Forwarded message from Marko Manninen
marko.manninen at HYRYNSALMI.NET
Fri Jun 23 12:42:39 CDT 2000
i sent this message week ago, but i'm not sure if it came to the list, so i
do it again from www site...
Many thanks for answers to the first part of letter, i'm going to consult
earlier posting and sites presicely. There is still some adjustments to
> > How Advaitas comments Caitanaya and the foretellings
> > of him in veda literature?
> There are no foretellings of Chaitanya in the shastras except in the
> imaginations of his followers.
These parts are interesting:
saptame gaura-varna-visnor ity aena sva-saktya
caikyam etya pratar avatirya saha svaih sva-manum siksayati.
In the Atharva-Veda Purusa-Bodini-Upanisad, it is said:
"In the seventh manvantara, in the beginning of the Kali-Yuga, the Supreme
Personality of Godhead will, accompanied by His own associates, descend in
a golden form to the earth. He will teach the chanting of His own names." (
itotham krta sannyaso'vatarisyami sa-guno nirvedo
niskamo bhu-girvanas tira-atho' lakanandayah kalau
gaura-varno dirghangah sarva-laksana-yukta isvara-
prarthito nija-rasasvado bhakta-rupo misrakhyo
In the Atharva Veda, the Supreme Person says:
I will descend on the earth after the passage of four thousand years in the
Kali-Age, [kalau catuh sahasrabdhopari] and before the passsage of five
thousand years [panca sahasra abhyantare].
I will come on the earth on the bank of the Ganges, [tira-sthah
alakanandayah]. I will be a tall and saintly Brahmana devotee. I will have
all the auspicious symptoms of an exalted person [dirghangah sarva-laksana-
I will exhibit renunciation. I will have all auspicious signs. I will be a
devotee, practicing bhakti yoga. I will taste the rasa of My own devotional
tathaham krta sannyaso bhu-girvano 'vatarisye
tire'lakanandayah punah punah isvara-prarthitah sa-
parivaro niralambo nirdhuteh kali-kalmasa-kavalita-
In the Sama Veda, the Supreme Lord says:
I shall come to the earth, accompanied by My associates, in a place by the
bank of the Ganges. I will advent to save the people who are afflicted and
devoured by the sins of the age of Kali. I will manifest as an avadhuta
If those passages belongs to veda and are correctly translated (i know very
little of it) who do you think was the real avatar of kali-age? I have
heard that former alvars are later fitted to prophecies. Is that possible
in this case too?
> > When guru-parampara was written up and when
> > Vyasa was living?
> Well each Guru remembers his teachers and their teachers etc. just as you
> I remember our parents, and grandparents, and great grandparents.
> According to shastras Vyasa Maharshi lived at the beginning of the
> Kaliyuga which would be almost 5,000 years ago. Whether one chooses to
> take this as a historical ruth or a mythic one is a different matter.
There is one interesting question too. Why Krishnas dead is pointed to year
3102? Where in veda or commentaries it is mentioned. Or is it so, that
kaliyuga is pointed to there first?
> > In which time the oldest BG has found,
> An actual written copy? I believe around the 12th century. There are
> quotes from the Gita in much more ancient works however.
Yes i mean actual copy, that is possible to see in museum etc. Both science
and religion should use each others to keep on Truth. Mutual understanding
> > How Advaitas translates BG 10:6?
> It says that the 7 sages and 4 Manus are born from Krishna Bhagawans
> mind and by his will. The 7 sages (Saptarshis) are the mind-born sons of
> Brahma. The are the founders of the Jnana marga. 4 Manus is a little
> more difficult because usually in the shastras they say there are 14
> Manus and we are in the cycle of the seventh, Manu Vaivasvata. In each
> world-cycle (Manvantara) Manu is the first man and the first king and
> establishes the Karma marga. Swami Madhusudan Saraswati suggests it
> should be read as maharshayah sapte, poorve chatvaro, manavastathaa
> 7 sages, the previous 4, and Manus. "The previous 4" would refer to the
> the four Sanatakumaras. They were also mind-born sons of Brahma and their
> father asked them to perform creation. But they refused and remained
> engrossed in the worship of God. So they are the founders of Bhakti
> marga. So the meaning of this verse is that Karma, Bhakti, and Jnana all
> have their origins and goal in Bhagawan.
