatra ko mohaH kaH shoka ekatvam anupashyataH ||

When a person clearly knows the aatmaa which is the substratum of
everything after that mere knowledge where is the grief and where is
the delusion? Hence j~naana maatreNa shoka moha niv^ittiH, sa.nsaara
niv^ittiH, moksha praaptiH | By mere knowledge grief, delusion and
sa.nsaara are gone, one gets liberated.

2 Kena Upanishad - shloka 2-4

 pratibodha-viditam matam amR^itatvam hi vindate |
 aatmanaa vindate viiryam vidyayaa vindate amR^itam.h ||

with the emphasis on vidyayaa vindate amR^itam, kevala j~naanamaatreNa
(by mere knowledge) a person attains immortality.

3. Katha upanishad shloka 2-2-12

 eko vashii sarva-bhuuta-antara-aatmaa
 ekam biijam bahudhaa yaH karoti |
 tam aatmastham ye anupashyanti dhiiraaH
 teshhaa.n sukha.n shaashvatam na itareshhaam.h ||

The one who clearly recognizes (anupasyanti) Brahman as the very
aatman, they will have eternal happiness and there is no other way
than through this knowledge ( na itareshhaam).

4. Prashna Upanishad:

The upanishad teacher, pippalaada, says in the end: 6-6

...tam vedyaM purushha.n veda yathaa maa vo mR^ityuH parivivyathaaH
iti |

After knowing Brahman(purushham) there will not be any suffering due
to death etc. One attains immortality.

The students in the end after learning, prostrate to the teacher and
prayerfully say: 6-8

.. asmaakam avidyaayaaH paraM paaraM taarayasi iti |
namaH parama R^ishhibhyo namaH parama R^ishhibhyaH ||

 Thus thanking the teacher they indicate that through knowledge they
have gained the Supreme.

5. Mundaka uanishad: 3-2-9

sa yo ha vai tat paramaM brahma veda brahma eva bhavati| na asya
abrahma-vit kule bhavati | tarati shoka.n | tarati paapmaanam | guhaa-
granthibhyo vimuktaH amR^itaH bhavati ||

Knower of Brahman becomes Brahman. In his lineage everyone will have
knowledge of Brahman. He is liberated from all the sorrows and all
the sins. Free from all ignorance, he attains liberation from death.

6. Mandukya Upanishad: mantra 12

sa.nvishati aatmanaa aatmaanam yaH evam veda |

One, saH, knows the aatmaa (paramaatmaa) by oneself (aatmanaa) yaH
evam veda - by knowledge alone.

7. Taittiriya Upanishad - Brahmanandavalli - 1-1

brahmavit aapnoti param.h | tat eshha abhyuktaa | satyam j~naanam
anantam
brahma | yo veda nihitam guhaayaam parame vyoman saH ashnute sarvaan
kaamaan
saha|

- thus yaH veda nihitam guhaayaam, the one who knows Brahman as the
aatmaa in the heart fulfils all the purushhaartha-s.

8. Aitareya Upanishad: 3-1-3

sarvam tat praj~naa-netram.h | praj~naane pratishhThitam.h | praj~naa-
netraH lokaH | praj~naa pratishhThaa | praj~naanaM brahma |

 This every thing is nothing but the vision of the consciousness or
knowledge. It is established in consciousness. It is the projection
of the consciousness. It is nothing but consciousness.

9. Chandogya Upanishad 7:1:3

tarati shokam aatmavit - the knower of aatma crosses over all the
sorrows - no need to do any action.

10. Brihadaranyaka Upanishad : janaka-yaaj~navalkya sa.nvaadana- 4-4-
12

aatmaanam chet vijaaniiyaat ayam asmi iti puurushhaH |
kim ichchhan kasya kaamaaya shariiram anusa.njvaret.h ||

For the one who has known the aatmaa, there-afterwards, what desire he
has, what action he has to do, and what suffering he will have to
undergo in life? - meaning none. (This mantra has been exhaustively
commented on by Shri Vidyaranya in his Panchadasi, 3-298)

11. Kaivalya Upanishad: 10.

sarva-bhuutastham aatmaanam sarva-bhuutaani cha aatmani |
sampashyan brahma parama.n yaati na anyena hetunaa ||

By merely knowing Brahman he attains moksha and by no other means (The
first line is repeated in Bhagavad Giita 6-31. The second line is
different - iikshyate yoga-yukta-aatmaa sarvatra sama darshanaH |)

12. Purusha-suukta: 7.

veda aham etaM purushaM mahaantam | aaditya-varna.n tamasaH tu paare
|
sarvaani ruupaani vichitya dhiiraH | .....
tam evam vidvaan amR^ita iha bhavati | na anyaH panthaaH ayanaaya
vidyate |

13. A slightly different version in Shvetashvatara Upanishad 3-8

veda aham etam purushhaM mahaantam
aaditya-varNam tamasaH parastaat.h |
tam eva
   viditvaa atimR^ityum eti
naanyaH panthaaH vidyate ayanaaya ||

knowing this Brahman alone who is resplendent like the sun and which
is beyond darkness of ignorance, one transcends death. There is no
other path than knowledge.

These are only examples taken one from each of the main upanishads.
There are many in each.

>From smR^iti pramaaNa- Gita B.G 5-15,16

aj~naanna aavR^itam j~naanam tena muhyanti jantavaH ||

j~naanena tu tat aj~naanam yeshhaam naashitam aatmanaH |
teshaam aadityavat j~naanam prakaashayati tat param.h ||

All the problems are caused by ignorance therefore what is required is
only j~naanam.

Thus both shruti pramaaNam and smR^iti pramaaNam declare that the
problem of human suffering is centered on ignorance and for such kind
of problems knowledge is the only solution and not action.

Hence Vedanta is siddha bodhaka vaakyam and it produces knowledge and
that mere knowledge we get purushaartha. Therefore vedaanta vaakyaani
pramaaNa bhuutaani.

This is response to the first point of the puurvapakshii.

********

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

aadityavat = like the sun
aadityavarnam = sun-like color [lustre]
aatmaivaa.abhuudvijaanataH| = aatmaa eva
aatmanaa = by oneself
aatmastham = abiding in the Soul
aatmavit = knower of Brahman
Aitareya = name of one of the major upanishads
amR^itam = immortal
amR^itatvam = immortality
anupashyataH = seeing
anusa.njvaret = suffer
asmaakam = our
asya = of this
avidyaayaaH = areas of ignorance
ayamasmiiti = [ayam asmi iti]
ayanaaya = for carrying
bhavati| = becomes
bhaya = fear
bhayakampaadi =[bhaya + kampa + aadi] fear and trembling and other
Brahmanandavalli = the section on Beatitude (Bliss of Brahman)
brahmavidaapnoti = [brahmavit aapnoti] the knower of Brahman attains
brahmavitkule = in the lineage of a knower of Brahman
ched = [chet] if
darshanaH = the school[s] of Philosophy
dhiiraaH = the wise
guhaagranthibhyo =
guha