This question was meant to deepen my knowledge of manvantaras. Following is
citing from T.Subba Row:
>> "The seven great Rishis, the four preceding Manus, partaking of my
nature, were born from my mind: from them sprang (was born) the human race
and the world."
He speaks of the sapta rishis and of the Manus as his manasaputras, or mind-
born sons, which they would be if he was the so-called Prajapati, who
appeared on this planet and commenced the work of evolution.
In all Puranas the Maharishis are said to be the mind-born sons of
Prajapati or Brahma, who was the first manifested being on this planet, and
who was called Swayambhuva, as he had neither father nor mother; he
commenced the creation of man by forming, or bringing into existence by his
own intellectual power, these Maharishis and these Manus. After this was
accomplished Prajapati disappeared from the scene; as stated in Manu-
Smriti, Swayambhuva thus disappeared after commencing the work of
evolution. He has not, however, yet disconnected himself altogether from
the group of humanity that has commenced to evolute on this planet, but is
still the overshadowing Logos or the manifested Eswara, who does interest
himself in the affairs of this planet and is in a position to incarnate as
an Avatar for the good of its population.
There is a peculiarity in this passage to which I must call your attention.
He speaks here of four Manus. Why does he speak of four? We are now in the
seventh Manwantara -- that of Vaivaswata. If he is speaking of the past
Manus, he ought to speak of six, but he only mentions four. In some
commentaries an attempt has been made to interpret this in a peculiar
The word "Chatwaraha" is separated from the word "Manavaha" and is made to
refer to Sanaka, Sanandana, Sanatkumara and Sanatsujata, who were also
included among the mind-born sons of Prajapati.
But this interpretation will lead to a most absurd conclusion, and make the
sentence contradict itself. The persons alluded to in the text have a
qualifying clause in the sentence. It is well known that Sanaka and the
other three refused to create, though the other sons had consented to do
so; therefore, in speaking of those persons from whom humanity has sprung
into existence, it would be absurd to include these four also in the list.
The passage must be interpreted without splitting the compound into two
nouns. The number of Manus will be then four, and the statement would
contradict the Puranic account, though it would be in harmony with the
occult theory. You will recollect that Mr. Sinnett has stated that we are
now in the fifth root race. Each root race is considered as the santhathi
of a particular Manu. Now the fourth root race has passed, or in other
words there have been four past Manus. There is another point to be
considered in connection with this subject. It is stated in Manusmriti that
the first Manu (Swayabhuva) created seven Manus. This seems to be the total
number of Manus according to this Smriti. It is not alleged that there was,
or would be another batch of Manus created, or to be created at some other
But the Puranic account makes the number of Manus fourteen. This is a
subject, which, I believe, requires a considerable amount of attention at
your hands; it is no doubt a very interesting one, and I request such of
you as have the required time at your disposal, to try and find out how
this confusion has arisen. The commentators try to get the number fourteen
out of Manu. Of course an ingenious pandit can get anything out of
anything, but if you will go into the matter deeply, it is quite possible
we may be able to find out how the whole mistake has arisen, and if there
is any mistake or not. <<
Is this making any sense?
> > I have studied many ways (practically and holy scriptures) different
> > religions and trying to find something real in them and asked what is
> > truth behind them. Something real is that human mind (lower manas/ego)
> > seems to be the destroyer of reality. Destroy the destroyer is serious
> > for seekers, but then how the individual soul can serve (bhakti) the
> > Supreme Soul of Universe?
> By understanding that this Supreme Soul is in truth identical to his own
How does above understanding differ from understanding that we have now? I
mean, how it affects on normal life and spiritual life? Where derives
differences between jivanmuktas, in teaching and works?
> Why would a person need the services of a Boddhisattva? If one accepts
> that the Paramatma is equivalent to the atma of all conscious things, then
> they have as much innate capacity to realize the self as the would-be
> Boddhisattva does.
Hmmm. it's easy to accept that, but accepting is still not being. I think
we need certain instructions to take the first steps. Then we have to do
our own best to keep on path and still not deny the "help" if it's offered.
That's why i'm asking you and others :-)
regards: Marko Manninen
bhava shankara deshikame sharaNam
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